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Post by dsonyay on Mar 24, 2018 10:46:28 GMT -5
Hi.. I ran the Little Ego with home laptop and seems to be fine.. lotta little things to know besides just plugging into laptop... but will figure it all out later. Mainly using this with my WORK Provided laptop which will not let me install programs , drivers, etc, Basically unless I have Admin I can't do anything.. lol So I installed Little Ego into my work laptop using driverless option.. (holding down filter button while inserting). But the 96K bitrate light displays.. even whike playing some of my CD rips which I know were ripped 44.1. And when streaming Tidal, same thing. Cant be 94K correct? So, why is that? Attachments:
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Post by vcautokid on Mar 24, 2018 11:16:33 GMT -5
Keith?
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Mar 26, 2018 0:42:48 GMT -5
The driverless (UAC1) mode on the Ego DACs supports up to 24/96k - so no surprise there. Now, as to why you would see that sample rate from a CD RIP.... By default, both Apple and Windows computers require you to set a default sample rate for the computer. They then re-sample whatever you play to that default sample rate. (So your computer is probably set for a default sample rate of 96k.) In order to avoid resampling you need to use a player program that supports "bit perfect playback". For Windows that would be any program that supports "WASAPI mode" (jRiver Media Center and Foobar2000 are the most popular Windows players). For an Apple computer, you would want somthing that supports "bit perfect mode" (jRiver Media Center, Amarra, or Audirvana). TIDAL has its own settings (by default it will probably use the default Windows settings). You'll want to set it to do WASAPI.... and probably enable Exclusive Mode. Hi.. I ran the Little Ego with home laptop and seems to be fine.. lotta little things to know besides just plugging into laptop... but will figure it all out later. Mainly using this with my WORK Provided laptop which will not let me install programs , drivers, etc, Basically unless I have Admin I can't do anything.. lol So I installed Little Ego into my work laptop using driverless option.. (holding down filter button while inserting). But the 96K bitrate light displays.. even whike playing some of my CD rips which I know were ripped 44.1. And when streaming Tidal, same thing. Cant be 94K correct? So, why is that? |
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Post by dsonyay on Mar 26, 2018 13:27:30 GMT -5
Thanks Keith... I'm running driverless mode on a Work PC (with heavy restriction on what I can do).. and all I can use is Windows Media Player.. I don't think I can select Wasapi in WMP..I did see a box checked under WMP settings with 24k (bit rate?) checked, or it may have been under the sounds folder in management section of windows.. I'm going to relook and uncheck (if it lets me) the 24k box. But kinda confuses me why Im seeing 96k (sample rate, correct?) on the ego.
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Post by millst on Mar 27, 2018 11:09:28 GMT -5
WMP uses WASAPI, but not exclusive mode. You're going to be stuck with whatever the system sample rate is with that. The upsampling in regular WASAPI mode is pretty decent, unlike the KMixer days. It's probably easiest to just leave it at 96k unless all your tracks are the same sample rate.
You can manually change the system sample rate by right-clicking the speaker icon in the tray, pulling up playback devices, getting properties of the DAC, switching to the advanced tab, and changing the default format. Of course that applies to everything the system plays and won't work well if your tracks vary in sample rate.
Another option, even without admin access, you could probably install foobar2000 in portable mode. Not sure if that violates your IT policy, however.
-tm
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 27, 2018 11:55:52 GMT -5
The display on the Ego will always report the sample rate of the data it is receiving. It is showing 96k because that's what your computer is sending it... almost certainly because the default sample rate in Windows is set to 96k (which instructs it to resample everything to that sample rate). (Assuming you're not going to use any of the player programs which enable you to avoid resampling entirely by using WASAPI mode, this is probably a good choice.) Most folks refer to "WASAPI" as being one of the exclusive modes - which AVOID resampling ("push" and "event"). It is more typical to refer to modes that allow resampling as "DS" or "kernel" mode. (Foobar2000 refers to your choices in Windows 7 as "WASAPI - event", "WASAPI - push", and "DS"; some others have a check box for "Exclusive Mode".) I guess they're all technically part of the Windows Audio System Application Programming Interface - WASAPI. You are correct that the resampling in recent Windows versions isn't bad.... and, specifically, UPsampling is usually relatively innocuous (so you can just set the sample rate to match the highest sample rate files you have.). But, because the audible quality of various methods of resampling remains largely an unknown, most audiophiles prefer to avoid any doubts and play all their music at its native sample rate. (Most people seem to agree that it isn't too bad in recent versions of Windows - after Windows XP - but not everyone agrees.) There is no general setting in Windows itself to configure it NOT to re-sample. I am also unaware of any such settings in Windows Media Player (I believe WMP is also discontinued) - although there is a "new/retro" version of it available. I have heard some rumors that there may be some sort of plugin that would enable WMP to do WASAPI modes that avoid resampling... but I haven't seen any details. (I should also note that the audio quality on most videos found on places like YouTube isn't especially good anyway - so it may simply be not that critical.) If you can run a player like FooBar2000, which does have full WASAPI support, its configuration is separate from Windows default configuration.... So you can configure Foobar2000 to use WASAPI, and set it to use a particular output device, without changing the default Windows settings. You should also be aware that some player programs, like jRiver Media Center, use WASAPI mode to keep Windows from doing any re-sampling, but offer their own internal DSP software re-sampling (which can be disabled). Your IT department may not allow you to install your own software, or to change the sound settings (if you use exclusive mode you may lose the ability to hear system sounds - including alarms and notifications.) If they DO allow you to use a separate program like FooBar2000, it has its own sound settings, so you won't have to change the default Windows settings. Note that, in driverless (UAC1) mode, the highest sample rate supported by your Ego DAC is 96k. WMP uses WASAPI, but not exclusive mode. You're going to be stuck with whatever the system sample rate is with that. The upsampling in regular WASAPI mode is pretty decent, unlike the KMixer days. It's probably easiest to just leave it at 96k unless all your tracks are the same sample rate. You can manually change the system sample rate by right-clicking the speaker icon in the tray, pulling up playback devices, getting properties of the DAC, switching to the advanced tab, and changing the default format. Of course that applies to everything the system plays and won't work well if your tracks vary in sample rate. Another option, even without admin access, you could probably install foobar2000 in portable mode. Not sure if that violates your IT policy, however. -tm |
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Post by garbulky on Mar 27, 2018 12:13:49 GMT -5
WMP uses WASAPI, but not exclusive mode. You're going to be stuck with whatever the system sample rate is with that. The upsampling in regular WASAPI mode is pretty decent, unlike the KMixer days. It's probably easiest to just leave it at 96k unless all your tracks are the same sample rate. You can manually change the system sample rate by right-clicking the speaker icon in the tray, pulling up playback devices, getting properties of the DAC, switching to the advanced tab, and changing the default format. Of course that applies to everything the system plays and won't work well if your tracks vary in sample rate. Another option, even without admin access, you could probably install foobar2000 in portable mode. Not sure if that violates your IT policy, however. -tm I don't think windows use WASAPI. I talked to the guy that acquired and implemented WASAPI for MS (amirm from Audio Science Review) and I think he said Windows Media Player cannot do WASAPI. Though it has been some time so I could be wrong. He also said you can't use a browser to implement WASAPI mode for say youtube videos and stuff. |
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Post by millst on Mar 27, 2018 12:27:33 GMT -5
Yes, and most folks are technically wrong  Using WASAPI does not necessarily avoid resampling, it just shifts the burden to the audio program. If non-exclusive/shared WASAPI mode is used, then everything is still resampled (up or down, as necessary) by the application to match the system output format. Even when exclusive mode is used, the resampling decision is left to the audio program (which is free to choose any output format, possibly modifying the audio). No DS (DirectSound) is a totally different API than WASAPI. Output is automatically resampled to meet the system setting. -tm |
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Post by millst on Mar 27, 2018 12:29:48 GMT -5
I don't think windows use WASAPI. I talked to the guy that acquired and implemented WASAPI for MS (amirm from Audio Science Review) and I think he said Windows Media Player cannot do WASAPI. Though it has been some time so I could be wrong. He also said you can't use a browser to implement WASAPI mode for say youtube videos and stuff. Definitely possible. WMP might just be going through DS to get the auto resample. DS is just a wrapper for WASAPI in Windows 7 and up. It's definitely not using the WASAPI exclusive mode was more my point. -tm |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 27, 2018 14:00:15 GMT -5
As far as I know Windows Media Player is now discontinued, but it available as some sort of third-party "retro" reissue... So it may have slightly different abilities than before. However, as a generalization, as far as I know, ALL of the player programs that come with Windows do re-sampling, including Windows Media Player and the Groove player (Windows 10). In contrast, most "high quality" player programs, including FooBar2000 and jRiver Media Center, do offer the option of using one of the WASAPI exclusive modes that avoid it. As noted, in the appropriate WASAPI mode, Windows will NOT automatically re-sample... but it does nothing to prevent your player program form doing so before passing the audio to Windows. (However, any high-quality audio player should offer you the option of specifically disabling re-sampling, or allow you to configure it to act as you like.) Given the choice, I actually prefer how jRiver Media Center addresses this... In jRiver, there is a configuration page where you can INDIVIDUALLY configure whether audio is re-sampled for each different source file sample rate. So, for use with an Ego DAC, in UAC1 mode, where the top sample rate is 96k...... You can configure jRiver to play all audio files at sample rates UP TO AND INCLUDING 96k at their native sample rate... (no re-sampling). And configure it to play all audio files at sample rates above 96k by re-sampling them to 96k. (It's under "DSP settings" - presumably because the re-sampling counts as a DSP function.) In contrast, when used in WASAPI mode, FoobBar2000 will NEVER re-sample... and so will give you an error if you try to play a file whose sample rate your DAC doesn't support. I don't think windows use WASAPI. I talked to the guy that acquired and implemented WASAPI for MS (amirm from Audio Science Review) and I think he said Windows Media Player cannot do WASAPI. Though it has been some time so I could be wrong. He also said you can't use a browser to implement WASAPI mode for say youtube videos and stuff. Definitely possible. WMP might just be going through DS to get the auto resample. DS is just a wrapper for WASAPI in Windows 7 and up. It's definitely not using the WASAPI exclusive mode was more my point. -tm |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 27, 2018 14:02:17 GMT -5
Most people consider DS to be the "default sound mode" for Windows. I don't think windows use WASAPI. I talked to the guy that acquired and implemented WASAPI for MS (amirm from Audio Science Review) and I think he said Windows Media Player cannot do WASAPI. Though it has been some time so I could be wrong. He also said you can't use a browser to implement WASAPI mode for say youtube videos and stuff. Definitely possible. WMP might just be going through DS to get the auto resample. DS is just a wrapper for WASAPI in Windows 7 and up. It's definitely not using the WASAPI exclusive mode was more my point. -tm |
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Post by millst on Mar 27, 2018 14:29:01 GMT -5
As noted, in the appropriate WASAPI mode, Windows will NOT automatically re-sample... but it does nothing to prevent your player program form doing so before passing the audio to Windows. (However, any high-quality audio player should offer you the option of specifically disabling re-sampling, or allow you to configure it to act as you like.) Going to nitpick a little more. Windows never resamples anything from an application using WASAPI. It does not matter whether the mode is WASAPI shared or WASAPI exclusive. Also, the app is always free to mangle the data, regardless of mode. The benefits of using WASAPI are improved quality and/or reduced latency so most programs that use it are going to do the right thing, as you already noted. The API just gives you a raw buffer to fill. In shared mode, the API tells you the buffer format (based on system settings). In exclusive mode, you get to choose any output format the device supports. In both cases, you must do all the work to get it in the right format. Populating it with data in the wrong format will just result in unpleasant noise. Any automatic resampling is happening in higher level APIs e.g. DS. -tm |
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Post by dsonyay on Mar 27, 2018 15:32:13 GMT -5
You can manually change the system sample rate by right-clicking the speaker icon in the tray, pulling up playback devices, getting properties of the DAC, switching to the advanced tab, and changing the default format. Of Another option, even without admin access, you could probably install foobar2000 in portable mode. Not sure if that violates your IT policy, however. -tm Cool.. I will try FOObar in portable mode.. and was able to adjust sample rate per your note. Thanks very much |
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Post by millst on Mar 27, 2018 15:54:12 GMT -5
NP. JRiver MC is another option with portable installation. Keith already mentioned it. Very powerful, but down side is that it's not free (30-day trial).
-tm
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Post by dsonyay on Mar 27, 2018 18:19:34 GMT -5
NP. JRiver MC is another option with portable installation. Keith already mentioned it. Very powerful, but down side is that it's not free (30-day trial). -tm Using JRiver at home on my personal laptop.. it is a very good program, and considering buying it. Tried MusicBee, but didn't like it.. way too busy and difficult for me to customize.. might try Foobar at home later. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 28, 2018 9:52:53 GMT -5
For those not familiar wit FooBar2000...... Foobar2000 is a very highly regarded FREE music player for Windows (there is no Apple version). It is not "trial ware" or "shareware"; it really is free to use forever. Foobar2000 also uses plugins to add various functionality. What I wanted to note here is that, in order to use WASAPI mode in Foobar2000, you WILL have to download and install the WASAPI plugin first. Once you install the plugin, the various WASAPI modes will appear, listed separately for each output device, under Output Preferences. You will find the latest version of the WASAPI plugin on the Components page of the Foobar2000 website ( www.foobar2000.org ); it is also free. You can manually change the system sample rate by right-clicking the speaker icon in the tray, pulling up playback devices, getting properties of the DAC, switching to the advanced tab, and changing the default format. Of Another option, even without admin access, you could probably install foobar2000 in portable mode. Not sure if that violates your IT policy, however. -tm Cool.. I will try FOObar in portable mode.. and was able to adjust sample rate per your note. Thanks very much |
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Post by dsonyay on Mar 28, 2018 10:13:06 GMT -5
Thanks Keith... gonna give Fubar a try tomorrow night when I return home.
For now I'm using my LE with my work Laptop (driverless mode) through WMP. My work laptop is heavily restricted. It wouldn't even allow me to download Fubar2000 so I could try to run it in portable.
Using with WMP sounds fine, but unsure how the data is handled by windows10.. but it is soooo much louder lol, so a lot of the improvement is ampification alone.
Also, I'm using a very cheap set of earbuds (10 dollar Skullcandy) while pondering all the headphone / earbud choices.. trying to get something at or below 100 for now. So many choices.
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Using WASAPI does not necessarily avoid resampling, it just shifts the burden to the audio program. If non-exclusive/shared WASAPI mode is used, then everything is still resampled (up or down, as necessary) by the application to match the system output format. Even when exclusive mode is used, the resampling decision is left to the audio program (which is free to choose any output format, possibly modifying the audio).