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Post by novisnick on Jul 21, 2018 1:13:24 GMT -5
No external PS yet. Need to fatten up the thin little piggy bank! 😋 |
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Post by Jean Genie on Jul 21, 2018 10:01:04 GMT -5
Switchers often have better transient response than linear supplies. They recharge the caps much more often, albeit often smaller caps, and the high switching frequency requires higher-frequency caps and control circuits. Properly designed SMPS can be as quiet or quieter than linear supplies. Poorly designed of either suck (too tired to write even hand-waving technical stuff tonight). One drawback with SMPS is that they tend to kick back more high-frequency energy to the source, whether the wall output or a rectified DC source. That can inject noise into other components (assuming their power supply rejection is inadequate, hopefully rare). IME/IMO - Don "can inject noise into other components ..." Just out of curiosity (and/or ignorance), does this manifest as "feedback" or other audible artifacts ? |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 21, 2018 10:25:23 GMT -5
Switchers often have better transient response than linear supplies. They recharge the caps much more often, albeit often smaller caps, and the high switching frequency requires higher-frequency caps and control circuits. Properly designed SMPS can be as quiet or quieter than linear supplies. Poorly designed of either suck (too tired to write even hand-waving technical stuff tonight). One drawback with SMPS is that they tend to kick back more high-frequency energy to the source, whether the wall output or a rectified DC source. That can inject noise into other components (assuming their power supply rejection is inadequate, hopefully rare). IME/IMO - Don "can inject noise into other components ..." Just out of curiosity (and/or ignorance), does this manifest as "feedback" or other audible artifacts ? No a switching P/S might have a higher noise floor, meaning lower S/N, making the quietest portions of a track or the spaces between tracks are not as "black" or as quiet as they could be. The difference is normally subtle and only noticeable if you try a different P/S. In some very rare and extreme examples it might be possible that a P/S adds a hum or a buzz to the sound, but that would more likely indicate something is broken rather than simply improved operation. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 10:33:00 GMT -5
I know that computer PS are horrible for playing music (I said playing, not streaming)
I've been out of the business for 15+ yrs, but I know with the advancement in chips & components themselves, Power Supplies are a science.
The PS is always designed after the load is designed- what does the engineer wants it to do- ie which design is better for the application and cost (of course)
geeqner is correct in his explanation.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 21, 2018 10:47:56 GMT -5
I know that computer PS are horrible for playing music (I said playing, not streaming) I've been out of the business for 15+ yrs, but I know with the advancement in chips & components themselves, Power Supplies are a science. The PS is always designed after the load is designed- what does the engineer wants it to do- ie which design is better for the application and cost (of course) geeqner is correct in his explanation. Or in the case of wall warts, the component designer chooses one from a manufacturer's catalog that has the correct output. This is when a purpose-designed P/S can usually offer better performance. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 11:00:56 GMT -5
wall-warts - yuk.
They may be ok for the load, but what they do to everything else on that branch circuit is horrifying in many circumstances. lol.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 21, 2018 11:36:39 GMT -5
wall-warts - yuk. They may be ok for the load, but what they do to everything else on that branch circuit is horrifying in many circumstances. lol. Some switching ones, yes. I have some linear wall warts that cause no issues whatever. |
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Post by Jean Genie on Jul 21, 2018 15:06:57 GMT -5
"can inject noise into other components ..." Just out of curiosity (and/or ignorance), does this manifest as "feedback" or other audible artifacts ? No a switching P/S might have a higher noise floor, meaning lower S/N, making the quietest portions of a track or the spaces between tracks are not as "black" or as quiet as they could be. The difference is normally subtle and only noticeable if you try a different P/S. In some very rare and extreme examples it might be possible that a P/S adds a hum or a buzz to the sound, but that would more likely indicate something is broken rather than simply improved operation. Thanks for clarifying. |
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Post by novisnick on Jul 21, 2018 15:31:10 GMT -5
 My Brooklyn DAC is listening,,,,,,Shhhhhhh |
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Post by audiobill on Jul 21, 2018 16:48:26 GMT -5
Ditch the switching and lps....here's Audio Note's version of a high end power supply - no digital hash.... "The magic behind the Mentor The Level 5 power supply is the magic behind the Mentor. It’s our recently developed and highest level power supply specification with over specified Mains, Dual 4 pole chokes & 2 x 5U4G Tube Rectification, 35mm Mundorf Mlytic Power Supply Capacitors and SHUNT regulation. SHUNT regulation provides an additional reservoir of current (30ma) to be running from B+ at all times separate from the standard current draw of the line stage. Thus when music makes quick changes and demands instantaneous current addition, this additional current will come from the SHUNT resistor mounted on the chassis." www.tubecad.com/july99/page12.html |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 21, 2018 18:07:20 GMT -5
Hold me back.  |
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Post by donh50 on Jul 21, 2018 18:15:15 GMT -5
Switchers often have better transient response than linear supplies. They recharge the caps much more often, albeit often smaller caps, and the high switching frequency requires higher-frequency caps and control circuits. Properly designed SMPS can be as quiet or quieter than linear supplies. Poorly designed of either suck (too tired to write even hand-waving technical stuff tonight). One drawback with SMPS is that they tend to kick back more high-frequency energy to the source, whether the wall output or a rectified DC source. That can inject noise into other components (assuming their power supply rejection is inadequate, hopefully rare). IME/IMO - Don "can inject noise into other components ..." Just out of curiosity (and/or ignorance), does this manifest as "feedback" or other audible artifacts ? Most modern SMPS (switch-mode power supplies) include input circuitry to provide power-factor correction and filter the input source (e.g. wall socket) from the high-frequency current pulses the SMPS requires. Older or cheaper designs without those features can inject high-frequency noise back into the source, leading to problems in other components. As DYohn said it can manifest in different ways. A really clean switching power supply can be much better than a linear supply; lower noise, better regulation, and the switching frequency is well above the audio band unlike linear supplies. But, if poorly designed they can have higher noise floor, and if it and/or the component in which it is used is poorly shielded, or it couples to other poorly-shielded components, they can suffer the effects of EMI/RFI. That can do anything from raise the noise floor to adding strange tones and buzzes to the output. Like everything else, there are good ones and bad ones out there, linear or SMPS... HTH, IME/IMO, FWIWFM, YMMV, my 0.000001 cent (microcent), etc. - Don |
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Post by novisnick on Aug 1, 2018 12:02:55 GMT -5
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Post by novisnick on Aug 16, 2018 14:23:56 GMT -5
Ditch the switching and lps....here's Audio Note's version of a high end power supply - no digital hash.... "The magic behind the Mentor The Level 5 power supply is the magic behind the Mentor. It’s our recently developed and highest level power supply specification with over specified Mains, Dual 4 pole chokes & 2 x 5U4G Tube Rectification, 35mm Mundorf Mlytic Power Supply Capacitors and SHUNT regulation. SHUNT regulation provides an additional reservoir of current (30ma) to be running from B+ at all times separate from the standard current draw of the line stage. Thus when music makes quick changes and demands instantaneous current addition, this additional current will come from the SHUNT resistor mounted on the chassis." www.tubecad.com/july99/page12.htmlThis is all Greek to me! Is this what’s integrated into their gear? I’m not too bright today as I haven’t a clue about this. |
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Post by audiobill on Aug 16, 2018 17:03:51 GMT -5
All about tube power supply!!
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Post by novisnick on Aug 16, 2018 17:17:21 GMT -5
All about tube power supply!! Funny, now I get it completely! Thanks. |
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Post by KeithL on Aug 17, 2018 12:56:23 GMT -5
It's not just Greek to YOU... it's simply a somewhat garbled explanation about what a shunt regulator is and what it does. (A shunt regulator does not specifically provide extra current, and current most certainly is NOT provided from a resistor on the chassis... although they have other advantages.)
To use the water analogy......
Compare a normal power supply setup, with a normal regulator, to a water tower. The height of the tower provides your water pressure.
A standard regulator would work by monitoring the height of the water in the tower, and ADDING more water to raise the level when it starts to drop slightly. (Like the float valve in your toilet tank.)
A shunt regulator is almost the exact reverse. With a shunt regulator, you have a pipe steadily pouring water into the tower. The level of water in the tower is monitored, and is controlled by DRAINING out the excess water until the level stays where it should.
In the simplest version, you could punch a hole in the side of the tower at the preferred level... that hole would act as a SHUNT... maintaining the water at the proper level. (The more current the load draws, the less current the shunt is forced to "shunt to ground".)
While the shunt design sounds horribly inefficient, it can be made somewhat less so by careful design matching, and it does have other slight advantages in certain circumstances.
A normal regulator will draw different amounts of current depending on what the load uses. If the source feeding it deosn't respond well to changes in current demand this can be a limitation. (For example, the power supplies in many tube amps, especially those that use tube rectifiers, suffer from major voltage fluctuations when the load varies.)
In contrast, a shunt regulator tends to draw the same amount of current no matter what...
When the load uses less current, more current is shunted to ground (dumped)... when the load uses more, less is shunted to ground... but the total stays about the same.
This works well with power sources that prefer to operate by supplying a steady amount of current... (We say that, regardless of how much power the amplifier uses, the power supply sees a steady load.)
Because of the way they're designed... this is true for many tube amp power supplies... especially those that use tube rectifiers... and those with choke inputs.
The article in TubeCad is quite thorough - as are all of their articles.
I should note, however, that many of the circuits in TubeCad are quite advanced. They also have a tendency to design rather unique solutions and circuits. And some of their designs are "concept designs" that still need significant development to be used in practical applications.
In other words, many of their designs are quite sophisticated, and work very well. However, if you're a beginner, hoping to learn how typical tube equipment works, they may be a bad starting point. They're really geared towards someone with a lot of engineering knowledge who is simply unfamiliar with tubes...
Or towards someone who is already very familiar with tubes and tube designs, and wants to explore interesting and unique circuit designs.
Their site is really geared towards advanced tube designers and tinkerers. However, if you fit that description, then it's probably the best site out there for you 
For example, on the second page of the article in the link, they suggest a way to shunt-regulate a dual-rail supply with a single active element. Such a design may indeed work well to regulate noise appearing across both rails... which seems to be their goal.
However, it cannot provide ANY separate independent DC load regulation for the plus and minus rails. Because of this limitation, it would work well in some applications, and be worthless in others.
They expect YOU to understand the design well enough to make that distinction.
(Incidentally, I took a look at the kit instructions for the Mentor power supply.... and they seemed very clear and quite thorough.... and to have an excellent level of detail.)
Ditch the switching and lps....here's Audio Note's version of a high end power supply - no digital hash.... "The magic behind the Mentor The Level 5 power supply is the magic behind the Mentor. It’s our recently developed and highest level power supply specification with over specified Mains, Dual 4 pole chokes & 2 x 5U4G Tube Rectification, 35mm Mundorf Mlytic Power Supply Capacitors and SHUNT regulation. SHUNT regulation provides an additional reservoir of current (30ma) to be running from B+ at all times separate from the standard current draw of the line stage. Thus when music makes quick changes and demands instantaneous current addition, this additional current will come from the SHUNT resistor mounted on the chassis." www.tubecad.com/july99/page12.htmlThis is all Greek to me! Is this what’s integrated into their gear? I’m not too bright today as I haven’t a clue about this. |
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Post by MusicHead on Aug 17, 2018 18:52:21 GMT -5
"can inject noise into other components ..." Just out of curiosity (and/or ignorance), does this manifest as "feedback" or other audible artifacts ? Most modern SMPS (switch-mode power supplies) include input circuitry to provide power-factor correction and filter the input source (e.g. wall socket) from the high-frequency current pulses the SMPS requires. Older or cheaper designs without those features can inject high-frequency noise back into the source, leading to problems in other components. As DYohn said it can manifest in different ways. A really clean switching power supply can be much better than a linear supply; lower noise, better regulation, and the switching frequency is well above the audio band unlike linear supplies. But, if poorly designed they can have higher noise floor, and if it and/or the component in which it is used is poorly shielded, or it couples to other poorly-shielded components, they can suffer the effects of EMI/RFI. That can do anything from raise the noise floor to adding strange tones and buzzes to the output. Like everything else, there are good ones and bad ones out there, linear or SMPS... HTH, IME/IMO, FWIWFM, YMMV, my 0.000001 cent (microcent), etc. - Don Very true. One of my other hobbies is Ham Radio. After many years of using linear power supplies, I decided to give a shot to a switching power supply. Considering the insane sensitivity of radios these days (the one I have for the HF bands is specified at 0.12uV or -125dBm) I was a little apprehensive. However, the SMPS is quiet as a mouse, I cannot detect any "birdies" or "hash" on any band. I am not sure at what frequency it switches, but it is few hundreds kHz at the most. Considering that the frequency coverage of the radio goes from 30kHZ to 75MHz, it is quite an achievement that no harmonics of the switching frequency are audible. As always in engineering, it is all about good design and quality components. |
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Post by novisnick on Aug 30, 2018 22:31:53 GMT -5
klinemj , speaking of your LH Labs Geek Pulse xinfinity, what are you using as a power supply for it? I’ve missed it or don’t recall.
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Post by klinemj on Aug 30, 2018 23:10:04 GMT -5
klinemj , speaking of your LH Labs Geek Pulse xinfinity, what are you using as a power supply for it? I’ve missed it or don’t recall. I have the base on that came with it, but I am about to try another option. Going to try an ifi power linear power supply that's actually a wall wart. Comes reco'd by others who use the Geek as being as good as many high priced options. Mark |
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