gards
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Posts: 12
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Post by gards on Feb 10, 2021 12:42:45 GMT -5
As stated I use the Emotiva 1.1.0.5958 version of Dirac.
It is a simple switch between the computer and the XMC-1. My router is in another room. I will disconnect all other devices and the one going to the router. Reset the switch. I can even make a crossed cable and connect them directly to each other.
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gards
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Post by gards on Feb 10, 2021 12:45:54 GMT -5
As stated I use the Emotiva 1.1.0.5958 version of Dirac. It is a simple switch between the computer and the XMC-1. My router is in another room. I will disconnect all other devices and the one going to the router. Reset the switch. I can even make a crossed cable and connect them directly to each other. Still, I get the feeling that I just have forgotten something simple |
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gards
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Post by gards on Feb 10, 2021 15:33:00 GMT -5
Any way to configure Dirac? To tell it the ip of the XMC-1 or what ports to use?
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gards
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Post by gards on Feb 11, 2021 12:49:41 GMT -5
Today I have tested some more. Using Wireshark and Microsoft Network Monitor I have looked at some of the traffic initiated by Dirac. Seems that it only try to communicate with an external ip. 46.137.162.203 Dirac services on Amazon I guess. NO, internal communication to find the XMC-1 it seems.
One more thing. does it matter if the computer is connected to XMC-1 with hdmi or not?
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gards
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Post by gards on Feb 15, 2021 9:47:59 GMT -5
OK, I finally must admit it was the simple things. After looking at Wireshark and Microsoft Network Monitor I couldn't see Dirac trying to connect to my XMC-1 at all. After a talk with Emotiva support they was uncertain if my 192.168.68.xx net would work. So I changed to the more normal 192.168.0.xx. That did not help. That they thought my 192.168.68.xx could be a problem made me think. My vlan isn't limited to 254 addresses it's 1022 and that Dirac may not have been programmed for larger vlan's than /24 when I used an /22 (255.255.252.0)
So I set the VLAN to /24 and there was Dirac asking to connect to the XMC-1
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 15, 2021 10:23:06 GMT -5
First... glad you got it working...
But I must admit I'm a bit confused as to the way you did so... (And I'm adding this mostly for the benefit of others who may be having problems... )
The only components of a normal network configuration that have direct bearing on the address are the IP Address and the Net Mask.
A VLAN (or Virtual LAN) is a special way of connecting two or more network segments - usually remotely. (Some people refer to using a VLAN as "tunneling".)
My point here is that the very fact that you were using a VLAN AT ALL counts as one of those "special network configurations"... It's one of those special things that some routers can do...
But it is far beyond "a standard network connection"... Some things may or may not work at all when connected through a VLAN type connection...
And some may do so only if you make very specific configuration settings... (And having a VLAN configured may even interfere with things not normally configured to run through it...)
OK, I finally must admit it was the simple things. After looking at Wireshark and Microsoft Network Monitor I couldn't see Dirac trying to connect to my XMC-1 at all. After a talk with Emotiva support they was uncertain if my 192.168.68.xx net would work. So I changed to the more normal 192.168.0.xx. That did not help. That they thought my 192.168.68.xx could be a problem made me think. My vlan isn't limited to 254 addresses it's 1022 and that Dirac may not have been programmed for larger vlan's than /24 when I used an /22 (255.255.252.0) So I set the VLAN to /24 and there was Dirac asking to connect to the XMC-1 |
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Post by megash0n on Feb 15, 2021 12:51:21 GMT -5
First... glad you got it working...
But I must admit I'm a bit confused as to the way you did so... (And I'm adding this mostly for the benefit of others who may be having problems... )
The only components of a normal network configuration that have direct bearing on the address are the IP Address and the Net Mask.
A VLAN (or Virtual LAN) is a special way of connecting two or more network segments - usually remotely. (Some people refer to using a VLAN as "tunneling".)
My point here is that the very fact that you were using a VLAN AT ALL counts as one of those "special network configurations"... It's one of those special things that some routers can do...
But it is far beyond "a standard network connection"... Some things may or may not work at all when connected through a VLAN type connection...
And some may do so only if you make very specific configuration settings... (And having a VLAN configured may even interfere with things not normally configured to run through it...)
OK, I finally must admit it was the simple things. After looking at Wireshark and Microsoft Network Monitor I couldn't see Dirac trying to connect to my XMC-1 at all. After a talk with Emotiva support they was uncertain if my 192.168.68.xx net would work. So I changed to the more normal 192.168.0.xx. That did not help. That they thought my 192.168.68.xx could be a problem made me think. My vlan isn't limited to 254 addresses it's 1022 and that Dirac may not have been programmed for larger vlan's than /24 when I used an /22 (255.255.252.0) So I set the VLAN to /24 and there was Dirac asking to connect to the XMC-1 If the intent is to educate us consumers, I would recommend highly modifying this entire post. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any recent network gear that doesn't have vlan configuration, most of which allow you to add or modify VLAN configuration. It isn't "special". Almost everyone on here who has any sort of device with multiple switch ports is likely using the " Default VLAN " on said networking device. I've never heard anyone refer to VLANs as tunneling. VLANs aren't specific to routers. You will find them in all sorts of network devices and cards. VLANs don't connect different segments together.. Routing engines do that. VLANs (or VLAN IDs) are basically used for security control and identification purposes. It would also be quite rare, outside of large, multi-site enterprise, that remote sites would care or know about VLANs or VLAN IDs in another site (remotely comment) In many cases, those IDs are mimicked or overlapped on purpose for ease of management or consistency. I believe what we have here is a simple use of the least correct term. While using the term VLAN is not entirely wrong, what he should have said was segment or network segment. This seems to be the actual issue, although I'm a bit confused on why Dirac would care whether it is a /22 or /24 segment. I'm even more confused as to why a segment that large is used inside a home, but again.. There's nothing technically wrong with it. |
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KeithL
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Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Feb 15, 2021 14:39:16 GMT -5
As you say the correct technical term is Network Segment.
The term "VLAN" is short for Virtual Local Area Network .... It refers to the concept that a group of address is configured to "act as a separate virtual local area network".
A VLAN can be used locally, for security, as a way to isolate one group of devices from the rest of your network. You are making a certain group of devices, on their own network segment, "act as if they are virtually on a separate network". The idea being that "they can't see each other or talk to each other".
However, unless you use some form of packet encryption, there is very little security involved. (At that point it's really just a convenience feature for organizing devices...)
In most VLAN implementations you encrypt packets at one point, pass them over an open network, then decrypt them at another point. Between those two endpoints the packets are encrypted - rendering their contents both secure from viewing and secure from being altered. In this context connecting to a VLAN is also commonly referred to as "connecting via a secure tunnel"....
Because, in secure implementations, the traffic that is passed through the "tunnel" is encrypted, and so "invisible from outside the tunnel".
This use for VLANs is quite commonly used in a corporate setting to enable remote users or teleworkers to connect to the company network. You run a "VLAN client" on your computer which "connects you to the company's network, over the Internet, through a secure tunnel". Your computer then becomes "a virtual part of the company's LAN".
There are also hardware "VPN servers and endpoints" which allow you to securely connect two entire separate LANs this way.
In another similar context, a VLAN is often used for personal security, to obfuscate the address of a local computer. In that context you use a VLAN client to connect to a VLAN server somewhere else... and all of your Internet traffic then "appears to come from there". This obscures your identity and location and is quite popular in countries where state censorship is common - and dangerously aggressive.
The idea of referring to separate sets of addresses as "VLANs" rather than simply as "different SubNets" is relatively recent.... (And a bit pretentious... much like the idea of referring to stereoscopic images as "holograms"... although it is technically correct.)
First... glad you got it working... But I must admit I'm a bit confused as to the way you did so... (And I'm adding this mostly for the benefit of others who may be having problems... ) The only components of a normal network configuration that have direct bearing on the address are the IP Address and the Net Mask. A VLAN (or Virtual LAN) is a special way of connecting two or more network segments - usually remotely. (Some people refer to using a VLAN as "tunneling".)
My point here is that the very fact that you were using a VLAN AT ALL counts as one of those "special network configurations"... It's one of those special things that some routers can do...
But it is far beyond "a standard network connection"... Some things may or may not work at all when connected through a VLAN type connection...
And some may do so only if you make very specific configuration settings... (And having a VLAN configured may even interfere with things not normally configured to run through it...)
If the intent is to educate us consumers, I would recommend highly modifying this entire post. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any recent network gear that doesn't have vlan configuration, most of which allow you to add or modify VLAN configuration. It isn't "special". Almost everyone on here who has any sort of device with multiple switch ports is likely using the " Default VLAN " on said networking device. I've never heard anyone refer to VLANs as tunneling. VLANs aren't specific to routers. You will find them in all sorts of network devices and cards. VLANs don't connect different segments together.. Routing engines do that. VLANs (or VLAN IDs) are basically used for security control and identification purposes. It would also be quite rare, outside of large, multi-site enterprise, that remote sites would care or know about VLANs or VLAN IDs in another site (remotely comment) In many cases, those IDs are mimicked or overlapped on purpose for ease of management or consistency. I believe what we have here is a simple use of the least correct term. While using the term VLAN is not entirely wrong, what he should have said was segment or network segment. This seems to be the actual issue, although I'm a bit confused on why Dirac would care whether it is a /22 or /24 segment. I'm even more confused as to why a segment that large is used inside a home, but again.. There's nothing technically wrong with it. |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Feb 15, 2021 14:41:59 GMT -5
On a separate note - I agree that I'm not suite sure why the Dirac Live software would have a problem with that situation. Although it's also possible that it was the XMC-1, or some other piece of gear in the network mesh, that wasn't handling it correctly. (It's simply an unusual situation which may not have been thoroughly tested.)
First... glad you got it working... But I must admit I'm a bit confused as to the way you did so... (And I'm adding this mostly for the benefit of others who may be having problems... ) The only components of a normal network configuration that have direct bearing on the address are the IP Address and the Net Mask. A VLAN (or Virtual LAN) is a special way of connecting two or more network segments - usually remotely. (Some people refer to using a VLAN as "tunneling".)
My point here is that the very fact that you were using a VLAN AT ALL counts as one of those "special network configurations"... It's one of those special things that some routers can do...
But it is far beyond "a standard network connection"... Some things may or may not work at all when connected through a VLAN type connection...
And some may do so only if you make very specific configuration settings... (And having a VLAN configured may even interfere with things not normally configured to run through it...)
If the intent is to educate us consumers, I would recommend highly modifying this entire post. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any recent network gear that doesn't have vlan configuration, most of which allow you to add or modify VLAN configuration. It isn't "special". Almost everyone on here who has any sort of device with multiple switch ports is likely using the " Default VLAN " on said networking device. I've never heard anyone refer to VLANs as tunneling. VLANs aren't specific to routers. You will find them in all sorts of network devices and cards. VLANs don't connect different segments together.. Routing engines do that. VLANs (or VLAN IDs) are basically used for security control and identification purposes. It would also be quite rare, outside of large, multi-site enterprise, that remote sites would care or know about VLANs or VLAN IDs in another site (remotely comment) In many cases, those IDs are mimicked or overlapped on purpose for ease of management or consistency. I believe what we have here is a simple use of the least correct term. While using the term VLAN is not entirely wrong, what he should have said was segment or network segment. This seems to be the actual issue, although I'm a bit confused on why Dirac would care whether it is a /22 or /24 segment. I'm even more confused as to why a segment that large is used inside a home, but again.. There's nothing technically wrong with it. |
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Post by megash0n on Feb 15, 2021 19:40:26 GMT -5
As you say the correct technical term is Network Segment.
The term "VLAN" is short for Virtual Local Area Network .... It refers to the concept that a group of address is configured to "act as a separate virtual local area network".
A VLAN can be used locally, for security, as a way to isolate one group of devices from the rest of your network. You are making a certain group of devices, on their own network segment, "act as if they are virtually on a separate network". The idea being that "they can't see each other or talk to each other".
However, unless you use some form of packet encryption, there is very little security involved. (At that point it's really just a convenience feature for organizing devices...)
In most VLAN implementations you encrypt packets at one point, pass them over an open network, then decrypt them at another point. Between those two endpoints the packets are encrypted - rendering their contents both secure from viewing and secure from being altered. In this context connecting to a VLAN is also commonly referred to as "connecting via a secure tunnel"....
Because, in secure implementations, the traffic that is passed through the "tunnel" is encrypted, and so "invisible from outside the tunnel".
This use for VLANs is quite commonly used in a corporate setting to enable remote users or teleworkers to connect to the company network. You run a "VLAN client" on your computer which "connects you to the company's network, over the Internet, through a secure tunnel". Your computer then becomes "a virtual part of the company's LAN".
There are also hardware "VPN servers and endpoints" which allow you to securely connect two entire separate LANs this way.
In another similar context, a VLAN is often used for personal security, to obfuscate the address of a local computer. In that context you use a VLAN client to connect to a VLAN server somewhere else... and all of your Internet traffic then "appears to come from there". This obscures your identity and location and is quite popular in countries where state censorship is common - and dangerously aggressive.
The idea of referring to separate sets of addresses as "VLANs" rather than simply as "different SubNets" is relatively recent.... (And a bit pretentious... much like the idea of referring to stereoscopic images as "holograms"... although it is technically correct.)
If the intent is to educate us consumers, I would recommend highly modifying this entire post. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any recent network gear that doesn't have vlan configuration, most of which allow you to add or modify VLAN configuration. It isn't "special". Almost everyone on here who has any sort of device with multiple switch ports is likely using the " Default VLAN " on said networking device. I've never heard anyone refer to VLANs as tunneling. VLANs aren't specific to routers. You will find them in all sorts of network devices and cards. VLANs don't connect different segments together.. Routing engines do that. VLANs (or VLAN IDs) are basically used for security control and identification purposes. It would also be quite rare, outside of large, multi-site enterprise, that remote sites would care or know about VLANs or VLAN IDs in another site (remotely comment) In many cases, those IDs are mimicked or overlapped on purpose for ease of management or consistency. I believe what we have here is a simple use of the least correct term. While using the term VLAN is not entirely wrong, what he should have said was segment or network segment. This seems to be the actual issue, although I'm a bit confused on why Dirac would care whether it is a /22 or /24 segment. I'm even more confused as to why a segment that large is used inside a home, but again.. There's nothing technically wrong with it. My intent isn't to come from a place of negativity or to argue for the sake of arguing just to be clear. But, in 23 years of working in the IT field, much of that doing networking myself, and along side a multitude of CCIEs, I have never seen or heard VLANs be described and used in ways you are discussing. Are some of the things you are saying correct? absolutely. But much of it is either outright incorrect or so misleading that it borderlines negligence. I highly doubt either of us want to hash out the details over pages of forum posts as this isn't really related directly to audio, and to be honest, I'm not sure what is to be gained by continuing the discussion. We can respectfully agree to disagree on networking terms and concepts. I do know you had a previous career in networking as well, so I am aware you have some things to back your statements up with. The consumer interested in using said features should probably discard both of our positions and educate themselves. This really isn't the forum for proper networking 101. As always, appreciate the way you chose to respond. Take care. |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Feb 15, 2021 23:07:04 GMT -5
Agreed....
And I'm more thinking of VPNs... which are a rather special subset of VLANs... Where I used to work we generally reserved the term "VLAN" for the formal definition of "LANs at multiple locations virtualized to act as a single LAN".
In any case... you are quite right... about it's not being especially relevant here.
What is relevant to folks trying to use Dirac Live is that the Dirac software was written to run on a typical home network. It also works on networks where the same router controls both a wired and a WiFi network segment - and is properly routing between them. On anything beyond that, like a mesh network, or a network extender, it may or may not work, depending on exactly what routing and protocols they support.
The best overall advice for getting Dirac Live to work is this:
"When in doubt, make sure the Dirac Live software and the processor are on the SAME network and subnet, and the computer has an Internet connection." "Make sure there is nothing like a firewall, either in your router, or on your computer, blocking the program from communicating over the network."
If you meet that requirement it will generally always work. (And, if not, most remaining problems can be resolved by resetting the DHCP client on the processor and/or your router.)
As you say the correct technical term is Network Segment. The term "VLAN" is short for Virtual Local Area Network .... It refers to the concept that a group of address is configured to "act as a separate virtual local area network". A VLAN can be used locally, for security, as a way to isolate one group of devices from the rest of your network. You are making a certain group of devices, on their own network segment, "act as if they are virtually on a separate network". The idea being that "they can't see each other or talk to each other".
However, unless you use some form of packet encryption, there is very little security involved. (At that point it's really just a convenience feature for organizing devices...)
In most VLAN implementations you encrypt packets at one point, pass them over an open network, then decrypt them at another point. Between those two endpoints the packets are encrypted - rendering their contents both secure from viewing and secure from being altered. In this context connecting to a VLAN is also commonly referred to as "connecting via a secure tunnel"....
Because, in secure implementations, the traffic that is passed through the "tunnel" is encrypted, and so "invisible from outside the tunnel".
This use for VLANs is quite commonly used in a corporate setting to enable remote users or teleworkers to connect to the company network. You run a "VLAN client" on your computer which "connects you to the company's network, over the Internet, through a secure tunnel". Your computer then becomes "a virtual part of the company's LAN".
There are also hardware "VPN servers and endpoints" which allow you to securely connect two entire separate LANs this way.
In another similar context, a VLAN is often used for personal security, to obfuscate the address of a local computer. In that context you use a VLAN client to connect to a VLAN server somewhere else... and all of your Internet traffic then "appears to come from there". This obscures your identity and location and is quite popular in countries where state censorship is common - and dangerously aggressive.
The idea of referring to separate sets of addresses as "VLANs" rather than simply as "different SubNets" is relatively recent.... (And a bit pretentious... much like the idea of referring to stereoscopic images as "holograms"... although it is technically correct.) My intent isn't to come from a place of negativity or to argue for the sake of arguing just to be clear. But, in 23 years of working in the IT field, much of that doing networking myself, and along side a multitude of CCIEs, I have never seen or heard VLANs be described and used in ways you are discussing. Are some of the things you are saying correct? absolutely. But much of it is either outright incorrect or so misleading that it borderlines negligence. I highly doubt either of us want to hash out the details over pages of forum posts as this isn't really related directly to audio, and to be honest, I'm not sure what is to be gained by continuing the discussion. We can respectfully agree to disagree on networking terms and concepts. I do know you had a previous career in networking as well, so I am aware you have some things to back your statements up with. The consumer interested in using said features should probably discard both of our positions and educate themselves. This really isn't the forum for proper networking 101. As always, appreciate the way you chose to respond. Take care. |
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gards
Minor Hero
Posts: 12
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Post by gards on Feb 16, 2021 1:57:24 GMT -5
I probably have messed up this thread with too much irrelevant info. You are also correct that I could have used the term segment instead. The reason I use vlan/segmented network is mostly for testing purposes in my work.
What we have learned is that the Dirac/XMC-1 combo just handles /24. The FAQ also states this.
From the first post in the Dirac faq:
Windows 7+ cannot find the XMC-1.
- Ensure that you are running the latest firmware.
- Ensure that your network settings are correct. (p.46 of the XMC-1 manual)
- Power down the XMC-1 using the rear switch for 10 seconds. Then power it back on.
- Ensure that you are using the 255.255.255.0 subnet - If you don't know what this is, then yours is correct.
This is where we have learned something. I used a standard mesh like many people. The TP-Link X60 in this case. X60 defaults to 192.168.68.1/22
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gards
Minor Hero
Posts: 12
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Post by gards on Feb 16, 2021 2:29:35 GMT -5
I probably have messed up this thread with too much irrelevant info. You are also correct that I could have used the term segment instead. The reason I use vlan/segmented network is mostly for testing purposes in my work. What we have learned is that the Dirac/XMC-1 combo just handles /24. The FAQ also states this. From the first post in the Dirac faq: Windows 7+ cannot find the XMC-1. - Ensure that you are running the latest firmware. - Ensure that your network settings are correct. (p.46 of the XMC-1 manual) - Power down the XMC-1 using the rear switch for 10 seconds. Then power it back on. - Ensure that you are using the 255.255.255.0 subnet - If you don't know what this is, then yours is correct. This is where we have learned something. I used a standard mesh like many people. The TP-Link X60 in this case. X60 defaults to 192.168.68.1/22 Keith, since you are still selling these units with Dirac. Emotiva should investigate this. As you say, the most likely culprit is the XMC-1. Not sure what NIC is used, but I guess this is fixable. If I can be of any assistance, just reach out |
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Post by megash0n on Feb 16, 2021 8:33:47 GMT -5
I probably have messed up this thread with too much irrelevant info. You are also correct that I could have used the term segment instead. The reason I use vlan/segmented network is mostly for testing purposes in my work. What we have learned is that the Dirac/XMC-1 combo just handles /24. The FAQ also states this. From the first post in the Dirac faq: Windows 7+ cannot find the XMC-1. - Ensure that you are running the latest firmware. - Ensure that your network settings are correct. (p.46 of the XMC-1 manual) - Power down the XMC-1 using the rear switch for 10 seconds. Then power it back on. - Ensure that you are using the 255.255.255.0 subnet - If you don't know what this is, then yours is correct. This is where we have learned something. I used a standard mesh like many people. The TP-Link X60 in this case. X60 defaults to 192.168.68.1/22 Keith, since you are still selling these units with Dirac. Emotiva should investigate this. As you say, the most likely culprit is the XMC-1. Not sure what NIC is used, but I guess this is fixable. If I can be of any assistance, just reach out The issue with their documentation is that you never really know if it is accurate. Something like what you just referred to could have been written to limit the number of support calls, or it could be written because their software was written in a way that required the /24 subnet. My assumption is the first, misleading statement. You always should have lots of bubble gum and duct tape on hand when dealing with an Emotiva processor. Glad you are up and running now. |
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Post by megash0n on Feb 16, 2021 8:39:24 GMT -5
Agreed....
And I'm more thinking of VPNs... which are a rather special subset of VLANs... Where I used to work we generally reserved the term "VLAN" for the formal definition of "LANs at multiple locations virtualized to act as a single LAN".
In any case... you are quite right... about it's not being especially relevant here.
What is relevant to folks trying to use Dirac Live is that the Dirac software was written to run on a typical home network. It also works on networks where the same router controls both a wired and a WiFi network segment - and is properly routing between them. On anything beyond that, like a mesh network, or a network extender, it may or may not work, depending on exactly what routing and protocols they support.
The best overall advice for getting Dirac Live to work is this:
"When in doubt, make sure the Dirac Live software and the processor are on the SAME network and subnet, and the computer has an Internet connection." "Make sure there is nothing like a firewall, either in your router, or on your computer, blocking the program from communicating over the network."
If you meet that requirement it will generally always work. (And, if not, most remaining problems can be resolved by resetting the DHCP client on the processor and/or your router.)
My intent isn't to come from a place of negativity or to argue for the sake of arguing just to be clear. But, in 23 years of working in the IT field, much of that doing networking myself, and along side a multitude of CCIEs, I have never seen or heard VLANs be described and used in ways you are discussing. Are some of the things you are saying correct? absolutely. But much of it is either outright incorrect or so misleading that it borderlines negligence. I highly doubt either of us want to hash out the details over pages of forum posts as this isn't really related directly to audio, and to be honest, I'm not sure what is to be gained by continuing the discussion. We can respectfully agree to disagree on networking terms and concepts. I do know you had a previous career in networking as well, so I am aware you have some things to back your statements up with. The consumer interested in using said features should probably discard both of our positions and educate themselves. This really isn't the forum for proper networking 101. As always, appreciate the way you chose to respond. Take care. Yes sir, many of the things you were saying were more VPN related items. There were a few different concepts that were being merged into a single label of VLAN. Based on what you've said now, I think I see where you are pulling it all together into one thing. Sound advice on the rest. ☺ |
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