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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 6, 2017 10:31:32 GMT -5
People worry about the silliest things. You know, if idle power consumption is an issue for you, then turn off the power switch on the back, or unplug it. That’s ‘standby power’, idle power is when the power is on and no signal is present (I defined this when I first mentioned it). I contend that most of the time our equipment is on, the current draw is close to this number and hence a relevant piece of information. If you find it silly just don’t look at it. |
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Post by DYohn on Oct 6, 2017 12:40:10 GMT -5
People worry about the silliest things. You know, if idle power consumption is an issue for you, then turn off the power switch on the back, or unplug it. That’s ‘standby power’, idle power is when the power is on and no signal is present (I defined this when I first mentioned it). I contend that most of the time our equipment is on, the current draw is close to this number and hence a relevant piece of information. If you find it silly just don’t look at it. Like I said, if it's relevant to you then do your research and figure it out. But yep, it's a silly thing to be concerned about unless you are simply trying to be super green, or if you live under conditions that make your home ampacity limited. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Oct 6, 2017 12:40:57 GMT -5
And it is exceptionally silly to try and make it a point of contention on an internet forum.  |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 6, 2017 12:43:11 GMT -5
I’ve been reluctant to join the discussion on ‘Class’ efficiencies in THIS thread, however I think the information below gives us an example of the current state of affairs. That is, we have no specific data on individual models we are considering, and can only make generalizations based on the Class of the amp, and/or its power supply design. I think it’s not too much to ask for better data than this (though I’m not claiming this is the best available, just an example). Here is the original Audioholics article the info is from, it’s actually about amplifier classes, but included a table on pros, cons, and efficiency, interestingly they used the XPR-1 as an example of Class H (I know some claim G&H aren’t ‘Classes’, but the industry generally presents them that way). www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-classesAmplifier Class: A Typical Efficiency: ~15-35% Pros: No possibility of crossover distortion. Cons: Inefficiency = heat, Single ended designs prone to hum and higher levels of distortion. Amplifier Class: B Typical Efficiency: ~70% Pros: Relatively high efficiency. Cons: Potential for significant amounts of crossover distortion and compromised fidelity Amplifier Class: A/B Typical Efficiency: ~50-70% Pros: More efficient than Class A, Relatively Inexpensive, Crossover distortion can be rendered moot. Cons: Efficiency is good, but not great. Amplifier Class: G & H Typical Efficiency: ~50-70% Pros: Improved efficiency over Class A/B. Cons: Costlier than Class A/B but higher power levels are achievable in a smaller form factor. Amplifier Class: D Typical Efficiency: >90% Pros: Best possible efficiency, Light weight. Cons: Pulse width modulators operating at relatively low frequencies can compromise high frequency audio reproduction, Some designs produce varying sound quality depending on speaker load. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 6, 2017 12:46:49 GMT -5
That’s ‘standby power’, idle power is when the power is on and no signal is present (I defined this when I first mentioned it). I contend that most of the time our equipment is on, the current draw is close to this number and hence a relevant piece of information. If you find it silly just don’t look at it. Like I said, if it's relevant to you then do your research and figure it out. But yep, it's a silly thing to be concerned about unless you are simply trying to be super green, or if you live under conditions that make your home ampacity limited. Again, the point of this thread is that there is no information to research, manufacturers don’t provide idle or efficiency ratings. And why is an Internet thread a bad place to promote adding another spec to equipment ratings? Isn’t that what forums are for? I just don’t think information is silly, I’m baffled why anyone would make an effort to suppress it. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Oct 6, 2017 12:48:49 GMT -5
Because it just doesn't matter to the vast majority of users.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 6, 2017 12:56:01 GMT -5
Because it just doesn't matter to the vast majority of users. I will agree with that, but maybe it’s because they aren’t aware of how much difference there could be. You may be knowledgeable about those parameters that you feel are important, or don’t care as long as it sounds good (which is very valid). If there are many threads for ‘the vast majority’, should there not also be one (or more) for those who want additional information? |
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Post by DYohn on Oct 6, 2017 13:48:35 GMT -5
Because it just doesn't matter to the vast majority of users. I will agree with that, but maybe it’s because they aren’t aware of how much difference there could be. You may be knowledgeable about those parameters that you feel are important, or don’t care as long as it sounds good (which is very valid). If there are many threads for ‘the vast majority’, should there not also be one (or more) for those who want additional information? Like I said several pages ago, "All ratings are meaningless to the user who does not know how to interpret them... " |
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Post by leonski on Oct 6, 2017 13:55:20 GMT -5
The efficiencies quoted in the audioholics article are MAXIMUM. At more reasonable levels power efficiency drops. Except for 'A' amps which use the same amount of power all the time.
The 'd'amp quote is for output section, not plug-to-speaker which is the only way it'll actually work.
Real world efficiencies of amps IN SYSTEM are very close at the levels they are actually run at. And are exactly ZERO with no music playing.
Want to cut your power bill? Buy more sensitive speakers and an appropriately powerful amp.
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Post by lehighvalleyjeff on Oct 6, 2017 14:04:50 GMT -5
Because it just doesn't matter to the vast majority of users. I will agree with that, but maybe it’s because they aren’t aware of how much difference there could be. You may be knowledgeable about those parameters that you feel are important, or don’t care as long as it sounds good (which is very valid). If there are many threads for ‘the vast majority’, should there not also be one (or more) for those who want additional information? Ive been silently watching this post evolve. Here are my thoughts. As an audio consumer when i decide to or not to buy an amplifier it's general efficiency, topology, class and spec ratings are almost completely immaterial. Recently I went into my local hifi shop and saw a new amplifier playing some random opera passages. My initial reaction was wow that sounds great. Warm and musical and very realistic. Not knowing what it was I asked the salesperson. His response was its Dartzeel's CTH8550 integrated amplifier. It sounded so good I couldn't pull myself away from the music. He then told me some of the basic specs. 200wpc into 8 ohms. Blah. If I were comparing amps by specs this wouldn't even be on my radar. Price happens to be $25k but the main criteria I care about is how does it sound. In fact if someone were to try to make the argument that all amplifiers sound alike then I would suggest that they might need a hearing test bc amps are actually voiced by their designers to sound one way or another. As someone who spends 5 figures a year on audio gear the main criteria of the amp is how does it sound. I could care less that my amp has more efficiency than the other one. Which sounds more pleasing in my system to my ears. This is very subjective bc we all hear differently. Specs don't tell us if the final Product (amplified sound) will be favorable or offensive to our ears. Get out and try to hear as many products as you need to until you find the one that sounds right to your ears and budget; regardless of its specs |
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Post by KeithL on Oct 6, 2017 14:13:11 GMT -5
I don't see any reason whatsoever to "suppress" anything that anyone wants to talk about. And we're always interested in listening to what customers and fans have to say. (Note that I'm also not specifically promising to answer every question either.) However, I will note two things....... First, there's effectively no such thing as "efficiency while idling". When an amplifier is running, not in standby, but not delivering any output signal, its efficiency is zero. (Power is going in and no power is coming out.) Therefore, the meaningful term would be "power consumed while idling". The other thing is that, with most modern amplifier designs, circuitry is included that automatically adjusts the bias to maintain other more important performance parameters. So, if you were to measure most of our Class A/B amps with no input signal, you would find that the amount of power they consume will vary considerably - depending on factors like how warm they are. These automatic adjustments are designed to make sure that distortion and noise remain low, and even to ensure that the amp "warms up" quickly, but doesn't overheat after that. However, the exact amount of power the amp consumes as a result is considered to be an unimportant side effect (within certain limits). In order to provide meaningful numbers there, we would have to take a lot of measurements, and then figure out how to present them in a meaningful way. To be blunt, since there is no industry standard for presenting those measurements, and very few people either publish or ask for them, we usually don't bother to measure them. Such numbers are critical for devices that run on batteries, or that are powered by the solar panels on the International Space Station, but not so much for line-powered audio equipment. Like I said, if it's relevant to you then do your research and figure it out. But yep, it's a silly thing to be concerned about unless you are simply trying to be super green, or if you live under conditions that make your home ampacity limited. Again, the point of this thread is that there is no information to research, manufacturers don’t provide idle or efficiency ratings. And why is an Internet thread a bad place to promote adding another spec to equipment ratings? Isn’t that what forums are for? I just don’t think information is silly, I’m baffled why anyone would make an effort to suppress it. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 6, 2017 18:33:14 GMT -5
No standards exist.
So? You might be able to compare all EMO amps but try doing the same with another manufacturer and you are up against the wall.
That's IF Emotiva decided to take the data and make it public.
A similar and more meaningful problem is how to really measure amplifier power into a reactive load. Again, several proposals and many schematics for dummy loads online, but NO agreement
among amp manufacturers on how or what or if it's really necessary. (most would say to forget it)
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Post by Gary Cook on Oct 6, 2017 19:38:11 GMT -5
Ive been silently watching this post evolve. Here are my thoughts. As an audio consumer when i decide to or not to buy an amplifier it's general efficiency, topology, class and spec ratings are almost completely immaterial. Recently I went into my local hifi shop and saw a new amplifier playing some random opera passages. My initial reaction was wow that sounds great. Warm and musical and very realistic. Not knowing what it was I asked the salesperson. His response was its Dartzeel's CTH8550 integrated amplifier. It sounded so good I couldn't pull myself away from the music. He then told me some of the basic specs. 200wpc into 8 ohms. Blah. If I were comparing amps by specs this wouldn't even be on my radar. Price happens to be $25k but the main criteria I care about is how does it sound. In fact if someone were to try to make the argument that all amplifiers sound alike then I would suggest that they might need a hearing test bc amps are actually voiced by their designers to sound one way or another. As someone who spends 5 figures a year on audio gear the main criteria of the amp is how does it sound. I could care less that my amp has more efficiency than the other one. Which sounds more pleasing in my system to my ears. This is very subjective bc we all hear differently. Specs don't tell us if the final Product (amplified sound) will be favorable or offensive to our ears. Get out and try to hear as many products as you need to until you find the one that sounds right to your ears and budget; regardless of its specs But a perfectionist/audiophile will tell us that's a complete waste of time, we need to listen to an amplifier with our sources, our speakers and in our room. Comparing amplifiers in retail outlets is therefore next to useless. Personally I would have to spend days, in cars and planes, travelling around to the few retail outlets left in Australia and even then I wouldn't hear all of the amplifiers that I wanted to audition because they aren't in the sound rooms. I don't remotely relate how much power an amplifier draws to how it sounds. For sure there are measurements that are purported to provide some guidance as to how an amplifier should sound, distortion, cross talk etc. I would also exclude power output from that, I haven't found much correlation between how many watts an amp puts out and how it sounds. Lumping an amplifier's power draw in with the other "what does it sound like" measurements doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Going back to the thread's opening post, I see a lot of questions asked, not just here but on other audio forums, about will this amplifier demand too much power from the existing power circuit infrastructure. It's quite a common question which to me seems pretty easy to answer if the data was published along with the rest of amplifier manufacturers specs. What I see currently are a multitude of conflicting answers about theoretical deficiencies that just seem to confuse the questioners even more. I's a pretty simple measurement that could be carried out in conjunction with other standard industry measurements and the data published. If the amplifier manufacturer sells just 1 more amplifier per year then it's easily cost justified. Emotiva have always been very upfront about publishing the data on their amplifiers, it's one of the things that many customers, particularly the online buyers, appreciate. Maybe there's a small opportunity to get ahead of the game, it's very fashionable to be green these days and selling a new model amplifier that not only sounds better better but demonstrably also draws less power can't be a bad thing. I'm a firm believer in if you claim better efficiency then you should provide the data to support it. Cheers Gary |
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Post by pknaz on Oct 6, 2017 20:05:27 GMT -5
It's always interesting to me how/why/where/when people discuss "how" an amplifier will sound, but you almost never hear people talking about the _significantly_ more important contributors to how music sounds _in-a-room_, such as the speakers of choice, the dimensions of the room, the listening position in the room, the position of the loud speakers in the room, the room treatments, the particular mastering version of a track vs. another mastering of the same track. When you look at what each item in a chain contributes to a perceived difference in sound, a competent well designed amplifier is probably at the bottom of the list ordered by significance.
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Post by leonski on Oct 6, 2017 21:20:12 GMT -5
I've heard people with Massively Good systems say the room is up to 90% of what you hear.
I won't go with that huge an estimate, but do think the room is At Least 1/2 of what you hear. Fixing that will turn a good system into a great system.
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Post by Gary Cook on Oct 6, 2017 21:25:01 GMT -5
It's always interesting to me how/why/where/when people discuss "how" an amplifier will sound, but you almost never hear people talking about the _significantly_ more important contributors to how music sounds _in-a-room_, such as the speakers of choice, the dimensions of the room, the listening position in the room, the position of the loud speakers in the room, the room treatments, the particular mastering version of a track vs. another mastering of the same track. When you look at what each item in a chain contributes to a perceived difference in sound, a competent well designed amplifier is probably at the bottom of the list ordered by significance. Personally I'd put speakers at the top of the list, then power amplifiers, then pre amps and with DAC's at the bottom. Cheers Gary |
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Post by leonski on Oct 6, 2017 21:34:37 GMT -5
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Oct 6, 2017 22:04:44 GMT -5
I've heard people with Massively Good systems say the room is up to 90% of what you hear. I won't go with that huge an estimate, but do think the room is At Least 1/2 of what you hear. Fixing that will turn a good system into a great system. Maybe not 90% but the room is probably more important than your amp by a long shot. A good friend of mine once said, “proper room treatments let you hear more of your system and less of your room.” I think that’s pretty accurate. |
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Post by geebo on Oct 6, 2017 23:01:14 GMT -5
I don't know about the efficiency numbers but the GEN-3 runs cooler in my enclosed rack than any amp I've ever had in there including and XPA-5 Gen 1, XPA-2 Gen 1 and XPA-1L. My Crown Drivecore is the only exception. Less heat = less wasted energy. YMMV. Hey Geebo, have you ever measured the idle power or current on the G3? (hint, hint) Using a Kill-A-Watt meter my XPA-1L in class A reads 137 watts and in class B 36 watts. The XPA-2 Gen 3 reads 20 watts all idling. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 7, 2017 0:25:34 GMT -5
Thank Goodness, some DATA.
I hate to say it, but now some TEMPERATURE readings would be in order. A high mass amp sitting @137 watts wouldn't get warm at all, but a very light amp would be cooking.
Also? PF or Power Factor now gets factored in, but is not the first or second thing I'd worry about.
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