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Post by monkumonku on Dec 11, 2017 0:29:41 GMT -5
I just purchased a new PB12-plus and like most of us wanted to get the best performance out of it. So I replaced my 6ft RCA cable with a 6ft XLR from EMO, and there was noticeable difference in the sub gain. I played the same scene swapping out the cables and making no other adjustments and I was shocked by the difference. maybe my subwoofer cable was bad but there was clearly a difference that anyone could hear. XLR cables have 6 db more gain over RCA cables, which is why it was louder. XLR's also are better for longer runs (better noise rejection) but for a 6 ft cable if you play the source through XLR and RCA at matching sound levels you shouldn't hear any difference in audio quality. |
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Post by pknaz on Dec 11, 2017 0:53:31 GMT -5
The simple art of telling someone what they should hear, will often times influence them to believe they're hearing it. Or just even showing someone. I have posted this his before but it applies here. Love it - this perfectly "shows" exactly what I was trying to say. Our brains are very interesting things. If any other one of our senses is also providing information (and this can be as simple as the logo on a piece of gear that we have any presuppositions about) it will influence what we hear. I've attempted to make a distinction in my comments between what we hear, and reproducing sound. I don't believe they're the same thing. |
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Post by sahmen on Dec 11, 2017 6:34:54 GMT -5
"It helps that it is the only pair of ears I need to convince about anything" Well, one thing is for sure NOBODY could argue with that! Bill What can I say? This hobby comes with a ton of itsy bitsy nagging problems already, as it were... I try not to add to them unnecessarily    |
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 11, 2017 7:54:31 GMT -5
Well, one thing is for sure NOBODY could argue with that! Bill What can I say? This hobby comes with a ton of itsy bitsy nagging problems already, as it were... I try not to add to them unnecessarily Ha Ha.....I like those! |
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Post by copperpipe on Dec 11, 2017 9:14:33 GMT -5
Swapping cables is like swapping drinking glasses - you can use a $3 glass from Ikea or a $500 wine glass, but the water entering your mouth won't taste any different.
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 11, 2017 10:19:55 GMT -5
Swapping cables is like swapping drinking glasses - you can use a $3 glass from Ikea or a $500 wine glass, but the water entering your mouth won't taste any different. Let’s swap the water for Holiday Schnapps....! it’s PARTY 🎉 TIME |
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Post by jackfish on Dec 11, 2017 11:29:47 GMT -5
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 11, 2017 11:51:16 GMT -5
There is a third factor - and it is worth mentioning. I would call it "over generalizing" or "under generalizing". People DO often imagine things, but there are also some important details that are difficult to measure, or whose measurements can be tricky to interpret. In technical terms, a properly designed cable, when connected to a properly designed component, shouldn't usually make an audible difference. However, not all cables are well designed, and neither are all components. Some have actual design flaws or problems... while others may simply be less than perfect. For example, with most solid state preamps, and most solid state power amps, there should be no audible difference whether you use an interconnect that has 100 pF of capacitance, or one that has 300 pF of capacitance, to connect them together. However, this may not be true for ALL preamps and ALL power amps. Specifically, if you have a TUBE preamp, many of which have a somewhat high output impedance, the 300 pF cable may introduce a noticeable roll-off in the high end, while the 100 pF cable does not. (It's also possible that some few specific solid state preamps might also exhibit a higher-than-usual output impedance.) The usual catch here, and the one that leads to over generalizing, is that, for a person who happens to own one of those unusual preamps, those two cables may in fact sound different. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that the difference will exist for other people who own other more typical preamps. Likewise, while bits are bits, and a digital cable SHOULD "just work or not".... they aren't perfect either. Therefore, it's POSSIBLE that, with some specific piece of equipment, whose input or output circuitry isn't especially well designed, one cable may deliver a better picture than another. (It's not that the bits are different; it's that the particular piece of equipment may be able to read them correctly through one cable and not the other because of some tiny difference in signal level or bandwidth.) Of course, in this situation, you should be able to measure the difference - and demonstrate that you actually do have a lower Bit Error Rate with the cable that "works better". Always be wary when anyone claims "it works better", but seems unable to specify exactly WHAT the improvement is, and provide numbers to back up their claim. Also beware when the improvements they claim seem unlikely to have anything to do with the relevant performance metrics. For example, an audio cable that claims to give you "a purer darker background" should be able to show numbers demonstrating a higher S/N or a lower noise floor at audio frequencies. And a video cable should be able to show a better signal level, or a cleaner eye pattern, or lower jitter in the signal at the output, to prove that "it works better". (And an interconnect cable which claims to be more well shielded against microwaves, but doesn't claim a better measurable S/N at audio frequencies, probably won't SOUND any different.) In short, if someone claims that a certain cable "sounds better", they should be able to provide a technical reason that makes sense. The problem in these eternally unresolvable "cable" debates lies in two things: 1. the radically subjective nature of both human hearing and preferences regarding what is to be considered as sonically "pleasurable" or otherwise. 2. The relatively useful but ultimately fundamental inadequacy of so-called scientific protocols (along with their measurements, charts, calibrations, statistics, and other demonstrations) to settle conclusively or satisfactorily, questions raised by item 1. These two problems make up one particularly vicious circle that seems only able to generate one stalemate after another in these unending audiophile debates :   The most surprising thing to me about all of this, is how unrelated debates about cables that could be productive if pursued in other ways, seem, almost always, to get drawn inevitably into this same paralysing vortex. Ladies and Gents, enjoy the music. |
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Post by pedrocols on Dec 11, 2017 12:05:19 GMT -5
I can already see a dead horse. Who
else sees a dead horse? 😎
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Post by monkumonku on Dec 11, 2017 12:10:35 GMT -5
I can already see a dead horse. Who else sees a dead horse? 😎 |
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 11, 2017 12:15:17 GMT -5
"In short, if someone claims that a certain cable "sounds better", they should be able to provide a technical reason that makes sense." What Keith said....... Too bad it rarely happens Bill |
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Post by copperpipe on Dec 11, 2017 12:41:21 GMT -5
"In short, if someone claims that a certain cable "sounds better", they should be able to provide a technical reason that makes sense." What Keith said....... Too bad it rarely happens Bill There are people who cannot accept facts; like, the earth is round, but nothing will change there mind. Is it any wonder then, that when there is even the slightest hint of a possibility maybe that there could be a millionth of a fraction of an improvement (but never a reduction in quality, nope), that people will latch onto it? I say that will all respect, I used to suffer (and probably still do, if I'm honest) from a bit of that myself; confirmation bias can wreak havoc if you're not careful. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Dec 11, 2017 14:51:23 GMT -5
The earth is an oblate spheroid.
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 11, 2017 15:13:16 GMT -5
The earth is an oblate spheroid. I knew something was wrong Bill |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 11, 2017 15:32:59 GMT -5
I want to expand a bit on an excellent point that you brought up..... Assuming that you were to compare a new uber-expensive cable to your current one, and you did notice a tiny difference, WHY WOULD YOU ASSUME THE EXPENSIVE ONE IS BETTER? What if it's just a tiny bit different? Or what if it actually sounds worse? (Many of us have an unfortunate tendency to ASSUME that the expensive product is better.... which isn't always the case.) This, in turn, ties back to a few things I mentioned earlier, and to the part about claims requiring explanations (and not only explanations, but explanations that make sense). There are really four requirements for "a compelling reason to upgrade something": 1) the seller points out a problem - or something where there is obvious room for improvement 2) you are personally able to confirm that the problem exists - and exists in YOUR system ---(you may skip the first two steps if you yourself noticed the problem) 3) the seller explains how their product solves the problem - or improves the situation - with an explanation that makes sense 4) you are personally able to confirm that their product delivers the improvement they say it does The important thing to note is that ALL of these steps are subject to expectation bias. And, to be honest, they don't all occur in ways where you can identify or confirm them. HOWEVER, when all of them aren't clearly present and visible, then a LOT more care and skepticism is in order. As an example....... let's look at "ground noise in your USB DAC"...... and how that might work out..... 1) The seller of a new "USB filter" (I won't name names) suggests that noise coming in through the USB power connections is degrading the sound of your DAC. 2) You are able to confirm this because you've noticed that you hear little buzzy noises between tracks, and the buzzy noises seem to be related to what windows are open on your computer. 3) The seller says that their filter solves this problem by filtering the ground and power supply lines between the computer and your DAC - and so blocking the noise. 4) You try their product and confirm that the noises are gone. BUT.... what if step 2) is missing (because you DON'T hear little odd noises between tracks)? Well, for starters, step 4) is also going to be missing (since you couldn't confirm that the problem existed to begin with you can't confirm when it's gone). More to the point, however, if you imagine you hear some less definable sort of improvement, you should be a lot more skeptical that you're imaging it. And, what if, AFTER reading their extensive explanation about how bad USB power lines are, you suddenly believe you notice a tiny bit of noise you never noticed before - but you aren't sure. Well, perhaps you should be skeptical there too, and wonder if their explanation has convinced you to imagine the problem. (Maybe, with your system, that $10 USB cable really works perfectly, and there's nothing whatsoever you could do to make it better.... in fact, that's more likely than you might think.) And, if you suspect that might be the case, then maybe you should try extra hard to confirm that you really do have a problem. And what if, after installing their product, you believe you notice a tiny difference of some sort, but you can't even be sure what it is. Perhaps then you should be EXTRA skeptical. After all, their product could have solved a problem you never noticed, but it's just as likely that it caused a problem you didn't have before. It's really foolish to simply accept that what could merely be a random difference, or your imagination, MUST be an improvement because they say it is. (Unfortunately, in the audio industry, more than in most other industries, there are a lot of bogus products; and the only problem some of them solve is how to get your money into someone else's pocket.) And, on the notion of "subtle changes" and "subjective vs objective", I'll leave you with a hypothetical....... What if someone offered to perform a $10,000 upgrade on your car? It won't make the car go any faster... And it won't accelerate better... The emissions won't be lower... It won't be any quieter... The mileage won't be any better... And it won't even look any better... Would you even consider buying that "upgrade"? Isn't it odd how so many devices that promise to "give you a silky pitch black background" don't actually say how many dB they'll improve your signal-to-noise ratio.....? And how many of the ones that promise to make your system sound so much cleaner neglect to specify how much they lower the THD......? Just sayin'....  What Keith said....... Too bad it rarely happens Bill There are people who cannot accept facts; like, the earth is round, but nothing will change there mind. Is it any wonder then, that when there is even the slightest hint of a possibility maybe that there could be a millionth of a fraction of an improvement (but never a reduction in quality, nope), that people will latch onto it? I say that will all respect, I used to suffer (and probably still do, if I'm honest) from a bit of that myself; confirmation bias can wreak havoc if you're not careful. |
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Post by audiobill on Dec 11, 2017 16:28:12 GMT -5
On the other hand, all this is after all a hobby, and lots of folks just like to try something different from time to time....and the pseudoscience may help in the justification.....
But then cognitive dissonance kicks in (you come to love that for which you suffer), and the defense mechanisms kick in when challenged.
Then, around and around we go!
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Post by copperpipe on Dec 11, 2017 17:54:04 GMT -5
The earth is an oblate spheroid. Not from where I'm standing. Looks pretty flat to me... |
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Post by copperpipe on Dec 11, 2017 18:00:07 GMT -5
Isn't it odd how so many devices that promise to "give you a silky pitch black background" don't actually say how many dB they'll improve your signal-to-noise ratio.....? And how many of the ones that promise to make your system sound so much cleaner neglect to specify how much they lower the THD......? Just sayin'.... I guess one reason for that could be that the improvements are different for every system (they will say). So if you have no problems with your power supply then their upgrade won't help, but if you have large problems then their product might help a fair amount. I dunno. This is way outside my wheelhouse to be honest, but I do know that nobody who has upgraded their cables and proclaims they have since been enriched, can actually verify that using a DBT. They trot out words like "subjectivity" and "we all hear differently etc", but with all the fancy excuses aside nobody is able to pass the test when they don't know which cable is being used. Which is why I used the example of drinking glasses. Everybody knows that "glass is glass" and won't change the taste of the water. But applying that same simple logic to a copper wire, suddenly ... they can't grasp that "copper is copper". |
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Post by monkumonku on Dec 11, 2017 18:18:44 GMT -5
The earth is an oblate spheroid. Not from where I'm standing. Looks pretty flat to me... Well sorry, but you are sadly mistaken. The earth is round and I can safely say that based on my own personal empirical evidence. One day it was so very clear that when I looked due east through a telescope, I could see the back of my head. |
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Post by sahmen on Dec 11, 2017 19:08:31 GMT -5
In short, if someone claims that a certain cable "sounds better", they should be able to provide a technical reason that makes sense. Well, from the viewpoint of an average layman, who has no expertise in engineering, I do not think that this requirement is fair, or, at the very least, I do not think it can be always fair, the most obvious reason being that I might not have enough technical expertise to understand why or how a power cable sounds the way it does, even if an expert were to explain it to me... However that would not in itself make my experience inauthentic if I were to hear a difference. I may not be able to explain why a ginger/lemon/honey brew always relieves symptoms of a head-cold or flu for me, but if my inability to explain the cause or its effect does not make the relief the brew gives me any less palpable or comforting, why should I doubt the pleasurable difference a certain power cable makes, simply because i do not understand the cause of that pleasure? In actual fact, talking about not understanding or not being able to explain certain "scientific" processes, I have read thousands of pieces of audiophile literature containing technical words such as "capacitance," "inductance," "voltage swings," and "op-amps," and many others, yet I'm afraid I still don't understand half of them. In fact one could say that they still sound like greek to me, in the same way, that some audiophile claims might sound like "magic" or "voodoo science" to some experts and objectivists, but I digress... Then there is also the question of mixed signals that laymen like me often get from the experts in the industry who are supposed to be in the know. Ironically, it is a very respected figure in the manufacturing business (AudioGD's Kingwa/Qing Hua) who first turned me onto the idea of using aftermarket power cables when I first purchased my Audiogd NFB1amp to drive my Hifiman He-6. I liked everything about the way the cans sounded on this particular amp, except the bass, which did not seem to sound as tactile and as extended as the reviews of the cans had lead me to expect. When I consulted Kingwa about this slight bass issue via e-mail, he simply asked me to experiment with different power cables. Later, I realized he was simply repeating a piece of advice that is already expressed in the amp's user manual, namely that " The different signal cables and power cables can change the sound flavors of the unit". Well, I replaced the stock NFB1amp cable with a preowned Shunyata Research Diamondback Platinum cable I purchased off e-bay, and then boom!, the bottom-end of the He-6 filled out quite nicely, bringing out the meatiness and tactility, not to mention the tightness, of the bass I had read so much about, and that effect was immediately noticeable and not at all subtle. Now here are a few related observations: 1. I still have no clue, and cannot explain to anyone, why or how the Shunyata cable manages to add to the He-6, the bass extension and heft that goes missing whenever I revert back to the stock cable. 2. Does that mean that the Shunyata cable's added heft and extension are illusions? I think not, because with the right source material, the He-6 can, occasionally rock my head, almost like a small subwoofer's quake between the ears, and bring a smile to my face in a way that the stock cable almost never does. Besides, I do not think it is easy to be deceived about the meatiness and heft of the bass one is hearing or its absence. 3. Is this an example of confirmation/expectation bias? Well maybe, or actually yes... But the more interesting fact is that the possible presence of expectation or confirmation 'bias does not make my experience of the difference any less valid. I only see this as an example of a different cable changing the "flavor of the unit," as the manual and Kingwa himself promised. 4. Do I think there is something wrong with the original stock cable? Of course not, and Kingwa will not include a defective cable with any amp he is shipping, at least not knowingly. 5. Kingwa is not the only manufacturer in the industry who adopts this attitude toward power cables. My original Liquid Carbon headamp from Cavalli Audio did not come with any power cord because Dr. Alex Cavalli, who is also another respected name in the headamp industry, did not expect buyers from within the audiophile community to use the stock power cord anyway. 6. I gather from all of this evidence, not that "science" conclusively disproves the idea that different power cables can make a difference in sq, but rather that the scientists in the industry themselves (in this particular case, the manufacturers of amplifiers, rather than the makers of boutique power cords whom I am deliberately leaving out of the equation) are not in entire agreement in the way they judge the ability of different power cables to make a difference on their products, which is why a layman like me gets mixed-and sometimes conflicting- signals about this same phenomenon from different amp manufacturers. I leave readers to do with all of this whatever they will. |
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