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Post by tagmanz on Sept 29, 2018 23:52:23 GMT -5
Hi. First time poster although I've been hanging out here quietly for the past 18 months or so following the development of the RMC-1/XMC-2. Before all of the RMC-1 hype stole my attention I was looking for a suitable multiroom audio system. Some of the features I am looking for are: - Low profile (1 or 2U) 19" rack mount chassis - At least 4 zones, expandable to more - 30w/ch or better - Subwoofer pre out for use in outdoor zone - Support for online streaming - Roon ready While there are many choices available from the likes of Russound, Nuvo, Niles, Speakercraft/Elan most are geared towards analog inputs with varying degrees of support for online streaming. Most etiher do not support Roon or at best have limited support through Apple AirPlay. It was with some excitement then when I discovered the NAD CI 580. The obvious amplifier to pair with this for aesthetic reasons would be the NAD CI 980 however, for me at least, these are cost prohibitive. If I end up going the CI 580 route I think I will pair it with an Emotiva A-800. The one thing missing from my list is the subwoofer output. For this the CI 720 fits the bill but at $899 USD, again these are cost prohibitive. So this got me thinking. Could or would Emotiva ever offer a CI 720 like solution? The more I thought about this the more I realised Emotiva already have some 90% of the building blocks in place. Take an XPA-GEN3 chassis, load it with say six 2Ch stereo modules and develop a new control module to fit to the seventh empty slot. The control module would feature: - One or preferably two ethernet ports with internal switch to allow pass through to another chassis for expansion. - Internal crossover and pre out for subwoofer connection - Compatibility for most popular online streaming/internet radio providers - Most importantly Roon ready with RAAT protocol support The really cool trick, and one that I have not seen in any other modular solution would be the ability to replace one of the 2 Ch stereo amplifier modules with the 300W mono module from the XPA range, connect it to the subwoofer pre out on the control module and you have the perfect solution for powering the subwoofer in that outdoor zone. From this photo of the amplifier card here and here it looks as if the analog inputs are on a separate PCB with interconnection to the main amplifier board. It shouldn't be too much of a stretch to reroute the analog input PCB to inputs on new control module and from outputs on the control board back to the amplifiers. That way the RCA/XLR connections on each amplifier card become analog inputs for sharing amoungst all zones. How kick ass would a product like that be for both the custom install market and the home enthusiasts? |
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Post by vcautokid on Sept 30, 2018 10:09:36 GMT -5
Why not write Emotiva audio directly? It may not become a reality, or maybe it might. The forum here is a great way to share ideas amongst your peers here, but if you want your idea really viewed. Go to the source too. I did home integration for a while and the climate is very exciting especially with a the CEDIA news for 2018. Check out videos on YouTube for more. I like what is possible. I am by no means even close to being expert on Roon. I am sure others here may be able to offer some ideas. I hope you the best in your journey.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 30, 2018 11:29:06 GMT -5
I too have been looking for a new Zone amp for some time, I posted requirements here sometime ago. Russound checks most of my boxes without getting too expensive. I’d love if Emotiva made a product like this, but they have a lot on their plate that should keep them busy for some time to come, and a very important part for me would be iOS App control which does not seem to be one of their core competencies. I agree with vcautokid though, you should write it up and send it in, I will have probably bought something in the mean time. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Sept 30, 2018 11:57:15 GMT -5
tagmanzI used to be interested in something like that also but just went with Sonos. Works great. You mention $899 for the CI 720 is cost-prohibitive. What kind of cost are you wanting/needing? From what you describe, it takes ethernet in, has a control system, DAC's to feed 4 channels, and presumably volume control and at least 1 sub out. That sounds like a lot to get for less than $899. Emotiva's BasX A-800 Multizone amp costs $499 and it doesn't have the control system, DAC's, etc. Mark
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Post by petew on Sept 30, 2018 13:24:43 GMT -5
I like your idea of building source modules to live in the XPA-GEN3 chassis. Not knowing the physical size of the modules, could you cram all the crap I've listed below into one module? I guess you'd need an Ethernet jack and 8 RCA outputs (plus 4 for subs) on the back panel. That wouldn't all fit so you'd need a DB-25 connector with a snake to RCA plugs instead.
Another option would be the A-800 with four Raspberry Pi's feeding it with Roon or Volumio as front ends.For subwoofer output, you could use a miniDSP downstream of one of the Pi's.
$500 A-800
$200 four Raspberry Pi's
$100 four hifiberry Dac+ light
$100 miniDSP
$ 60 rack mount 2u chassis
$140 power supply, Ethernet switch and other doodads to tie it all together.
Total about eleven hundred bucks
If you can live with less power, HiFiBerry has a 25 wpc DAC+amplifier for $50. Saves $400 net over using the A-800
It'd be a fun project if I wasn't already a Sonos household.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 30, 2018 13:33:48 GMT -5
tagmanzI used to be interested in something like that also but just went with Sonos. Works great. You mention $899 for the CI 720 is cost-prohibitive. What kind of cost are you wanting/needing? From what you describe, it takes ethernet in, has a control system, DAC's to feed 4 channels, and presumably volume control and at least 1 sub out. That sounds like a lot to get for less than $899. Emotiva's BasX A-800 Multizone amp costs $499 and it doesn't have the control system, DAC's, etc. Mark Good point, just the six stereo modules in the XPA-G3 proposed as the base unit would be over $1800, and the single control module you describe would probably be as expensive all of the amps. An add on ‘control preamp’ for the A-800 probably does make more sense, though I like the idea of the modular chassis approach. I’ve been wanting a Class D version of the XPA G3, with that maybe they could even have a 4 channel blade for uses like this, but the control blade would be a challenge. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Sept 30, 2018 13:59:26 GMT -5
tagmanzI used to be interested in something like that also but just went with Sonos. Works great. You mention $899 for the CI 720 is cost-prohibitive. What kind of cost are you wanting/needing? From what you describe, it takes ethernet in, has a control system, DAC's to feed 4 channels, and presumably volume control and at least 1 sub out. That sounds like a lot to get for less than $899. Emotiva's BasX A-800 Multizone amp costs $499 and it doesn't have the control system, DAC's, etc. Mark Good point, just the six stereo modules in the XPA-G3 proposed as the base unit would be over $1800, and the single control module you describe would probably be as expensive all of the amps. An add on ‘control preamp’ for the A-800 probably does make more sense, though I like the idea of the modular chassis approach. I’ve been wanting a Class D version of the XPA G3, with that maybe they could even have a 4 channel blade for uses like this, but the control blade would be a challenge. The cheapest control system I can think of would be 4 Raspberry Pi's running RoPieee (so 4 times ~$60 for cards + cases), but one would still need DAC's for each zone. Roon would be able to control selection of music and volume for each zone. Then, there's that sub thing the OP want to include...I suppose one could split the signal off the DAC and use a sub's internal controls for level/xover/etc. Mark |
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Post by tagmanz on Sept 30, 2018 14:04:14 GMT -5
tagmanz I used to be interested in something like that also but just went with Sonos. Works great. You mention $899 for the CI 720 is cost-prohibitive. What kind of cost are you wanting/needing? From what you describe, it takes ethernet in, has a control system, DAC's to feed 4 channels, and presumably volume control and at least 1 sub out. That sounds like a lot to get for less than $899. Emotiva's BasX A-800 Multizone amp costs $499 and it doesn't have the control system, DAC's, etc. Mark Sorry I had linked to the NAD products page but it is not immediately obvious. The CI 580 and CI 720 text was underlined in preview. To answer your question a single CI 720 stereo amplifier module with ethernet, analog in and subwoofer pre out is $899. NAD make a separate chassis (RM 720) to hold 6 amp modules. So for a fully load 6 zone system this works out at $5394 plus the cost of the RM 720 chassis. I am sure you will agree an Emotiva based solution looks far more attractive. |
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Post by tagmanz on Sept 30, 2018 14:08:23 GMT -5
Why not write Emotiva audio directly? It may not become a reality, or maybe it might. The forum here is a great way to share ideas amongst your peers here, but if you want your idea really viewed. Go to the source too. I did home integration for a while and the climate is very exciting especially with a the CEDIA news for 2018. Check out videos on YouTube for more. I like what is possible. I am by no means even close to being expert on Roon. I am sure others here may be able to offer some ideas. I hope you the best in your journey. Hi vcautokid, Thanks for your suggestion. I may well email Emotiva. I was simply putting the idea out there as I value the opinion of others here on the forum. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Sept 30, 2018 14:54:43 GMT -5
tagmanz I used to be interested in something like that also but just went with Sonos. Works great. You mention $899 for the CI 720 is cost-prohibitive. What kind of cost are you wanting/needing? From what you describe, it takes ethernet in, has a control system, DAC's to feed 4 channels, and presumably volume control and at least 1 sub out. That sounds like a lot to get for less than $899. Emotiva's BasX A-800 Multizone amp costs $499 and it doesn't have the control system, DAC's, etc. Mark Sorry I had linked to the NAD products page but it is not immediately obvious. The CI 580 and CI 720 text was underlined in preview. To answer your question a single CI 720 stereo amplifier module with ethernet, analog in and subwoofer pre out is $899. NAD make a separate chassis (RM 720) to hold 6 amp modules. So for a fully load 6 zone system this works out at $5394 plus the cost of the RM 720 chassis. I am sure you will agree an Emotiva based solution looks far more attractive. Yeah - that's pricey! That said - the Emotiva BasX A800 amp has the 4 amp zones you need for $499. So, from there, it's just a matter of how you get signal to each zone. You could get 4 Raspberry Pi's and add the RoPieee system on then + whatever DAC's you want and be in business. For cheap DAC's you could build the Pi's with a HiFiBerry DAC. For "around the house" listening, the quality would be fine. Its not what I would choose for critical listening, but it's fine for casual listening. Or, you could pair the Raspberry Pi's with any cheap DAC...google "Cheap USB DAC's" and you will find plenty you could pair with an R-Pi. And, the R-Pi with RoPieee is the cheapest Roon Ready system I know of. Mark |
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Post by leonski on Oct 10, 2018 17:01:26 GMT -5
Parasound makes a 'zonemaster' amp with 6 or 12 channels of amplifier, within your power needs. www.parasound.com/1250.phpMaybe check with Audio Advisor on $$$? Parssound is sometimes discounted....so you may want to cultivate a brick and mortar dealer, too. |
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Post by Loop 7 on Oct 10, 2018 17:30:56 GMT -5
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Post by Gary Cook on Oct 10, 2018 17:58:59 GMT -5
In my daughter's new place I used my no longer required UMC-200 as the processor/pre amp, with 3 zones connected to an XPA-5 Gen 1. Each channels runs a pair of speakers connected in series (4 ohms x 2) ie; 10 speakers at 100 watts each. With a Gen 2 Apple TV as the source. The zones are outdoors inc verandas, bedrooms and family room. Their lounge area runs off the main system. I had the speakers and the UMC-200, the XPA-5 cost $400 used. The UMC-200 is controlled by an IR blaster and iPhones and/or iPads and can play from its internal radio or music on the file server (a MacMini) in the home office.
Recycling old AVR's and processors is an inexpensive way of getting music wherever it's wanted.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 10, 2018 19:21:37 GMT -5
The Parasound amps look nice, but no real modern controls (IP / App based). 🙁
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Post by leonski on Oct 10, 2018 19:56:13 GMT -5
I'd have to see a block diagram of how everthing was intended to be connected. The pre or controller or 'server' should be able to turn on whatever amp channels are needed per zone, with the amp
essentially being passive....
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 10, 2018 20:39:45 GMT -5
I'd have to see a block diagram of how everthing was intended to be connected. The pre or controller or 'server' should be able to turn on whatever amp channels are needed per zone, with the amp essentially being passive.... That’s what’s missing, does Parasound have a controller? Amps are plentiful, but a flexible IP based control system is what’s needed. Edit: Here’s a thread I started two years ago on this, somewhat funny is that it was motivated by the upcoming XMC-1 Atmos upgrade. emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/821530/thread |
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Post by tagmanz on Oct 11, 2018 4:04:56 GMT -5
That’s what’s missing, does Parasound have a controller? Amps are plentiful, but a flexible IP based control system is what’s needed. Precisely. There are amps aplenty but those with IP control and network streaming are not as common and those with Roon support are rarer still. Checkout the NAD CI 580. It's a 4 zone controller with no keypads, controlled entirely from eiher BluOS or Roon apps. Paired with an Emotiva Basx A-800 it's the best solution I've found so far. Parasound are not well represented down under in Middle Earth. |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Oct 11, 2018 7:48:52 GMT -5
Why not a preamp with the IP control?
Once you start making multi channel amps with DACs and IP all you have is a very limited one trick pony integrated amp.
If you ask me this is a bad business model (which is why you don't see this very often or when you do it is very expensive since volume is extremely low)
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 11, 2018 10:27:05 GMT -5
Why not a preamp with the IP control? Once you start making multi channel amps with DACs and IP all you have is a very limited one trick pony integrated amp. If you ask me this is a bad business model (which is why you don't see this very often or when you do it is very expensive since volume is extremely low) That would be fine, and what I referred to as a control unit. It doesn’t need amps but does need multi-zone capabilities, DACs, IP control, Apps, etc. Russound is the most affordable unit I’ve found with the features I want, but they do require a certified installer ‘unlock’ it for setup and when changes are needed. It has amps, but a ‘preamp’ to me implies two channel, and it needs to be much more than that. |
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Post by jlafrenz on Oct 11, 2018 10:30:22 GMT -5
The Parasound amps look nice, but no real modern controls (IP / App based). 🙁 They are just "dumb" amps and designed to be tied into some other pre-amp that could be IP controlled. Parasound isn't big on the modernization of IP, apps or even HDMI. They like the analog world and do a good job there. |
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