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Post by fbczar on Jun 23, 2017 10:01:14 GMT -5
The Emotiva XMC-1 provides a “Dual-Mono” subwoofer setup option that utilizes two identical mono subwoofer outputs. When the “Dual-Mono” option is utilized Dirac Live can see two independent subwoofers. Dirac Live measures and applies its default correction curve to each subwoofer independently. It also measures and applies distance and levels to each subwoofer independently. For me, this removed the need to lower the output level of both subwoofers to fit within Dirac’s measurement parameters as was necessary using the XMC-1’s Mono subwoofer setting. You can then choose to apply a custom room curve to each subwoofer independently or as a group.
When Dirac calculates a correction filter for both subwoofers in its Mono setting it uses 9 measurement points and calculates what appears to be the combined average for both of the combined subwoofers. When Dirac calculates a correction filter for a group of two subwoofers it uses the 9 measurement points from each subwoofer for a total of 18 measurements, but seems to correct each subwoofer independently.
It seems to me that applying correction filters to each subwoofer independently would be more accurate than applying a single correction filter to a pair of subwoofers setup to appear to Dirac as one subwoofer.
I would appreciate opinions as to what you think the best practice would be relative to the situation I have described.
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Jun 23, 2017 10:27:25 GMT -5
The Emotiva XMC-1 provides a “Dual-Mono” subwoofer setup option that utilizes two identical mono subwoofer outputs. When the “Dual-Mono” option is utilized Dirac Live can see two independent subwoofers. Dirac Live measures and applies its default correction curve to each subwoofer independently. It also measures and applies distance and levels to each subwoofer independently. For me, this removed the need to lower the output level of both subwoofers to fit within Dirac’s measurement parameters as was necessary using the XMC-1’s Mono subwoofer setting. You can then choose to apply a custom room curve to each subwoofer independently or as a group. When Dirac calculates a correction filter for both subwoofers in its Mono setting it uses 9 measurement points and calculates what appears to be the combined average for both of the combined subwoofers. When Dirac calculates a correction filter for a group of two subwoofers it uses the 9 measurement points from each subwoofer for a total of 18 measurements, but seems to correct each subwoofer independently. It seems to me that applying correction filters to each subwoofer independently would be more accurate than applying a single correction filter to a pair of subwoofers setup to appear to Dirac as one subwoofer. I would appreciate opinions as to what you think the best practice would be relative to the situation I have described. When configured as dual mono or stereo subs, Dirac will not take into account how the two subs will interact with each other. It only ever hears one sub at a time. So if there is an interaction that occurs when both subs are playing, Dirac will not know about it and therefore cannot correct for it. There's pros and cons to both methods. |
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Post by millst on Jun 23, 2017 10:38:16 GMT -5
Sure, it would be more accurate for correcting each subwoofer's individual response. However, the tradeoff is that the combined response of the two is not necessarily optimal. The combined response is going to vary due to a variety of factors e.g. differing location. Best practice is to correct the overall response since that's what you actually hear.
Audyssey's SubEQ HT is the best automated approach to this. First, it time and level aligns the two subs. Then, it applies filters to correct the combined response. Dirac is a little lacking, but the same can be accomplished manually with level/phase controls on your sub amp or a miniDSP.
Taking it another level with the miniDSP, you could probably correct any gross freq response issues for each individual subwoofer when performing the level/time alignment. Maybe REQ companies will be able to improve here in the near future.
-tm
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Jun 23, 2017 10:45:22 GMT -5
Sure, it would be more accurate for correcting each subwoofer's individual response. However, the tradeoff is that the combined response of the two is not necessarily optimal. The combined response is going to vary due to a variety of factors e.g. differing location. Best practice is to correct the overall response since that's what you actually hear. Audyssey's SubEQ HT is the best automated approach to this. First, it time and level aligns the two subs. Then, it applies filters to correct the combined response. Dirac is a little lacking, but the same can be accomplished manually with level/phase controls on your sub amp or a miniDSP. Taking it another level with the miniDSP, you could probably correct any gross freq response issues for each individual subwoofer when performing the level/time alignment. Maybe REQ companies will be able to improve here in the near future. -tm That's what I do using a MinidDSP 2x4HD. |
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Post by fbczar on Jun 23, 2017 11:12:31 GMT -5
The Emotiva XMC-1 provides a “Dual-Mono” subwoofer setup option that utilizes two identical mono subwoofer outputs. When the “Dual-Mono” option is utilized Dirac Live can see two independent subwoofers. Dirac Live measures and applies its default correction curve to each subwoofer independently. It also measures and applies distance and levels to each subwoofer independently. For me, this removed the need to lower the output level of both subwoofers to fit within Dirac’s measurement parameters as was necessary using the XMC-1’s Mono subwoofer setting. You can then choose to apply a custom room curve to each subwoofer independently or as a group. When Dirac calculates a correction filter for both subwoofers in its Mono setting it uses 9 measurement points and calculates what appears to be the combined average for both of the combined subwoofers. When Dirac calculates a correction filter for a group of two subwoofers it uses the 9 measurement points from each subwoofer for a total of 18 measurements, but seems to correct each subwoofer independently. It seems to me that applying correction filters to each subwoofer independently would be more accurate than applying a single correction filter to a pair of subwoofers setup to appear to Dirac as one subwoofer. I would appreciate opinions as to what you think the best practice would be relative to the situation I have described. When configured as dual mono or stereo subs, Dirac will not take into account how the two subs will interact with each other. It only ever hears one sub at a time. So if there is an interaction that occurs when both subs are playing, Dirac will not know about it and therefore cannot correct for it. There's pros and cons to both methods. Dirac sees both subs,and corrects them individually, but you can group the two subs and apply the same correction curve to both. Is this not exactly the same thing Dirac does for all groups of speakers? Dirac appears to create a correction filter that is essentially the same for both subs.IIt looks the same as the correction for a mono pair. What about distance and levels? May I assume the sum of the levels for the subs post Dirac is a problem? |
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Jun 23, 2017 11:21:03 GMT -5
When configured as dual mono or stereo subs, Dirac will not take into account how the two subs will interact with each other. It only ever hears one sub at a time. So if there is an interaction that occurs when both subs are playing, Dirac will not know about it and therefore cannot correct for it. There's pros and cons to both methods. Dirac sees both subs,and corrects them individually, but you can group the two subs and apply the same correction curve to both. Is this not exactly the same thing Dirac does for all groups of speakers? Dirac appears to create a correction filter that is essentially the same for both subs.IIt looks the same as the correction for a mono pair. What about distance and levels? May I assume the sum of the levels for the subs post Dirac is a problem? Sometimes two or more subs handling the same content can interact with each other and create their own combined frequency response aberrations. This might only happen when both are playing simultaneously and not individually. Dirac only hears them individually and never together. So how would Dirac know how to correct for something it never hears because it only happens when both are playing the same content at the same time? That's not to say that you won't get better results one way or the other in your room with your subs so you have to see which sounds best to you. |
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Post by foggy1956 on Jun 23, 2017 11:33:56 GMT -5
Sure, it would be more accurate for correcting each subwoofer's individual response. However, the tradeoff is that the combined response of the two is not necessarily optimal. The combined response is going to vary due to a variety of factors e.g. differing location. Best practice is to correct the overall response since that's what you actually hear. Audyssey's SubEQ HT is the best automated approach to this. First, it time and level aligns the two subs. Then, it applies filters to correct the combined response. Dirac is a little lacking, but the same can be accomplished manually with level/phase controls on your sub amp or a miniDSP. Taking it another level with the miniDSP, you could probably correct any gross freq response issues for each individual subwoofer when performing the level/time alignment. Maybe REQ companies will be able to improve here in the near future. -tm That's what I do using a MinidDSP 2x4HD. Geebo, I have always built my freq filters into my mini dsp prior to running dirac. I am using dual mono inputs to 3 sub outputs, might I be better off running dirac first and then leveling the subs using the dsp? |
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Post by geebo on Jun 23, 2017 11:41:14 GMT -5
That's what I do using a MinidDSP 2x4HD. Geebo, I have always built my freq filters into my mini dsp prior to running dirac. I am using dual mono inputs to 3 sub outputs, might I be better off running dirac first and then leveling the subs using the dsp? I do it the way you do. I use REW to balance and smooth out the subs then run Dirac. But I have thought about running Dirac with dual mono first then using the MiniDSP to correct the combined response. |
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Post by foggy1956 on Jun 23, 2017 11:47:06 GMT -5
Geebo, I have always built my freq filters into my mini dsp prior to running dirac. I am using dual mono inputs to 3 sub outputs, might I be better off running dirac first and then leveling the subs using the dsp? I do it the way you do. I use REW to balance and smooth out the subs then run Dirac. But I have thought about running Dirac with dual mono first then using the MiniDSP to correct the combined response. Hadn't thought about it until now, but, it would allow REW to take a look at the result post dirac and then adjust. Very interesting. |
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Post by geebo on Jun 23, 2017 12:03:56 GMT -5
I do it the way you do. I use REW to balance and smooth out the subs then run Dirac. But I have thought about running Dirac with dual mono first then using the MiniDSP to correct the combined response. Hadn't thought about it until now, but, it would allow REW to take a look at the result post dirac and then adjust. Very interesting. Indeed. Configure as dual mono subs, run Dirac, run REW which would play the same signal through both subs at the same time and you could correct the combined result then. Dirac will have already adjusted for distance so you could skip that part in the MiniDSP plugin. I've been meaning to get around to it but just haven't been able to. |
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Post by foggy1956 on Jun 23, 2017 12:25:53 GMT -5
Hadn't thought about it until now, but, it would allow REW to take a look at the result post dirac and then adjust. Very interesting. Indeed. Configure as dual mono subs, run Dirac, run REW which would play the same signal through both subs at the same time and you could correct the combined result then. Dirac will have already adjusted for distance so you could skip that part in the MiniDSP plugin. I've been meaning to get around to it but just haven't been able to. Already time aligned in the mini dsp, will keep that setting. Had to order a new mic stand, will let you know how it works out when the time comes.😎 |
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Post by geebo on Jun 23, 2017 12:39:25 GMT -5
Indeed. Configure as dual mono subs, run Dirac, run REW which would play the same signal through both subs at the same time and you could correct the combined result then. Dirac will have already adjusted for distance so you could skip that part in the MiniDSP plugin. I've been meaning to get around to it but just haven't been able to. Already time aligned in the mini dsp, will keep that setting. Had to order a new mic stand, will let you know how it works out when the time comes.😎 Dirac will still check the distances and change them if it feels necessary. I'll be interested in hearing how it works out. |
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Post by fbczar on Jun 23, 2017 12:45:37 GMT -5
Already time aligned in the mini dsp, will keep that setting. Had to order a new mic stand, will let you know how it works out when the time comes.😎 Dirac will still check the distances and change them if it feels necessary. I'll be interested in hearing how it works out. geebo, My room is symmetrical and the placement of the subs is symmetrical. The subs are exactly the same distance from the MLP. Do you think that would make a difference with the dual mono mode relative to Dirac? |
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Post by geebo on Jun 23, 2017 12:56:21 GMT -5
Dirac will still check the distances and change them if it feels necessary. I'll be interested in hearing how it works out. geebo, My room is symmetrical and the placement of the subs is symmetrical. The subs are exactly the same distance from the MLP. Do you think that would make a difference with the dual mono mode relative to Dirac? I wouldn't think so but I don't know enough about room nodes and sub interactions at different frequencies and locations and stuff like that. Maybe someone else here can chime in. Can you run REW with each sub and then with both? |
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Post by foggy1956 on Jun 23, 2017 14:18:48 GMT -5
Dirac will still check the distances and change them if it feels necessary. I'll be interested in hearing how it works out. geebo, My room is symmetrical and the placement of the subs is symmetrical. The subs are exactly the same distance from the MLP. Do you think that would make a difference with the dual mono mode relative to Dirac? Do you have 1 sub in the front and 1 in the back also? |
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Post by fbczar on Jun 24, 2017 19:16:00 GMT -5
geebo, My room is symmetrical and the placement of the subs is symmetrical. The subs are exactly the same distance from the MLP. Do you think that would make a difference with the dual mono mode relative to Dirac? Do you have 1 sub in the front and 1 in the back also? No. The subs are in the front of the room to the outside of the left and right front speakers next to the side walls. |
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Post by notanotherusername on Dec 1, 2019 13:34:43 GMT -5
If you're using Dirac, do you have to use a RCA splitter to run dual subs? I added a second sub, ran Dirac and after setup I don't seem to be getting any audio from the second sub. I have the second sub plugged into the open RCA.
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Post by fbczar on Dec 2, 2019 0:59:27 GMT -5
If you're using Dirac, do you have to use a RCA splitter to run dual subs? I added a second sub, ran Dirac and after setup I don't seem to be getting any audio from the second sub. I have the second sub plugged into the open RCA. An XMC-1 has two subwoofer outputs. You can connect one sub to each output, but you must select dual mono or stereo in the setup menu. |
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Post by notanotherusername on Dec 2, 2019 7:28:57 GMT -5
If you're using Dirac, do you have to use a RCA splitter to run dual subs? I added a second sub, ran Dirac and after setup I don't seem to be getting any audio from the second sub. I have the second sub plugged into the open RCA. An XMC-1 has two subwoofer outputs. You can connect one sub to each output, but you must select dual mono or stereo in the setup menu. Thanks. Last night I went and set up the subs as dual mono on Preset 1, switched back to Dirac and noticed that modification option also existed for the Dirac settings. I assumed, incorrectly, that you could not modify the Dirac settings, so I never even thought about selecting that option. |
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Post by Talley on Dec 5, 2019 9:13:25 GMT -5
This is no different than left/right speakers. You correct for time/phasing/frequency with dirac but when combined you need to correct the room and speaker placements.
Your not doing left/right speakers together are you? no... ok then keep the subs separate. In dual mono the subs are treated just the same as stereo. Your left channel and left surrounds and back left or whatever you have setup for surround system everything on the left goes to the left sub.... same for the right.
They don't see the same signalling except from maybe the LFE output which at the end of the day your room/sub placement has a bigger affect than what any correction can provide.
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