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Post by pknaz on Apr 12, 2018 18:46:00 GMT -5
Room treatments will trump the differences in amps all day long. If your room isn't properly treated already, and you have an itch to improve something, that is where I would start. Once your room is properly treated and you still think you're missing something, grab a glass, some ice and a few pours of your favorite adult beverage and sit back and enjoy the music  |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Apr 12, 2018 22:08:20 GMT -5
Maybe I am mistaken, but if he is doing 2.1 then he has a crossover set on the L/R speakers. When you take the low end out of the L/R speakers they become much easier to drive. I just don't think he would see a huge difference in going to a XPA-2 amp if he is still running a sub. Don't get me wrong it would be a difference, but would it be a difference worth $1000 (or say $700ish for a used one)? If he was not running the sub then I think the difference may be more pronounced. Just to clarify. I have a 14x18x8 room with several double door openings. The room does a good job of preventing too much reflection from a wall standpoint. The "running a 2.1 system" is configured with large front speakers and the MC-700 has a feature called "doublebass" which allows running the sub with the bass coming out of the fronts as well (set as large). I use "stereo" mode so the LFE is directed to the sub and the unit uses the room EQ provided from the EMO-Q. The reality is I would be spending a grand to "make a difference" realizing that I may very well be the only one who would appreciate or notice the slight difference, but that is me (we all have a little of that disease). The A-500 is rated at 190 watts for a 4 ohm load (probably more in line with the overall ELAC impedance) and like I said, this conversation is exclusively for 2 channel stereo listening. Also, as a side note I am typically listening to either CD's or music from the PC via HDMI with a lossless codec. I generally find the quality of sound to be much more driven from the source material than anything else (good and bad recordings of all types). I have also run a turntable for some vinyl listening and I am kind of old school, some vinyl is great, but all will get poor over time. Thx. (not THX) |
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Post by leonski on Apr 12, 2018 22:32:53 GMT -5
Don't forget, EX, that the 'A' Series amps are all rated at 1% distortion for the 4ohm measure. This is generally considered 'redline' for an amp. While 1% might be an 'arbitrary' number, for most amps, distortion rises dramatically or IS rising dramatically with power from that point onward. If you read an amp test, they might refer to 'headroom' which is the power over and above the 'rated' power before which it reaches the 1% level. My amps, for example, are said to have 1.5db headroom. This is not a continueous number, but rather, I think,
a dybamic or short time period value.
I owned RSL speakers way back when. At that point, there were 3 or 4 stores with NON-commission sales guys who eventually bought the entire chain from 'the boss'.
The speakers I owned were 12" ported 3-way which were very good copies of the JBL 4311 or maybe the L100. If you're curious, look up 'RSL SpeedScreen' which was a well regarded original design.
25 or 30 years later, the original owner BOUGHT his own name back and came out with the new line.
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Post by teaman on Apr 12, 2018 23:41:27 GMT -5
I guess I am getting more confused after each post. This amp is strictly powering two speakers for music. Why get a five channel amp at all? Why not get a two channel amp?
I still by my previous post that you have power hungry inefficient speakers and would greatly benefit from an X series amp. If it is just about the money, buy a used one with remaining warranty for less. You won't regret a XPA-2 if that ends up being where you go. I just think you are going to drain the amp on those speakers even with a sub, even more so since you are running your fronts as large full range....the extended bass for the LFE is not going to take that much stress off your amp if running as large.
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Post by leonski on Apr 13, 2018 2:17:16 GMT -5
Teaman, it's worse than you think.
Speakers rated 85db sensitivity @2.83volts which is 1 watt @8ohms. Unfortunately, these are 4ohm rated speakers which means 2 volts is 1 watt.
So I'd subtract 3db and call 'em 82db. Now the only thing lacking is 'can you biamp' them? And I'd also say given the REST of the system, that one of the XPA or XPR 5 channel amps would be the target piece.
This is not necessarily a 'difficult' to drive speaker. That data is missing. But the low sensitivity IS something to consider. ELAC says a maximum of 140 watts.
The OP is running his system in a 2000 cubic foot room. Not all that large, which really helps.
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Post by rbk123 on Apr 13, 2018 8:48:13 GMT -5
Audiophiles are always obsessed with the amp, and for some reason, it's the piece they want to upgrade and/or spend the most on. If you're going spend $1k to improve things, room treatments and different speakers are where you should put the money first. Note, I am NOT saying your ELACs are bad, just that speaker differences are vastly greater than amplifier differences so logically it is much better bang for your $$ for audio spending.
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Post by davidl81 on Apr 13, 2018 8:55:18 GMT -5
Audiophiles are always obsessed with the amp, and for some reason, it's the piece they want to upgrade and/or spend the most on. If you're going spend $1k to improve things, room treatments and different speakers are where you should put the money first. Note, I am NOT saying your ELACs are bad, just that speaker differences are vastly greater than amplifier differences so logically it is much better bang for your $$ for audio spending. From first hand experience I can agree 100% with this statement. Of course if you are running a way under powered amp or something from an AVR then going to a higher level amp is one thing, but in your case you have a pretty good amp. If you got the XPA-2 I just don't think you would see that big of a difference with the current speakers that you have (they are good speakers, but I just don't see them benefiting that much from a stronger amp). One reason that you may consider the XPA-2 is if you think you may upgrade to larger speakers in the future. Then I think its easy to justify going to the XPA-2 as it is just a step in an overall process. I just don't think you will get $700 worth of upgrade in your current setup by putting a bigger amp right now (but I am the guy who although being told not to went ahead and bought a DR-2 to get virtually no improvement from my XPA-2) |
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Post by davidl81 on Apr 13, 2018 8:57:49 GMT -5
Audiophiles are always obsessed with the amp, and for some reason, it's the piece they want to upgrade and/or spend the most on. If you're going spend $1k to improve things, room treatments and different speakers are where you should put the money first. Note, I am NOT saying your ELACs are bad, just that speaker differences are vastly greater than amplifier differences so logically it is much better bang for your $$ for audio spending. I think upgrading amps is just easier than other upgrades, and that is why so many people obsess with it. For the most part it is as simple as unplugging one amp and plugging in the other amp. |
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Post by brutiarti on Apr 13, 2018 9:08:08 GMT -5
Audiophiles are always obsessed with the amp, and for some reason, it's the piece they want to upgrade and/or spend the most on. If you're going spend $1k to improve things, room treatments and different speakers are where you should put the money first. Note, I am NOT saying your ELACs are bad, just that speaker differences are vastly greater than amplifier differences so logically it is much better bang for your $$ for audio spending. This |
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Post by teaman on Apr 13, 2018 13:37:51 GMT -5
Audiophiles are always obsessed with the amp, and for some reason, it's the piece they want to upgrade and/or spend the most on. If you're going spend $1k to improve things, room treatments and different speakers are where you should put the money first. Note, I am NOT saying your ELACs are bad, just that speaker differences are vastly greater than amplifier differences so logically it is much better bang for your $$ for audio spending. I think overall speakers will make the most difference in a system. They actually inherently provide a different tonal quality for music. Amps for the most part will sound the same, regardless of manufacturer. I have heard some good Bryston amps and they sound considerably better than my Emotiva amps, although not enough to justify their purchase with my money. Good speakers and a good sub can make even an AVR sound good. There are of course some $1000+ AVR's that you will provide ample power, and sound very good but overall at that price point I would rather seek out separates. |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 13, 2018 13:59:24 GMT -5
Audiophiles are always obsessed with the amp, and for some reason, it's the piece they want to upgrade and/or spend the most on. If you're going spend $1k to improve things, room treatments and different speakers are where you should put the money first. Note, I am NOT saying your ELACs are bad, just that speaker differences are vastly greater than amplifier differences so logically it is much better bang for your $$ for audio spending. I think upgrading amps is just easier than other upgrades, and that is why so many people obsess with it. For the most part it is as simple as unplugging one amp and plugging in the other amp. Yeah, I agree. The sensible thing is to upgrade speakers. But it's such a hard decision to make. They are big. You have to go to a store to hear them or you'll feel bad if you end up with a turd. Electronics are much easier to sell than speakers if it doesn't work out. On the other hand, it's hard to wind up with gear that's terrible. So you don't lose that much if it doesn't work out. Having said that, I think the reason people don't upgrade the speakers is simply that they like the speakers they have and the sound they produce. They are just looking for an incrementatl extra step. Which I guess in a way is where I am. I really do like my speakers and I feel their main lack is that last bit of bass extension. The oter speakers I've heard, only very few have provided audibly better or at least different sound. Out of them, only one (Emotiva T2) is priced at a range similar to what I paid for them. All the other ones cost between 2-6 times the cost of the speakers. And to be honest most of them simply sound different rather than a home run better in quality. |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Apr 13, 2018 14:30:02 GMT -5
To follow up;
I am totally pleased with the ELAC UF5 speakers. You would be extremely hard pressed to beat their sound quality with speakers that cost 2x what they cost. I did audition Golden Ear Triton 7's, Magnepan .7 and in that class the ELAC was a winner for me. Undoubtedly, the biggest difference comes from the source material, I have CD's that are exceptional recordings (Mark Knopfler, Nora Jones, Bonnie Rait) and some duds (older Steely Dan, Linda Ronstadt, Blues Traveler). I did upgrade from a non-descript AVR to the MC-700 and A-500 and that made a world of difference. Adding a tight sub for a mild bass boost was also added a more full sound. The system is a 5.1 system for occasional movie watching, but the most pleasing work the system does is play music.
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Post by leonski on Apr 13, 2018 14:33:57 GMT -5
What if you LIKE your speakers? Upgrade and 'run the risk'?
And to Garbulky? You hit on something here. Very, Very, FEW bargains. Good value? Yes. But not many (I'd say any) components are so much better than other stuff as to be compared to similar gear at some multiple of the price.
Opinions will vary, and that's OK, but I'd suggest that those persons see value that others may not agree with.
I like the idea of improving the room. A good stereo in a terrific room really is outstanding.
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Post by whitwye on Jul 2, 2018 17:36:49 GMT -5
From my experience, I strongly disagree with the widely-repeated claim that amp quality doesn't matter. When I went from a Denon 2-channel AVR (model slips my mind) to an Onkyo TX NR-828 there was a big difference -- with the same speakers. Then upgraded the speakers, which was worthwhile, but when I went to using an A-300 for the front 2 channels, big difference. Then when I put the rest of the speakers on an A-700, again a big difference, plus a smooth blend with the A-300-driven channels. Sound that's lost in the earlier stages can never be regained in the speakers. On the other hand, speaker coloration can be corrected in the brain, just as visual coloration is corrected as the spectrum of daylight changes over the hours of a day. Some speakers sound much prettier than others, granted. And some do lose significant information, obviously. But the amplifier stages are critical, and cannot be compensated for effectively later in the chain.
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