geebo
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"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
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Post by geebo on Dec 19, 2017 14:17:47 GMT -5
Agreed..... unlike ticks and pops, which I find amazingly annoying and distracting, at least tape hiss is innocuous. Y’all are most welcome to come hear what a very good vinyl playback system sounds like! Ill buy you a box of Rice Crispys if you must insist on having them! 🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼 Why make more of the noise that's objectionable by adding Rice Krispies? A TT makes plenty of it all by itself. You might be able to mask much of it with loud music but during quiet passages and between tracks it is annoying as anything I've heard in music reproduction.
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Post by mgbpuff on Dec 19, 2017 14:22:36 GMT -5
Who knows what we could have got out of vinyl if analog technology had not been completely derailed by digital. There were high Q click and pop removers, There were extremely low tracking force cartridges (lower that most of the new ones today). There were stylus shapes designed to extract the highest frequencies from different areas of the tracks. And finally there was an analog laser player that make vinyl playing non contact and which if developed may have led to non RIAA cut records because a laser would not bounce out of a track. Then there was tape of which open reel (the larger, the better) picked up the magnetically stored music in a sort of non contact method. Closed loop encoding methods were introduced, Dolby B and C, DBX and others to reduce hiss. New tape coatings were developed time and time again that improved response. Analog could have been technically developed more and more, but we went digital and analog, although not dead, is limping along on old technology.
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Post by teaman on Dec 19, 2017 14:28:52 GMT -5
Y’all are most welcome to come hear what a very good vinyl playback system sounds like! Ill buy you a box of Rice Crispys if you must insist on having them! 🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼 Why make more of the noise that's objectionable by adding Rice Krispies? A TT makes plenty of it all by itself. I know some people still love to be involved in flipping over the record and such but to me the turntable is a thing of the past, used as an item by hippies and hipsters of today that think that a piece of nostalgia is cool to have as a conversation piece. I know Nick doesn't fit into that category but ticks and pops are inherent to the vinyl/needle association.
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novisnick
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CEO Secret Monoblock Society
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Post by novisnick on Dec 19, 2017 14:50:06 GMT -5
Y’all are most welcome to come hear what a very good vinyl playback system sounds like! Ill buy you a box of Rice Crispys if you must insist on having them! 🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼 Why make more of the noise that's objectionable by adding Rice Krispies? A TT makes plenty of it all by itself. You might be able to mask much of it with loud music but during quiet passages and between tracks it is annoying as anything I've heard in music reproduction. Im going to try and be civil about this statement, But WTF are you talking about? Quiet passages ARE quite and between tracks are black and silent as the night. ( 90% of the time )
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geebo
Emo VIPs
"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
Posts: 24,161
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Post by geebo on Dec 19, 2017 15:02:32 GMT -5
Why make more of the noise that's objectionable by adding Rice Krispies? A TT makes plenty of it all by itself. You might be able to mask much of it with loud music but during quiet passages and between tracks it is annoying as anything I've heard in music reproduction. Im going to try and be civil about this statement, But WTF are you talking about? Quiet passages ARE quite and between tracks are black and silent as the night. ( 90% of the time ) View Attachment Don't know why you can't hear it, but it's there and only gets worse. Silent is the last word I'd use to describe it.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 19, 2017 15:39:00 GMT -5
I must have missed something - did Emotiva change their mind and decide the DC-2 is going to be a turntable? Mark
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Post by monkumonku on Dec 19, 2017 15:42:33 GMT -5
Who knows what we could have got out of vinyl if analog technology had not been completely derailed by digital. There were high Q click and pop removers, There were extremely low tracking force cartridges (lower that most of the new ones today). There were stylus shapes designed to extract the highest frequencies from different areas of the tracks. And finally there was an analog laser player that make vinyl playing non contact and which if developed may have led to non RIAA cut records because a laser would not bounce out of a track. Then there was tape of which open reel (the larger, the better) picked up the magnetically stored music in a sort of non contact method. Closed loop encoding methods were introduced, Dolby B and C, DBX and others to reduce hiss. New tape coatings were developed time and time again that improved response. Analog could have been technically developed more and more, but we went digital and analog, although not dead, is limping along on old technology. True, but the things you mention above to overcome the inherent limitations of vinyl or tape are all examples of added processing. Isn't one of the "virtues" of vinyl supposed to be its purity? How vinyl is superior because there is no adulteration of the signal by the evil digital realm? Yet in order to make vinyl sound "good" it has to be subjected to all these finicky processes like being put through an RIAA curve, played on a $2,000 turntable with a $1,500 cartridge, have a tick and pop filter, adjust the anti-skating and tracking to be baby bear right, etc. What difference does it make if the added processing is analog or digital? Processing still adds another layer to the chain. The inherent limitation of digital is the sampling rate. But in my opinion a normal CD sampling rate is in itself sufficient, and for those who argue it isn't because their ears are more golden than mine, there are higher rates available that, when playing back the exact same source file through either analog or digital, I bet no one could tell the difference.
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Post by monkumonku on Dec 19, 2017 15:43:40 GMT -5
I must have missed something - did Emotiva change their mind and decide the DC-2 is going to be a turntable? Mark That's why it is good that Boom is the OP. He's good natured enough not to mind people trampling all over his subject.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Dec 19, 2017 16:44:14 GMT -5
I must have missed something - did Emotiva change their mind and decide the DC-2 is going to be a turntable? Mark TT with Full MQA decoding! 😋🥓
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Post by mgbpuff on Dec 19, 2017 17:04:32 GMT -5
So you think that reproducing the sound of a violin can be done by a piston cone vibrating at the same frequency or a reed instrument radiating straight out into the audience with its unique shape and angle reproduced exactly by the same cone device or a flat planar device or even a horn of non identical dimensions or material and all this radiating into a room of different dimensions differing material, and differing accoutrements. I think not - we will never get there!
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 19, 2017 18:12:19 GMT -5
Hmmmmm..... So, once you've converted that analog source to digital so you can remove the ticks and pops, you really don't have much use for the analog original any more..... In fact, it sort of seems like it would make sense to take the one best analog copy, convert it to digital, get rid of the last few ticks and pops, then just make a digital copy for everyone.... After all, unlike with analog media, it's dead simple to make perfect digital copies that really are exactly alike..... Who knows what we could have got out of vinyl if analog technology had not been completely derailed by digital. There were high Q click and pop removers, There were extremely low tracking force cartridges (lower that most of the new ones today). There were stylus shapes designed to extract the highest frequencies from different areas of the tracks. And finally there was an analog laser player that make vinyl playing non contact and which if developed may have led to non RIAA cut records because a laser would not bounce out of a track. Then there was tape of which open reel (the larger, the better) picked up the magnetically stored music in a sort of non contact method. Closed loop encoding methods were introduced, Dolby B and C, DBX and others to reduce hiss. New tape coatings were developed time and time again that improved response. Analog could have been technically developed more and more, but we went digital and analog, although not dead, is limping along on old technology. True, but the things you mention above to overcome the inherent limitations of vinyl or tape are all examples of added processing. Isn't one of the "virtues" of vinyl supposed to be its purity? How vinyl is superior because there is no adulteration of the signal by the evil digital realm? Yet in order to make vinyl sound "good" it has to be subjected to all these finicky processes like being put through an RIAA curve, played on a $2,000 turntable with a $1,500 cartridge, have a tick and pop filter, adjust the anti-skating and tracking to be baby bear right, etc. What difference does it make if the added processing is analog or digital? Processing still adds another layer to the chain. The inherent limitation of digital is the sampling rate. But in my opinion a normal CD sampling rate is in itself sufficient, and for those who argue it isn't because their ears are more golden than mine, there are higher rates available that, when playing back the exact same source file through either analog or digital, I bet no one could tell the difference.
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novisnick
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CEO Secret Monoblock Society
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Post by novisnick on Dec 19, 2017 18:29:58 GMT -5
Hmmmmm..... So, once you've converted that analog source to digital so you can remove the ticks and pops, you really don't have much use for the analog original any more..... In fact, it sort of seems like it would make sense to take the one best analog copy, convert it to digital, get rid of the last few ticks and pops, then just make a digital copy for everyone.... After all, unlike with analog media, it's dead simple to make perfect digital copies that really are exactly alike..... True, but the things you mention above to overcome the inherent limitations of vinyl or tape are all examples of added processing. Isn't one of the "virtues" of vinyl supposed to be its purity? How vinyl is superior because there is no adulteration of the signal by the evil digital realm? Yet in order to make vinyl sound "good" it has to be subjected to all these finicky processes like being put through an RIAA curve, played on a $2,000 turntable with a $1,500 cartridge, have a tick and pop filter, adjust the anti-skating and tracking to be baby bear right, etc. What difference does it make if the added processing is analog or digital? Processing still adds another layer to the chain. The inherent limitation of digital is the sampling rate. But in my opinion a normal CD sampling rate is in itself sufficient, and for those who argue it isn't because their ears are more golden than mine, there are higher rates available that, when playing back the exact same source file through either analog or digital, I bet no one could tell the difference. You do have a point @keithl , but I don’t convert my Analog data, I sit back and enjoy! As for making exact duplicates,,,,,,,,😎 even twins are a little different! LOL In some ways more than others!
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Post by bigmule on Dec 19, 2017 18:38:06 GMT -5
Agreed..... unlike ticks and pops, which I find amazingly annoying and distracting, at least tape hiss is innocuous. Y’all are most welcome to come hear what a very good vinyl playback system sounds like! Ill buy you a box of Rice Crispys if you must insist on having them! 🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼 So many people confuse convenience equating to better performance. If its easier, it must be better!!! For instance..bluetooth headphones and satellite radio are convenient, but surely not better fidelity. I haven’t heard MQA, so have no feedback on that... Never fails, someone that doesn’t like viny sound always brings up the point of record care, and the debatable issue of “record wear”....makes me laugh...I have albums that are 30 years old and play perfectly fine. Listen to whatever media you want, I could give a hoot...I listen to music on all sorts of sources...but I agree with nick...that most people that are so opposed to vinyl, have yet to hear a decent playback. I think it all gets messed up in mastering process if the are using the same source for different media...gives all media a bad rap. I have many XRCD’s that sound wonderful!!! So when is that DC-2 coming anyways...
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Dec 19, 2017 19:21:34 GMT -5
Y’all are most welcome to come hear what a very good vinyl playback system sounds like! Ill buy you a box of Rice Crispys if you must insist on having them! 🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼 So many people confuse convenience equating to better performance. If its easier, it must be better!!! For instance..bluetooth headphones and satellite radio are convenient, but surely not better fidelity. I haven’t heard MQA, so have no feedback on that... Never fails, someone that doesn’t like viny sound always brings up the point of record care, and the debatable issue of “record wear”....makes me laugh...I have albums that are 30 years old and play perfectly fine. Listen to whatever media you want, I could give a hoot...I listen to music on all sorts of sources...but I agree with nick...that most people that are so opposed to vinyl, have yet to hear a decent playback. I think it all gets messed up in mastering process if the are using the same source for different media...gives all media a bad rap. I have many XRCD’s that sound wonderful!!! So when is that DC-2 coming anyways... Tred carefully my friend!,,,,,,,they may brand you Crazy Too! 😜
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Post by boomzilla on Dec 20, 2017 9:56:17 GMT -5
A good vinyl playback system is, IMHO, the total equal (and possibly the slight superior) of the BEST of top-quality digital playback. The problems (and costs) of getting to a good vinyl playback system, though, are significantly steeper than the problems (and costs) of having a top quality digital one.
Even if we ignore the cost of the reproduction equipment, there is the issue of software. Unless you have a lifetime collection of vinyl in good condition, finding top quality records is a real challenge. Not all titles are available as remanufactures. In fact, only a VERY few of the records ever produced are available now at all (maybe five percent?). And finding used vinyl in good condition has become a highly competitive sport, with no guarantee of success (at any price).
Setup of a vinyl system is not for the fumble-fingered or the lazy (tracking-force, anti-skate, cartridge-alignment, azimuth, stylus-cleaning, record-cleaning, etc.). So vinyl isn't a hobby - it's a calling. Some hear the pull of the shiny black discs, some don't.
I wouldn't criticize the analog aficionados - or those who love reel-to-reel tapes, either. They get amazing results from their analog rigs. But I wouldn't criticize the "digital-uber-alles" crowd either. I've heard amazing sounds from even modest red-book CDs. You pays your money, you takes your choice. It's a free country, and which playback system you choose is your own business.
I would say that both the price of excellent analog AND digital systems are coming down significantly. Some inexpensive turntables now have the wow and rumble specs that were unattainable at any cost in years past. Some inexpensive DACs (and I mean really inexpensive, like the Emotiva PT-100) are rivaling the best you could buy at any price not too many years ago. So as prices converge, performance does the same. It's a good time to be a music lover - analog or digital.
Boomzilla
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 20, 2017 11:00:25 GMT -5
There's only one thing I would disagree with there.... and it's your claim that "modern turntables now have... specs previously unattainable at any price". A very long time ago, at various times, I owned several AR turntables (the same Acoustic Research who made speakers). AR made several turntable models at different times; the first models were the just "the AR turntable", and then the AR-XA (no cueing) and AR-XB (with cueing). They were all belt driven, with a massive solid aluminum platter, and a line-operated AC synchronous motor (the AC line frequency is actually very accurate). They were quite economical (below $100 in early years - which, even in 1970's $$$, is pretty cheap compared to today's prices). And their wow, flutter, and rumble specs were ridiculously good.... Also, while their isolation from low frequencies like footsteps was lousy, their isolation from vibration was crazy good. (By which I mean that one of their demos was to have someone drive nails into the wooden base of the turntable WHILE A RECORD WAS PLAYING... and, no, it wouldn't skip.) Modern turntables have gotten much cooler, and have a lot more features, and much better arms, but the basic "spin the platter smoothly and quietly" performance really isn't especially impressive these days. (Or, let's say, you have to pay an awful lot of money for good performance these days... and it's amazing how many really expensive turntables forget to provide basic wow, flutter, and rumble specs.) Of course, you should also bear in mind that the limitation is often the vinyl itself anyway ... (With vinyl, every imperfection, from the consistency of the plastic, to the flatness of the disc, affects the sound directly; with a CD, as long as you can get the correct bits off the plastic intact, nothing else much matters.) A good vinyl playback system is, IMHO, the total equal (and possibly the slight superior) of the BEST of top-quality digital playback. The problems (and costs) of getting to a good vinyl playback system, though, are significantly steeper than the problems (and costs) of having a top quality digital one. Even if we ignore the cost of the reproduction equipment, there is the issue of software. Unless you have a lifetime collection of vinyl in good condition, finding top quality records is a real challenge. Not all titles are available as remanufactures. In fact, only a VERY few of the records ever produced are available now at all (maybe five percent?). And finding used vinyl in good condition has become a highly competitive sport, with no guarantee of success (at any price). Setup of a vinyl system is not for the fumble-fingered or the lazy (tracking-force, anti-skate, cartridge-alignment, azimuth, stylus-cleaning, record-cleaning, etc.). So vinyl isn't a hobby - it's a calling. Some hear the pull of the shiny black discs, some don't. I wouldn't criticize the analog aficionados - or those who love reel-to-reel tapes, either. They get amazing results from their analog rigs. But I wouldn't criticize the "digital-uber-alles" crowd either. I've heard amazing sounds from even modest red-book CDs. You pays your money, you takes your choice. It's a free country, and which playback system you choose is your own business. I would say that both the price of excellent analog AND digital systems are coming down significantly. Some inexpensive turntables now have the wow and rumble specs that were unattainable at any cost in years past. Some inexpensive DACs (and I mean really inexpensive, like the Emotiva PT-100) are rivaling the best you could buy at any price not too many years ago. So as prices converge, performance does the same. It's a good time to be a music lover - analog or digital. Boomzilla
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Dec 20, 2017 12:19:47 GMT -5
First off, I agree entirely - some people equate convenience with quality. For others, even though they may not equate the two, they may simply consider convenience to be a higher priority. (If you listen while jogging in the park, then an MP3 player may be good enough, but vinyl just plain isn't going to work.) However, as someone who had quite a few albums, and all the approved record cleaning paraphernalia, I have to disagree about record wear and damage.... Records may not NECESSARILY wear out, at least not usually to a significant degree, but neither are they "forever perfect". For example, I personally find record ticks and pops to be incredibly distracting... they were THE main thing I found annoying with vinyl. To me, they're sort of like a big squishy bug right in the middle of the windshield. Yes, I can see around that bug just fine, but my eye is going to keep getting drawn to it until I stop the car, get out, and wipe the window. Back when I had vinyl, if I had a record playing , and I heard a click or pop, I would flinch a little bit... Then I would get up, clean it, start it again, and see if the problem was gone. If not, it probably meant a trip back to the store to buy a "good copy". And, if it was one of my favorite albums, I probably bought a spare copy to begin with - just in case. I would add a third factor that I find to be the most compelling one with digital audio: CONSISTENCY. A digital copy may not be perfect - but at least I can ensure that it will remain perfectly THE SAME over time. I like the fact that, however good it sounds today, every digital file I have will remain EXACTLY the same FOREVER. I can make a copy of a copy of a copy, send it to Alaska via a slow antique modem, Zip it, unZip it, and it will still be EXACTLY the same. And, if I RIP a CD, I have a program that automatically takes a checksum of each track, compares them to an online database, and confirms that they're all perfect. In fact, I can hit a few buttons, and my computer will run a test, and confirm with absolute certainty that every track in my collection is perfect. (And, of course, I can back the whole thing up..... or I can actually use a program that will allow me to not only check everything, but stored extra information, and will automatically fix anything that's gotten damaged.) And, if I DO hear a tick or pop, probably due to some sort of computer glitch or hardware problem with my DAC... I KNOW that the problem isn't with the recording.... and it will be perfect again once I locate and fix the problem. I've been freed of wondering if, the next time I play it, my favorite album will have picked up a stray tick.... or gotten scratched or warped. And I don't have to wonder if the disc I've got was from the beginning of the stamper run or the end... and if, just maybe, a different copy, from a different store, might be a touch better. And, face it, would you really be willing to bet that you could find an album that has ZERO ticks or pops on it? I think I'd be willing to bet $500 right now that you can't. Y’all are most welcome to come hear what a very good vinyl playback system sounds like! Ill buy you a box of Rice Crispys if you must insist on having them! 🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼 So many people confuse convenience equating to better performance. If its easier, it must be better!!! For instance..bluetooth headphones and satellite radio are convenient, but surely not better fidelity. I haven’t heard MQA, so have no feedback on that... Never fails, someone that doesn’t like viny sound always brings up the point of record care, and the debatable issue of “record wear”....makes me laugh...I have albums that are 30 years old and play perfectly fine. Listen to whatever media you want, I could give a hoot...I listen to music on all sorts of sources...but I agree with nick...that most people that are so opposed to vinyl, have yet to hear a decent playback. I think it all gets messed up in mastering process if the are using the same source for different media...gives all media a bad rap. I have many XRCD’s that sound wonderful!!! So when is that DC-2 coming anyways...
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,213
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Post by novisnick on Dec 20, 2017 12:47:00 GMT -5
First off, I agree entirely - some people equate convenience with quality. For others, even though they may not equate the two, they may simply consider convenience to be a higher priority. (If you listen while jogging in the park, then an MP3 player may be good enough, but vinyl just plain isn't going to work.) However, as someone who had quite a few albums, and all the approved record cleaning paraphernalia, I have to disagree about record wear and damage.... Records may not NECESSARILY wear out, at least not usually to a significant degree, but neither are they "forever perfect". For example, I personally find record ticks and pops to be incredibly distracting... they were THE main thing I found annoying with vinyl. To me, they're sort of like a big squishy bug right in the middle of the windshield. Yes, I can see around that bug just fine, but my eye is going to keep getting drawn to it until I stop the car, get out, and wipe the window. Back when I had vinyl, if I had a record playing , and I heard a click or pop, I would flinch a little bit... Then I would get up, clean it, start it again, and see if the problem was gone. If not, it probably meant a trip back to the store to buy a "good copy". And, if it was one of my favorite albums, I probably bought a spare copy to begin with - just in case. I would add a third factor that I find to be the most compelling one with digital audio: CONSISTENCY. A digital copy may not be perfect - but at least I can ensure that it will remain perfectly THE SAME over time. I like the fact that, however good it sounds today, every digital file I have will remain EXACTLY the same FOREVER. I can make a copy of a copy of a copy, send it to Alaska via a slow antique modem, Zip it, unZip it, and it will still be EXACTLY the same. And, if I RIP a CD, I have a program that automatically takes a checksum of each track, compares them to an online database, and confirms that they're all perfect. In fact, I can hit a few buttons, and my computer will run a test, and confirm with absolute certainty that every track in my collection is perfect. (And, of course, I can back the whole thing up..... or I can actually use a program that will allow me to not only check everything, but stored extra information, and will automatically fix anything that's gotten damaged.) And, if I DO hear a tick or pop, probably due to some sort of computer glitch or hardware problem with my DAC... I KNOW that the problem isn't with the recording.... and it will be perfect again once I locate and fix the problem. I've been freed of wondering if, the next time I play it, my favorite album will have picked up a stray tick.... or gotten scratched or warped. And I don't have to wonder if the disc I've got was from the beginning of the stamper run or the end... and if, just maybe, a different copy, from a different store, might be a touch better. And, face it, would you really be willing to bet that you could find an album that has ZERO ticks or pops on it? I think I'd be willing to bet $500 right now that you can't. So many people confuse convenience equating to better performance. If its easier, it must be better!!! For instance..bluetooth headphones and satellite radio are convenient, but surely not better fidelity. I haven’t heard MQA, so have no feedback on that... Never fails, someone that doesn’t like viny sound always brings up the point of record care, and the debatable issue of “record wear”....makes me laugh...I have albums that are 30 years old and play perfectly fine. Listen to whatever media you want, I could give a hoot...I listen to music on all sorts of sources...but I agree with nick...that most people that are so opposed to vinyl, have yet to hear a decent playback. I think it all gets messed up in mastering process if the are using the same source for different media...gives all media a bad rap. I have many XRCD’s that sound wonderful!!! So when is that DC-2 coming anyways... I DO realize its Emotivas’ forum, but would you give it a rest! You don’t care for vinyl! I don’t care! I do, that is all! poor horse!😢
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Post by bigmule on Dec 20, 2017 13:05:32 GMT -5
First off, I agree entirely - some people equate convenience with quality. For others, even though they may not equate the two, they may simply consider convenience to be a higher priority. (If you listen while jogging in the park, then an MP3 player may be good enough, but vinyl just plain isn't going to work.) However, as someone who had quite a few albums, and all the approved record cleaning paraphernalia, I have to disagree about record wear and damage.... Records may not NECESSARILY wear out, at least not usually to a significant degree, but neither are they "forever perfect". For example, I personally find record ticks and pops to be incredibly distracting... they were THE main thing I found annoying with vinyl. To me, they're sort of like a big squishy bug right in the middle of the windshield. Yes, I can see around that bug just fine, but my eye is going to keep getting drawn to it until I stop the car, get out, and wipe the window. Back when I had vinyl, if I had a record playing , and I heard a click or pop, I would flinch a little bit... Then I would get up, clean it, start it again, and see if the problem was gone. If not, it probably meant a trip back to the store to buy a "good copy". And, if it was one of my favorite albums, I probably bought a spare copy to begin with - just in case. I would add a third factor that I find to be the most compelling one with digital audio: CONSISTENCY. A digital copy may not be perfect - but at least I can ensure that it will remain perfectly THE SAME over time. I like the fact that, however good it sounds today, every digital file I have will remain EXACTLY the same FOREVER. I can make a copy of a copy of a copy, send it to Alaska via a slow antique modem, Zip it, unZip it, and it will still be EXACTLY the same. And, if I RIP a CD, I have a program that automatically takes a checksum of each track, compares them to an online database, and confirms that they're all perfect. In fact, I can hit a few buttons, and my computer will run a test, and confirm with absolute certainty that every track in my collection is perfect. (And, of course, I can back the whole thing up..... or I can actually use a program that will allow me to not only check everything, but stored extra information, and will automatically fix anything that's gotten damaged.) And, if I DO hear a tick or pop, probably due to some sort of computer glitch or hardware problem with my DAC... I KNOW that the problem isn't with the recording.... and it will be perfect again once I locate and fix the problem. I've been freed of wondering if, the next time I play it, my favorite album will have picked up a stray tick.... or gotten scratched or warped. And I don't have to wonder if the disc I've got was from the beginning of the stamper run or the end... and if, just maybe, a different copy, from a different store, might be a touch better. And, face it, would you really be willing to bet that you could find an album that has ZERO ticks or pops on it? I think I'd be willing to bet $500 right now that you can't. So many people confuse convenience equating to better performance. If its easier, it must be better!!! For instance..bluetooth headphones and satellite radio are convenient, but surely not better fidelity. I haven’t heard MQA, so have no feedback on that... Never fails, someone that doesn’t like viny sound always brings up the point of record care, and the debatable issue of “record wear”....makes me laugh...I have albums that are 30 years old and play perfectly fine. Listen to whatever media you want, I could give a hoot...I listen to music on all sorts of sources...but I agree with nick...that most people that are so opposed to vinyl, have yet to hear a decent playback. I think it all gets messed up in mastering process if the are using the same source for different media...gives all media a bad rap. I have many XRCD’s that sound wonderful!!! So when is that DC-2 coming anyways... Keith, I thoroughly appreciate your feedback, think you are a bastion of knowledge, and enjoy reading your responses on this forum. Honestly, you are one of the reasons I love Emotiva. Please keep on keeping on !!!! Your explanation of why you prefer digital makes good sense, and the last thing I am trying to do is convince anyone something is better, especially in this dominantly subjective audio business. I don’t mind the ticks/pops...and I’m enjoying listening with headphones more and more....weird huh? So I guess I shouldn’t be holding my breath any longer waitibg for the debut of a “Keith Signature” moving coil cartridge 🤡🤡
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geebo
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"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
Posts: 24,161
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Post by geebo on Dec 20, 2017 13:11:21 GMT -5
First off, I agree entirely - some people equate convenience with quality. For others, even though they may not equate the two, they may simply consider convenience to be a higher priority. (If you listen while jogging in the park, then an MP3 player may be good enough, but vinyl just plain isn't going to work.) However, as someone who had quite a few albums, and all the approved record cleaning paraphernalia, I have to disagree about record wear and damage.... Records may not NECESSARILY wear out, at least not usually to a significant degree, but neither are they "forever perfect". For example, I personally find record ticks and pops to be incredibly distracting... they were THE main thing I found annoying with vinyl. To me, they're sort of like a big squishy bug right in the middle of the windshield. Yes, I can see around that bug just fine, but my eye is going to keep getting drawn to it until I stop the car, get out, and wipe the window. Back when I had vinyl, if I had a record playing , and I heard a click or pop, I would flinch a little bit... Then I would get up, clean it, start it again, and see if the problem was gone. If not, it probably meant a trip back to the store to buy a "good copy". And, if it was one of my favorite albums, I probably bought a spare copy to begin with - just in case. I would add a third factor that I find to be the most compelling one with digital audio: CONSISTENCY. A digital copy may not be perfect - but at least I can ensure that it will remain perfectly THE SAME over time. I like the fact that, however good it sounds today, every digital file I have will remain EXACTLY the same FOREVER. I can make a copy of a copy of a copy, send it to Alaska via a slow antique modem, Zip it, unZip it, and it will still be EXACTLY the same. And, if I RIP a CD, I have a program that automatically takes a checksum of each track, compares them to an online database, and confirms that they're all perfect. In fact, I can hit a few buttons, and my computer will run a test, and confirm with absolute certainty that every track in my collection is perfect. (And, of course, I can back the whole thing up..... or I can actually use a program that will allow me to not only check everything, but stored extra information, and will automatically fix anything that's gotten damaged.) And, if I DO hear a tick or pop, probably due to some sort of computer glitch or hardware problem with my DAC... I KNOW that the problem isn't with the recording.... and it will be perfect again once I locate and fix the problem. I've been freed of wondering if, the next time I play it, my favorite album will have picked up a stray tick.... or gotten scratched or warped. And I don't have to wonder if the disc I've got was from the beginning of the stamper run or the end... and if, just maybe, a different copy, from a different store, might be a touch better. And, face it, would you really be willing to bet that you could find an album that has ZERO ticks or pops on it? I think I'd be willing to bet $500 right now that you can't. I DO realize its Emotivas’ forum, but would you give it a rest! You don’t care for vinyl! I don’t care! I do, that is all! poor horse!😢 Listen yo vinyl all you want, Nick. I don't think Keith cares and I certainly don't care if you do, either. Heck, I even bought my granddaughter a vinyl record for Christmas and I've given her some of my old ones in the past. But when you tell us something we disagree with be prepared for counterpoints. Nobody is telling you not to listen to vinyl. Cheers.
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