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Post by Bonzo on Oct 13, 2017 14:06:33 GMT -5
Thanks Keith. Someone posted the link to these many moons ago in a different thread and I totally planned to buy some, but completely forgot. Your post reminded me. I will be ordering some soon. Thanks again. |
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Post by 405x5 on Oct 13, 2017 15:03:39 GMT -5
“How much should we really care about HDMI 2.1 at this point?”
A bit late, but I felt like going back to the original question.
The answer is.....I Don’t micromanage the specs. surrounding my AV display, I simply address my AV switching needs if and when my existing video display gives up the ghost 👻.
A colossal waste of time, to obsess about such matters.
Bill
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Post by leonski on Oct 13, 2017 16:38:50 GMT -5
200 large for an Ari? More for the Helium? Look at ROI first and the size of movie theater screens. Nothing but the BEST will do for those viewing conditions. A camera like that pays for itself within minutes of being taken out of the case. Many if not all of the Alexa 65's used on Thor Ragnarok were rented for the duration of the shoot. My movie friends tell me that's because the camera technology changes too frequently to buy plus the directors and cinematographers have their favourite cameras so they tend to change with every movie as well. Hence renting is very common. I mentioned it a couple of posts ago, I have a cable connection at 100 - 130 mbps. What I am comparing is not 4K on a disk from an Oppo 203 to 4K from an ATV4K, that would be just plain silly. But comparing compressed 1080P via the ATV4 to compressed 2160P via the ATV4K, the later is noticeably superior with or without HDR. Not that I have choice, not everything that I watch is available on disc. To put it simply, "compressed" 4K looks better than "compressed" 2K and since they are the only 2 choices that's all that really matters.  Cheers Gary Rental? Makes perfect sense. When I did wedding photography, I would rent either an extra body (my glass) and some times studio flash with flash meter. I'd add in an external battery pack for my on-camera flash, so I'd NEVER need to worry about batteries, even in an all day shoot. I'm really concerned with how stuff looks on TV. This is just my observation, but HD (small dish) looks about as good as an upsampled DVD. SD stuff looks awful, muddied and not even as good as VHS Tape. Many times I've seen compression artifacts, like pixelation or macroblocking. LIVE sports or news looks pretty good, usually. I've run some comparisons over the years. My BR copy of 'The 5th Element' looks much better than when broadcast over small dish in 'HD'. My duel copy of one of the Monkey Movies came with a BR and DVD. You can tell which is which. My OK transfer of 'The Omega Man', with Chuck Heston is not that great in BR and I think has a Mono soundtrack. Even though I have a 4k tv, and an OLED, at that, I'm not too concerned with UHD content. Most will be stepped on pretty good by cable or small dish while I simply don't know how good it will look when compared to the same material from some of the other sources, like BR or off-the-air. I wanted to make a few notes about photography. Virtually everyone is familiar with JPG. If you are setting up your camera for the first time, you might even have some quality levels to choose from. My Canon Professional had I think levels from 1->12 for JPG and you could dial in the desired amount of Sharpening AND choose color space, like Adobe RGB or sRGB. When doing a wedding, I'd use the 'other choice' which was Camera Raw and set the JPG qualtiy down to like a 3, which gave a decent 4x6 'proof'. Detail and enlargement stuff would all start with the 'RAW' file. Photoshop comes with, in addition to JPG, about 10 or more ways to save a picture. Some are for graphics professionals where they do LINE ART (Vector Graphics?). I would do Business Cards in EPS. JPG, GIF and  are all RASTER formats composed of a mapped pixel image. resizing them is computationally intensive and can result in 'jaggies' or other artifacts. |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Oct 13, 2017 16:46:47 GMT -5
Don't worry Keith ( KeithL), I didn't say " would be possible", I said " could" (and probably should have said " might") ... And I was only focusing on the PHYs and nothing upstream of them! :-) Casey |
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Post by Gary Cook on Oct 13, 2017 18:10:25 GMT -5
As Keith pointed out what I actually see is a combination of factors that can affect different people differently, many outside their direct control. For example what Netflix Australia decides to send out, what bandwidth my connection can handle, what the Apple TV4K processes and passes on and finally what the Samsung TV shows.
I chose to update/upgrade the ATV and the TV with the hope/belief that I would get an improved picture some of the time, which is what I have found. Some of it is actually quite a stunning improvement and so far I haven’t experienced any that are worse. So I can confidently claim that it was worth it, for me,
Comparing it to other sources I don’t see as relevant, if I want a UHD blue ray then I buy it and watch it via the Oppo 203. I have no expectation that the programs I watch via Netflix or Stan will look or sound as good, that’s just unrealistic. Just the same as they didn’t in 2K compared to a blu ray, or 1K compared to a DVD.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by leonski on Oct 13, 2017 20:59:14 GMT -5
Source comparison, is, IMO, very relevant. You compare 'The Best WITH The Best'. DVD should come in 'last'. but when watching the same program across platforms, you will eventually decide that overall (XXX) is the best.
Maybe eventually a 4k player will be best, with the least compression. Or maybe an ultra high bandwidth streaming situation. I'm glad you noted your download speed and capability. Many systems can't quite muster that and will
later throttle you DOWN after you reach a certain limit. 2tb? More? Less?
I upped my internet speed to accomodate HD to a single set. Prior service was DSL based and they wouldn't up the speed even after I took all the noise and latency readings showing the line would sustain faster. They wanted me to go to
the ATT UVERSE setup.
Just last week, ATT sales hacks were here bragging about the new Fiber Optic setup. They installed it 8 or 10 years ago and CHOPPED IT OFF flush with the street. Now? Prices are high and they can sustain the 'new' tech.
I may check out ATV4K and try to find out what kind of bandwidth I need to sustain that resolution. At the same time? I'll try to find out just what IS available and how much of it I may actually be interested in.
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Post by TyeDye on Dec 14, 2017 12:50:49 GMT -5
So when the HDMI 2.1 "standard" was announced at CES 2017 this winter I mostly just shrugged it off as a technology in search of an application ... and one which was going to take significantly longer to see in the field than promised (I know quite a bit about high-speed digital signaling since that's the business I'm in currently). But, recently Rob Sabin and Steve Guttenberg of Sound & Vision posted a video blog (see the 4:18 mark) where Rob said that HDMI was a market disruption that we would see in 2018 and make it very difficult to buy processors with only HDMI 2.0b. (For Emotiva I presume it would be less of a problem because of their current upgradable HDMI sub-board assembly approach.) But A. does anyone else think that we'll really see [affordable] HDMI 2.1 products in 2018, or B. even if it does make it in 2018, that there will be any use for the extra bandwidth and capability any time soon? If you look at the HDMI 2.0b and 2.1 specifications, 2.0b supports "4K" x 60Hz and Dynamic HDR formats. 2.1 extends that to "4K" & "8K" x 120Hz and in other fairly extreme ways. When are we likely to see any content or displays capable of that? It seems to me that Rob Sabin's "worries" about buying a processor in 2018 are a bit over-blown ... Casey Affordable products are here (Just not from my Favorite electronics Mfgr.). If you do don't understand that 4K HDR is mainstream is here now and is real ... reminds me of Flat Earthers. Some where in these threads I read a post that said ..."Only half of Netflix subscribers have the bandwidth to enjoy or play 4k" ...... Sooo ..... Netflix has over 100,000,000 (100 Million) subscribbers, Half of that is 50,000,000 (Fifty Million people have 4k capabilities and equipment.) That alone makes 4K mainstream and afordable .... Emotiva fan boys ..... give us a break ... Netflix does not take into acount Apple TV 4K, Fire TV 4k HDR from Amazon, OPPO 4k hdr, all TV's have 4K HDR and all are plug and play .... All mainstream electronics companies are deep into 4K. Not to mention Blue Jean Cables and on infinim, Where is the NEW Board ..... Everyother highend and low end Electronics Manufacturer has had 4K out and works great. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 15, 2017 17:45:51 GMT -5
I may check out ATV4K and try to find out what kind of bandwidth I need to sustain that resolution. At the same time? I'll try to find out just what IS available and how much of it I may actually be interested in. I use my ATV4K via wifi and the closest Airport Extreme only handles 802.11 b/g/n so the speed is limited to around 30 mbps. I have experienced no buffering, no pixelation, no glitches, no sound drop outs etc, nothing. It just works perfectly, every time, as it has since they day that they were released. I had anticipated hard wiring the ATV4K to the Extreme or swapping in the later model Extreme that handles 802.11 ac, but that hasn't proved to be necessary. Merry Xmas to all Gary |
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Post by TyeDye on Jan 22, 2018 12:47:59 GMT -5
So when the HDMI 2.1 "standard" was announced at CES 2017 this winter I mostly just shrugged it off as a technology in search of an application ... and one which was going to take significantly longer to see in the field than promised (I know quite a bit about high-speed digital signaling since that's the business I'm in currently). But, recently Rob Sabin and Steve Guttenberg of Sound & Vision posted a video blog (see the 4:18 mark) where Rob said that HDMI was a market disruption that we would see in 2018 and make it very difficult to buy processors with only HDMI 2.0b. (For Emotiva I presume it would be less of a problem because of their current upgradable HDMI sub-board assembly approach.) But A. does anyone else think that we'll really see [affordable] HDMI 2.1 products in 2018, or B. even if it does make it in 2018, that there will be any use for the extra bandwidth and capability any time soon? If you look at the HDMI 2.0b and 2.1 specifications, 2.0b supports "4K" x 60Hz and Dynamic HDR formats. 2.1 extends that to "4K" & "8K" x 120Hz and in other fairly extreme ways. When are we likely to see any content or displays capable of that? It seems to me that Rob Sabin's "worries" about buying a processor in 2018 are a bit over-blown Casey oh .......... Happy new year .... And ...... Rob Sabin you are right!" The Content is and has been here! ( I've missed my Emotiva gear. I Hurts to see it not being used.) I've really enjoyed "High End" 4k HDR and the new aduio choices .... Wish Emotiva had of gotten on board .... Is everybody still on vacation .... Wheres my Video and Sound Boards? |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Jan 22, 2018 13:24:31 GMT -5
4K HDR, et.al. are handled by HDMI 2.0b. HDMI 2.1 is wildly beyond that.
Now if you're "musing" about the lack of a current Emotiva HDMI 2.0b product, that seems like it'll get addressed within the next 3 months, if not a lot sooner. (I can't remember the exact date that was recently announced, so I'll be conservative.)
Casey
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Post by flamingeye on Jan 22, 2018 13:26:10 GMT -5
usually when buying I want my gear to last 10 - 15 years so if I where to be buying now I would want HDMI 2.1 , I know I'm crazy for keeping gear especially a pre/pro for that long and in reality it's been more like 8 years lately , but with a fixed income I do not have much chose and the wife is understanding to a point because my money is ours and hers is hers
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Post by Casey Leedom on Jan 22, 2018 14:45:32 GMT -5
I think that it's a forlorn hope to keep any Pre-Processor for 10-15 years and hope that it stays up with technology. The Pre-Processor is the center of Media Format decoding and Connection Technology and those are both just changing way too fast. We get some benefit with the XMC-1 allowing for individual boards being updated, and I think that's the best you're going to get with any vendor's products.
As for HDMI 2.1, remember: it's not out yet and the standard was just finalized (or maybe still in the final throws of being finalized). You'll probably see some products out by the end of 2018, but those are going to be bleeding edge with high prices and infant deployment issues.
Casey
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Post by flamingeye on Jan 22, 2018 16:32:50 GMT -5
I'm not trying to stay up with technology of course by waiting every 10-15 years to update , but hope by getting what's top tech now will carry me over for that long while the inevitable of tech advancement caries on . some advancements are better then others and or worth upgrading now and others are worth waiting for maturity and or wide acceptance . trying to keep up is a fools/rich mans game
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 22, 2018 17:01:44 GMT -5
I'm not trying to stay up with technology of course by waiting every 10-15 years to update , but hope by getting what's top tech now will carry me over for that long while the inevitable of tech advancement caries on . some advancements are better then others and or worth upgrading now and others are worth waiting for maturity and or wide acceptance . trying to keep up is a fools/rich mans game For this exact reason I stopped buying high quality AVR's a decade or so ago and moved to relatively inexpensive processors (eg; UMC-1 and UMC-200) that way I don't feel so bad replacing them every 3 or 4 years. Rather than spending $3,000 every 10 years, spending $600 or so every 3 years is not only better financially but it also gives better sound and video averaged over that time because I can access the latest spec's earlier eg; Atmos/DTSX/Auro for audio and 4K HDR & Dolby Vision for video. Whereas if I wait 10 years, at the current rate, to replace the processor I'm going to be 2 or 3 generations out of date for most of that 10 years. The MC-700 handles 4K and if it also had Atmos/DTSX/Auro there would be one in my rack already. There's a price and spec point that fits my preferences, right now there isn't a suitable option, so I patiently (not really  ) wait. Cheers Gary |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Jan 22, 2018 17:30:37 GMT -5
There's certainly something to be said for the idea of not investing too much in a Pre-Processor given the rapidly evolving state of the art. Of course, it's also the last thing before the amplifiers. And given how important the DACs are, you'd almost think that someone would have invented a 16-way out-board DAC for the RMC-1. That way you could stream digital signals to a high-quality set of DACs, and just replace the Pre-Processor as needed. But maybe that's the entire plan for the XMC-1 Gen1/2/3 and RMC-1 with replaceable boards ...
Casey
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 22, 2018 17:55:43 GMT -5
There's certainly something to be said for the idea of not investing too much in a Pre-Processor given the rapidly evolving state of the art. Of course, it's also the last thing before the amplifiers. And given how important the DACs are, you'd almost think that someone would have invented a 16-way out-board DAC for the RMC-1. That way you could stream digital signals to a high-quality set of DACs, and just replace the Pre-Processor as needed. But maybe that's the entire plan for the XMC-1 Gen1/2/3 and RMC-1 with replaceable boards ... Casey I've kinda done something similar by using an XSP-1 for all of my stereo music. All balanced in and out, with no video or audio processor to upgrade every other year. Quality pre amps are much like quality power amps, they never really go out of date or become obsolete. If they sound good today they will still sound good for decades. Hence I have the philosophy of investing more in the components that last longer and not sweating as much on the disposable stuff that just doesn't have anywhere near that life span. Cheers Gary |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Jan 22, 2018 18:01:15 GMT -5
Hhmmm, a 16-channel Fully Differential Out-Board DAC ... :-)
Casey
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Post by TyeDye on Jan 22, 2018 18:06:27 GMT -5
4K HDR, et.al. are handled by HDMI 2.0b. HDMI 2.1 is wildly beyond that. Now if you're "musing" about the lack of a current Emotiva HDMI 2.0b product, that seems like it'll get addressed within the next 3 months, if not a lot sooner. (I can't remember the exact date that was recently announced, so I'll be conservative.) Casey Casey - Don't hold your breath! The original Date was before August 2017, and then it was August 2017, then the date changed to "Two Weeks" that went on untill November 2017, Then it was Posted in the product description on thewebsite the board will be available the end of 4th Quarter 2017 (december 31st). The last time Emotiva made these kinds of promises was an uprade to UMC1 which went on for 2 years ............. we ended up with and option to buy the new XMC1 and never the true fix that was promised for the UMC1. Those of us that have been through this before can see it coming ..... They never had the Fix and XMC1 was our otion ... in other words buy a neww iteration. The beauty of the Promise that the processor woud never be outdated. We would be able to buy a "not too expensive upgrade" and never be behind the technology, then it changed to a rather expensive alternative and we would have to send the unit back to Emotiva for a MOD exchange ...... Emotiva are great products .... but I'm 60 and may not live to see the next upgrade at the rate its going. The Media, cables, TV's, Software, and Electronics has been out for the last year and in large quantities. ..... I'm wondering if the delay is just Emotiva trying to get out of paying royalties ..... Beleive me I love these guys ..... but if you have a brother that is mibehaving and avoiding the truth ....... You have to call them out on it. Time to come out of the closet. Bud |
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are all RASTER formats composed of a mapped pixel image. resizing them is computationally intensive and can result in 'jaggies' or other artifacts.
) wait. 