DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Aug 16, 2018 19:34:55 GMT -5
Interesting topic. So without hijacking the thread, 80 seems to be the default setting for both mains (towers) and filter. I've tried different settings with mine but it never seems to make any difference. Haven't formally spec'd it with any meters. Thoughts? 80Hz is the THX standard based on the Tomlinson Holman research that human low frequency perception becomes non-directional at 80Hz. Dolby and DTS "LFE" (low frequency effects) is set to 120Hz. When using a crossover, these numbers are as good as any to start with. The xover setting in a system should approximately correspond to the -3db in-room performance of your main loudspeakers, measured at the listening location(s). |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2018 6:52:34 GMT -5
I am amazed at all you dogs who still have their top of the line, or close, full range (FR .... not front right for this post  ) speakers and a sub or two. Before good subs all we had were FR speakers. Most of these FR speakers within a reasonable budget reproduced down to the maybe 35-45Hz, -3dB's at the lowest (as an example of a common range for a FR speaker). Many folks over estimate the low end of their FR speakers due to some exaggeration by many brands even with in room effects. A problem is that the lower the bass frequency, the more strain on the amp. Also the 35-45Hz signal might be only 3dB's below the 1000hz frequency, but it will not be nearly as clean (lack of distortion). Now days we have many reasonably priced excellent subs that are quite flat from 125-150Hz, -3dB and down to the 17-25 Hz area, - 3dB. Just some more common frequency ranges here for rather typical quality FR and subs. So a fact that many don't consider because they don't want to insult their "full range" speaker by introducing a quality sub, is that they therefore don't bring in the sub until the -3dB frequency of the FR. Mistake IMO! The quality sub will reproduce the 80Hz and below signal at lower distortion and louder (with its own dedicated amp) than the FR speaker at 80Hz and below with a straining amp as it gets nearer to 40Hz. There are good reasons I would not run both the FR and the sub at the same frequencies below 80Hz, a detailed discussion for later. BTW, the original purpose for the LFE signals were for very low and loud (plus 10dB's) special effects below 80Hz. There was usually a roll off above 80Hz to a brick wall at 120Hz, period. Now we have some producers using the LFE for higher frequencies it was not intended for. Also LFE signals (the .1 channel in 5.1 surround) were originally mixed with and sent to the same sub as the regular low frequencies. The same high quality sub(s) played both the low bass and LFE signals. So for the best IMO, as Mr Yohn posted above, I would limit the FR to 80Hz and above as the sub takes over at 80Hz and down as per THX. Both the FR and the sub are reproducing the bass frequencies separately that they are both able to do with low distortion driven by their respective amps. IMO the FR is then wasting a lot of low range reproduction which is duplicated and outperformed by high quality sub. I mean high quality sub. I see too many folks think they have to have the top of the line FR speakers and then figure (sometimes almost as an after thought) they need a sub for movies and buy a low to med quality sub to supplement the low bass (and an extra sub for LFE, bad idea). Many current equipment brands tend to label the LFE as a separate animal. A high quality sub will outperform the FR speakers from 80 Hz and down any day. Plus as DYohn mentioned above, generally the bass below 80Hz is non-directional. Many times depending on room space (as in my living room) one sub might be sufficient or two usually excellent. As we know bass can be much changed/improved depending on the location of the low frequency driver(s) in the room. Try moving your FR speakers around in the room if you have low bass below 80Hz problems, usually no way. So if in fact you cross your FR at 40Hz, -3dB you might find that your bass in the 40-80 might be a real problem due to peaks etc. A sub will be much easier to move and smooth out any rough bass below 80Hz. That's why I always recommend limiting the main speakers to a very high quality bookshelf speaker or high quality smaller size floor standing (FR) and spending a larger part of the speaker budget on one or more very high quality subs. Abolish Large Full Range Speakers .......... Make Low Frequency Sound (below 80Hz) Great Again!  |
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Post by RichGuy on Aug 17, 2018 9:02:42 GMT -5
I am amazed at all you dogs who still have their top of the line, or close, full range (FR .... not front right for this post ) speakers and a sub or two. Before good subs all we had were FR speakers. Most of these FR speakers within a reasonable budget reproduced down to the maybe 35-45Hz, -3dB's at the lowest (as an example of a common range for a FR speaker). Many folks over estimate the low end of their FR speakers due to some exaggeration by many brands even with in room effects. A problem is that the lower the bass frequency, the more strain on the amp. Also the 35-45Hz signal might be only 3dB's below the 1000hz frequency, but it will not be nearly as clean (lack of distortion). Now days we have many reasonably priced excellent subs that are quite flat from 125-150Hz, -3dB and down to the 17-25 Hz area, - 3dB. Just some more common frequency ranges here for rather typical quality FR and subs. So a fact that many don't consider because they don't want to insult their "full range" speaker by introducing a quality sub, is that they therefore don't bring in the sub until the -3dB frequency of the FR. Mistake IMO! The quality sub will reproduce the 80Hz and below signal at lower distortion and louder (with its own dedicated amp) than the FR speaker at 80Hz and below with a straining amp as it gets nearer to 40Hz. There are good reasons I would not run both the FR and the sub at the same frequencies below 80Hz, a detailed discussion for later. BTW, the original purpose for the LFE signals were for very low and loud (plus 10dB's) special effects below 80Hz. There was usually a roll off above 80Hz to a brick wall at 120Hz, period. Now we have some producers using the LFE for higher frequencies it was not intended for. Also LFE signals (the .1 channel in 5.1 surround) were originally mixed with and sent to the same sub as the regular low frequencies. The same high quality sub(s) played both the low bass and LFE signals. So for the best IMO, as Mr Yohn posted above, I would limit the FR to 80Hz and above as the sub takes over at 80Hz and down as per THX. Both the FR and the sub are reproducing the bass frequencies separately that they are both able to do with low distortion driven by their respective amps. IMO the FR is then wasting a lot of low range reproduction which is duplicated and outperformed by high quality sub. I mean high quality sub. I see too many folks think they have to have the top of the line FR speakers and then figure (sometimes almost as an after thought) they need a sub for movies and buy a low to med quality sub to supplement the low bass (and an extra sub for LFE, bad idea). Many current equipment brands tend to label the LFE as a separate animal. A high quality sub will outperform the FR speakers from 80 Hz and down any day. Plus as DYohn mentioned above, generally the bass below 80Hz is non-directional. Many times depending on room space (as in my living room) one sub might be sufficient or two usually excellent. As we know bass can be much changed/improved depending on the location of the low frequency driver(s) in the room. Try moving your FR speakers around in the room if you have low bass below 80Hz problems, usually no way. So if in fact you cross your FR at 40Hz, -3dB you might find that your bass in the 40-80 might be a real problem due to peaks etc. A sub will be much easier to move and smooth out any rough bass below 80Hz. That's why I always recommend limiting the main speakers to a very high quality bookshelf speaker or high quality smaller size floor standing (FR) and spending a larger part of the speaker budget on one or more very high quality subs. Abolish Large Full Range Speakers .......... Make Low Frequency Sound (below 80Hz) Great Again! That's Deplorable!  While i agree with most of this and I believe a crossover should almost ALWAYS be used when using a sub rather than running speakers as Large (Full Range) I believe the THX recommended 80Hz is too high for most speakers that have great bass of their own. I feel the crossover setting should be experimented with to find the best mate between speakers and sub and with speakers that have good low end of their own I usually prefer a crossover setting more around 50 - 70 Hz I definitely feel 80 Hz is too high for many speakers. |
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 17, 2018 14:10:33 GMT -5
Get yourself some speakers like mine and all this really won't matter, at least until you want to add a 3rd separate sub.
Actually, my front, center and side surrounds are all rated as large, and are recommended to be set that way by Def Tech.
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 17, 2018 14:14:32 GMT -5
...The xover setting in a system should approximately correspond to the -3db in-room performance of your main loudspeakers, measured at the listening location(s). I strongly disagree with this sentence for the reasons specified in my previous post. And, very importantly, Home Theater ca-ca has polluted this thread! THX etc. have absolutely NO place in any discussion of stereo 2.1 listening. I would agree, though, that for any crossover frequency above 100 Hz. dual subwoofers are a necessity. Without stereo subs, the physical location of a single sub can audibly reveal itself. And this brings up the question: for stereo listening is 2.1 adequate, or must one have 2.2? Without question, the 2.2 system is theoretically better, but how audible would the difference be? |
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Post by MusicHead on Aug 17, 2018 18:33:18 GMT -5
I believe another advantage of delegating entirely to the sub the low end is more positioning freedom for the mains.
With full range speakers the best positioning for good imaging and soundstage may not necessarily be the best one for accurate bass reproduction.
As always YMMV, or... it depends 😁
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Aug 17, 2018 18:43:32 GMT -5
...The xover setting in a system should approximately correspond to the -3db in-room performance of your main loudspeakers, measured at the listening location(s). I strongly disagree with this sentence for the reasons specified in my previous post. And, very importantly, Home Theater ca-ca has polluted this thread! THX etc. have absolutely NO place in any discussion of stereo 2.1 listening. I would agree, though, that for any crossover frequency above 100 Hz. dual subwoofers are a necessity. Without stereo subs, the physical location of a single sub can audibly reveal itself. And this brings up the question: for stereo listening is 2.1 adequate, or must one have 2.2? Without question, the 2.2 system is theoretically better, but how audible would the difference be? To each his own. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2018 19:13:18 GMT -5
...The xover setting in a system should approximately correspond to the -3db in-room performance of your main loudspeakers, measured at the listening location(s). I strongly disagree with this sentence for the reasons specified in my previous post. And, very importantly, Home Theater ca-ca has polluted this thread! THX etc. have absolutely NO place in any discussion of stereo 2.1 listening. I would agree, though, that for any crossover frequency above 100 Hz. dual subwoofers are a necessity. Without stereo subs, the physical location of a single sub can audibly reveal itself. And this brings up the question: for stereo listening is 2.1 adequate, or must one have 2.2? Without question, the 2.2 system is theoretically better, but how audible would the difference be?I strongly disagree with the underlined comments.  Crossing over to a sub at 80Hz makes perfect sense in 2.1 audio as it does in multi-channel surround sound and THX systems for many of the same reasons. Whether to use 2.1 or 2.2 all depends on the specific room environment and how and where the sub(s) are placed. I think many folks with some experimentation and room to move the sub around will many times find a good location for just one sub. EQ settings on the sub or pre might help some. Two high quality subs would usually be better if you have the space and the budget. The THX theory has many of the basics of the sub blending with the main speakers. The crossover should never be above 100Hz as I'm presuming we are talking about two high performance bookshelf or full range speakers (not tiny or cube type small speakers) that are reasonably flat to below 100Hz and usually to 80 Hz or below at -3dB's. Same reasons apply . The high quality sub(s) are superior in low frequency performance below 80Hz to any left and right speaker in a reasonable price range. I'm not taking about mating two high quality speakers with one or two of the ubiquitous $200-$400 subs from Amazon or 7-11 (or even one you find at an estate sale or flea market ...... sorry Boom, I couldn't resist!  ). The same goes for the sub being normally unidirectional below 80Hz, which means in some rooms like mine you can luck out and have great reproduction from one quality sub in the corner. Obviously some rooms need two for smoothest bass spread. Trying to get smooth low bass below the 100Hz/80Hz range we are talking about from the Right and Left speakers can be very difficult because many folks place them where they are practical and not where the bass is best. Many full range speakers in a 2.0 system have dreadful peaks and dips from 80Hz and down. A sophisticated EQ system can help in the 2.0 lower bass, but be very careful of the strain on the two channel or mono amps. The high quality dedicated amp in the powered sub handles the 80Hz and below superbly in most cases, while the left and right amps(s) start to strain and run out of top tier gas when driving the Full Range speakers to the lower frequencies. The single sub can sometimes have trouble in some rooms reproducing the bass consistently/smoothly throughout the room (It does not in my room). If moving it doesn't solve the issue then a second sub helps. This is different than stated above ("without stereo subs, the physical location of a single sub can audibly reveal itself'). Normally that is only true if your sub plays above the 80Hz range. In normal situations, full range left and right, with properly set filters the bass below 80Hz thru one or more subs will not be locatable. The location of the bass reproducing instrument in the music source will however be locatable by the listener due to the higher harmonics coming thru the left and right speakers. Folks will hear the low bass second harmomic 120Hz tone of a fundamental 60Hz tone. If the 120Hz tone is in the right channel of the recording it will be played thru the right speaker. The 1st harmonic of 60Hz will be played thru the sub and at that frequency not be locatable. Consequently some listeners will incorrectly think the sub is directional if it happens to be to the right of the soundstage. However with the same tone, if the sub is actually to the left soundstage the listener will still hear identify that the instrument is from the right due to the 120Hz bass harmonic from the right speaker. That is a main reason some folks think that their high quality sub playing 80Hz and below sounds locatable. Sorry, this got so long. Somewhat longer than DYohn's post just above: To each his own. (Guess I'm a motor mouth!) Please understand I'm talking here about high quality mains matched with a high quality sub(s). This is where many short change their system. Since they have a very nice tower or bookshelf they think, Oh well, I can get any old sub for the movie explosions etc. Today, even top music sources can have some lower bass tones even below 30H. Make Audio and Home Theater Sound Great Again At Deplorable Prices ..... BUY EMOTIVA!PS/BTW/Futhamore: If you want a great sub for a nutty price look at the HSU - model VTF-15H MK2 at $859 (on sale, plus $173 S&H) and 110 lbs. Tested down to 14Hz at -6dB's and 16Hz at -3dB's. 128.9 dB's at 40Hz max output, double ported. Holy Subs! You shake my house and you rattle my brain! Brent Butterworth: VTF-15H MK2 delivers even more bang for ...... the buck of any sub on the market. No full range speaker on this planet even with built-in subs will go any where near this low. PS2, etc: The Emotiva Airmotiv S15 also looks like an excellent sub! |
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Post by leonski on Aug 20, 2018 13:42:19 GMT -5
Running my panels full range WITH the sub resulted in bloated, one-note bass. Even with sub crossover around 45hz. @24db/ oct.
Low cut to the mains ABOVE the High cut to the sub leaving about a 10hz GAP resulted in very musical and extended bass. Without bloat or ringing.
The 'hole in the middle' is OK as long it sums FLAT thru that region. And I use asymmetrical slopes. Low Cut from preamp is 12db and high cut on the sub is 24db.
The arguement for Dual Subs to me revolves around room size and shape. 'Stereo' LF is not an issue. It's the OVERTONES provided by the main speakers which
give depth and 'image' to what you are hearing. Not the LF itself.
Multiple subs in a larger space (volume not SqFt.) can reduce standing wave and suckout / or peak issues.
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 23, 2018 21:26:37 GMT -5
I strongly disagree with the underlined comments. I don't see why you're disagreeing with much of anything, @tllfkacn - I think we agree FAR more than not.. Crossing over to a sub at 80Hz makes perfect sense in 2.1 audio as it does in multi-channel surround sound and THX systems for many of the same reasons. Whether to use 2.1 or 2.2 all depends on the specific room environment and how and where the sub(s) are placed. OK - I'll give you this one! I think many folks with some experimentation and room to move the sub around will many times find a good location for just one sub. No argument here either. EQ settings on the sub or pre might help some. Two high quality subs would usually be better if you have the space and the budget. No argument yet again. I'm not taking about mating two high quality speakers with one or two of the ubiquitous $200-$400 subs from Amazon or 7-11 (or even one you find at an estate sale or flea market ...... sorry Boom, I couldn't resist! Note that my PowerSound Audio S3601 dual-18" sub was the sub of the year last year on the Secrets site, and did NOT come from a yard sale. ...Make Audio and Home Theater Sound Great Again At Deplorable Prices ..... BUY EMOTIVA! Here, we can agree wholeheartedly - Emotiva's subs are AWESOME on an absolute basis and insane values for their price. I'd also have to say that some main speakers (even high-quality ones) blend more gracefully with subs than others. For example, some speakers I've used (Tekton Pendragons, Revel M126Be, Wharfdale Evolution 40) just fought at every opportunity against being blended with a subwoofer UNLESS you used a high-pass filter. Otherwise, the discontinuity between the satellites and subs was not only noticeable, but really in your face. My Thiel CS 1.6 speakers, however don't seem to care - Full range + sub = glorious! High pass + sub = ditto! I've not yet determined what makes the difference. Maybe it's just unique to my room & my subwoofer? Boom |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 2:44:03 GMT -5
Boom, great exchange! We really are pretty much on the same wavelength. Of course I was just teasing with the "yard sales", "I strongly disagree" parrot talk and "you dogs" comment (learned that recently from my good friend Donnie in WA, DC). Think you realize I can't resist throwing in some humor from time to time to keep the troops alert! . I even liked it when RichGuy threw in the "Deplorable!" jab and I repeated it . I'm surprised that monster of a Power Sound sub you have doesn't throw the planet Earth off its normal rotation at times. It weighs almost as much as my ex-wife! I really like Brent Butterworth's reviews and he loved the S3601. It apparently puts out a lot of and very loud and low distortion Boom (pun intended). Damn fine sub Boomzilla!
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Post by jerrin on Aug 24, 2018 7:52:11 GMT -5
If listening to music I usually don't turn on my sub. If watching a movie, I turn it on. I just adjust for volume to blend and that's pretty much it. My speakers work pretty well with the sub.
I've not felt a need for any bass redirection as my side speakers play down to 16Hz in room and my rears around 20Hz.
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 27, 2018 5:58:38 GMT -5
...I really like Brent Butterworth's reviews and he loved the S3601. It apparently puts out a lot of and very loud and low distortion Boom (pun intended). Damn fine sub Boomzilla! The distortion figure is largely an artifact of volume. Since my sub is "loafing" in terms of volume output, the distortion is virtually nil. I think that the best sub I've ever owned has been the Definitive Technology Trinity. It had (if I remember right) three 13" drivers, each with its own passive radiator. It was refrigerator sized, but went lower and cleaner than any other sub I've heard. And of course, DefTech discontinued it, and that was that. The Trinity is one of the very few things I wish I'd never sold.   |
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 27, 2018 12:01:33 GMT -5
...I really like Brent Butterworth's reviews and he loved the S3601. It apparently puts out a lot of and very loud and low distortion Boom (pun intended). Damn fine sub Boomzilla! The distortion figure is largely an artifact of volume. Since my sub is "loafing" in terms of volume output, the distortion is virtually nil. I think that the best sub I've ever owned has been the Definitive Technology Trinity. It had (if I remember right) three 13" drivers, each with its own passive radiator. It was refrigerator sized, but went lower and cleaner than any other sub I've heard. And of course, DefTech discontinued it, and that was that. The Trinity is one of the very few things I wish I'd never sold. They designed that sub for one main purpose, and it had nothing to do with home theater. It was to enable the deep organ tones for a church. Let me see if I can find a link to the article about it. Sucks they discontinued it. Must just not have been a market for it. |
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 27, 2018 12:04:23 GMT -5
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 27, 2018 13:14:07 GMT -5
For people reading this thread, I made another one asking this same sort of question, but with speakers that have powered subs built in, then adding a separate additional sub. Speakers like my 7001s offer up set up and wiring options other regular speakers don't have. They also don't work quite the same, so normal speaker hook up logic doesn't apply the same either. emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/957533/thread |
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Post by jlafrenz on Aug 28, 2018 20:39:44 GMT -5
Since putting a REL into my system (2 channel), my speakers (Focal) are running at full range. I just followed the REL user manual and haven't looked back because I've never had a sub disappear like this. I have used the REL setup too and have been pleased with the results in 2 channel systems. I have used the high level input on non REL subs and also really liked the results. REL has some good setup info. JL on the other hand suggests using a filter and even will go as far as suggesting running pre-outs from your processor into the subwoofer and back out into the amp for your mains. I haven't tried this so I can't give any opinion. They do have several articles on how to integrate a subwoofer and adjust phase on their website under support. I am going to give their setup a try here in the very near future, but this will be in an home theater setup, not 2 channel like I have done the REL setup. |
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) speakers and a sub or two. Before good subs all we had were FR speakers. Most of these FR speakers within a reasonable budget reproduced down to the maybe 35-45Hz, -3dB's at the lowest (as an example of a common range for a FR speaker). Many folks over estimate the low end of their FR speakers due to some exaggeration by many brands even with in room effects. A problem is that the lower the bass frequency, the more strain on the amp. Also the 35-45Hz signal might be only 3dB's below the 1000hz frequency, but it will not be nearly as clean (lack of distortion). Now days we have many reasonably priced excellent subs that are quite flat from 125-150Hz, -3dB and down to the 17-25 Hz area, - 3dB. Just some more common frequency ranges here for rather typical quality FR and subs. So a fact that many don't consider because they don't want to insult their "full range" speaker by introducing a quality sub, is that they therefore don't bring in the sub until the -3dB frequency of the FR. Mistake IMO! The quality sub will reproduce the 80Hz and below signal at lower distortion and louder (with its own dedicated amp) than the FR speaker at 80Hz and below with a straining amp as it gets nearer to 40Hz. There are good reasons I would not run both the FR and the sub at the same frequencies below 80Hz, a detailed discussion for later. 
While i agree with most of this and I believe a crossover should almost ALWAYS be used when using a sub rather than running speakers as Large (Full Range) I believe the THX recommended 80Hz is too high for most speakers that have great bass of their own. I feel the crossover setting should be experimented with to find the best mate between speakers and sub and with speakers that have good low end of their own I usually prefer a crossover setting more around 50 - 70 Hz I definitely feel 80 Hz is too high for many speakers. 
). The same goes for the sub being normally unidirectional below 80Hz, which means in some rooms like mine you can luck out and have great reproduction from one quality sub in the corner. Obviously some rooms need two for smoothest bass spread. Trying to get smooth low bass below the 100Hz/80Hz range we are talking about from the Right and Left speakers can be very difficult because many folks place them where they are practical and not where the bass is best. Many full range speakers in a 2.0 system have dreadful peaks and dips from 80Hz and down. A sophisticated EQ system can help in the 2.0 lower bass, but be very careful of the strain on the two channel or mono amps. The high quality dedicated amp in the powered sub handles the 80Hz and below superbly in most cases, while the left and right amps(s) start to strain and run out of top tier gas when driving the Full Range speakers to the lower frequencies. 
