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Post by novisnick on Nov 12, 2018 14:59:33 GMT -5
The purpose of the Schiit Eitr is to replace an inferior USB signal, or allow a user to connect a USB source to a DAC that lacks a USB input or to one with an inferior USB input. That's all it's for. I used to use mine between an Ultrarendu and my Kora Hermes since the Kora lacks a USB input. It worked great. Yep, Eitr is to help an inferior implementation of the USB connection. |
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Post by gld3gld3 on Nov 12, 2018 15:14:01 GMT -5
The purpose of the Schiit Eitr is to replace an inferior USB signal, or allow a user to connect a USB source to a DAC that lacks a USB input or to one with an inferior USB input. That's all it's for. I used to use mine between an Ultrarendu and my Kora Hermes since the Kora lacks a USB input. It worked great. Yep, Eitr is to help an inferior implementation of the USB connection. So, to put this in context of the Ultrarendu and other similar devices, the Eitr can fix known problems with bad USB implementations, while the Ultrarendus attempt to not create these USB problems in the first place. Some of the approaches taken to address these USB issues seem to be held in common between all devices being discussed here. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 12, 2018 15:31:25 GMT -5
Just to qualify things here.... At home, I use a Raspberry Pi as my music source... with music stored on a local direct-connected USB hard drive...
It's what I listen to most of the time...
I use Volumio (which is basically an audio-only player)...
I usually listen via an XMC-1 and a pair of Stealth 8 monitors... (At the moment my DC-1 is languishing in the closet).
I have the Pi connected to the XMC-1 via USB... My living room is acoustically "OK but not great"; it has not received extensive acoustic treatments (and could probably benefit from at least some). Also, for the record, I tend to obsess about clarity and transient response... and especially about clarity with female vocals... but not to be especially picky about sound stage or imaging.
I have never listened to any of the Rendu or SotM products (not that I recall).
To be honest, I have never heard anything from my current system that suggests that the Raspberry Pi is failing to deliver the proper bits in the proper order. I have also never heard any symptoms that would suggest the presence of excessive jitter or power supply noise. Since the XMC-1 has both an asynch USB input and an internal ASRC, it's clock is the one used by the data when it is submitted to the DACs inside. (Even if some external upstream device were able to provide a better clock; the XMC-1 would simply be discarding and replacing it anyway... although there is always some potential for interactions.)
I've never tried the Schiit Eitr, but I've tried a few other USB-to-S/PDIF converters (an original V-Link, and one called an Audiophilleo II, which is much higher performing, and much more expensive). I did not notice a significant difference or improvement with either of them and the XMC-1. HOWEVER, I have noticed subtle improvements with one or the other of them with other DACs. (I noticed significant differences with the DC-1, with its ASRC disabled, but not with it enabled - which makes sense.)
As I mentioned, I don't use my Raspberry Pi for streaming. Because of the vagaries of Ethernet, and the complexity of streaming, I can see how another device might possibly perform better or sound better when streaming.
However, I am simply at a loss how any device could do a better job of delivering data to a USB port (and, remember, if the destination device has an asynch-USB input, the clock really doesn't matter). My Raspberry Pi is running from the "stock" $20 wall wart, which is probably not especially quiet, but any noise that might be present doesn't seem to be affecting my XMC-1.
In short, in your position, I would try the Raspberry Pi...
Then I might try the Eitr, and see if it makes any difference (with no major expectations either way). Or even one of those other more expensive devices.
Perhaps, for some reason I haven't thought of, one of those other devices will sound better...
However, to be blunt, I would only try it if I could borrow it, or if I had the option to return it if it didn't make a significant difference.  Also, to be blunt, the Raspberry Pi isn't especially electrically quiet, or especially fast, but I am dubious about how any improvements over it would actually lead to better sound quality under most conditions.
(But it is quite reliable... and simple to use... and physically makes no fan noise and very little heat.)
I would also pay some attention to your NETWORK topology (which people tend to ignore). For example, I might consider using separate switches for audio or video streaming from a local server and for Internet downloads. I've seen people buy goofy expensive Ethernet cables - and other network tweaks - but neglect to do anything at all to optimize their basic network layout.
This is probably not a big deal for audio - but may be significant where video is concerned.
If you have a music server, and clients in three rooms, connect all four of those devices to a single switch. Then, if you have several computers you use to download files or play games, connect all of them to their own switch. (A big file transfer actually can bog things down enough to cause issues for music or video.)
Then, run a single wire from each of those switches to your cable modem. Switches are fast; routers are much slower... Wires are fast; wires slow down a little bit when the distances get long... WiFi is slow; and WiFi gets much slower as you go longer distances, or in bad signal conditions...
(Switches cost $20 or $30 - so you can afford to use more than one.)
That way, music streaming from your music server to your clients doesn't have to share a cable or a switch with the big file you're downloading from the Internet, or your cable TV service, or your phone.
Any small home switch should be fast enough that none of this matters.... however, keeping traffic separate still can minimize "surprise dropouts" and traffic contention. (Cable modems, while having adequate performance, can get a bit bogged down if you ask them to do several different things at once, especially if that includes WiFi.)
I absolutely agree. I would also suggest one thing in the future - when any new equipment is discussed for the first time... A device like the UltraRendu is very different than the Schiit Eitr or the JitterBug... it serves a very different purpose, connects to your system differently, and is supposed to offer different benefits. In future, anyone posting about a new device or option should start out by explaining EXACTLY what it does, where and how you connect it, and what benefit it is supposed to offer. For example: The Schiit Eitr is a USB-to-S/PDIF converter, with galvanic isolation, and internal high quality clocking. It provides a single asynchronous USB input, and a single Coax S/PDIF output - so you MUST use it between a USB audio source and a DAC or processor that has a Coax S/PDIF input. It is especially intended for situations where noise from your computer or digital audio source is leaking into your DAC through the USB connection and degrading its performance, or simply where your DAC has a poor quality USB input (like the old-style non-asynchronous USB inputs found on many older DACs), or no USB input at all.
If your current DAC already has a USB input, and also has a Coax input, the Eitr can be used as an upgrade to the USB input in your DAC. If your current DAC has a Coax input, but no USB input, the Eitr will enable you to add a high quality USB input to it. There is no practical way to connect the Schiit Eitr to a DAC with only a single USB input (like our Ego DACs).
That's reasonable Keith. I think I am to blame for bringing the Schiit Eitr into the conversation. I think my reasoning was justified in that, combined with a Raspberry Pi (+software), the two seem to provide some degree of the same functionality (certainly not all) of a product like the Ultrarendu and others like it . Comparison 1 - Ultrarendu to Rasbperry Pi: -The Ultrarendu is an ethernet in, USB out computer (solely), with upgradeable software (Sonicorbiter) designed specifically for it by Sonore. The Raspberry Pi can be used as an ethernet in, USB out device (in addition to many other things, as it is a multipurpose, open platform computer), on which you can install purpose-built software -to, among many other things, receive music over ethernet and output it via USB. - The Ultrarendu claims to reduce noise from its internal components and from incoming power and also provides high quality clocking. We can reasonably suspect that the Raspberry Pi is not on par with the Ultrarendu in terms of these characteristics. They are certainly not the selling point or one of the main design considerations of the Pi. - There are multiple ways you can power both of these devices. Comparison 2 - Ultrarendu to Eitr: - In contrast to the Ultrarendu, the Eitr is a USB in, coax S/PDIF out device, so it can sit between a computer (like the Raspberry Pi) and your DAC (assuming requisite inputs). - Both of these devices attempt to address noise that can be introduced from the USB connection, the Eitr claiming complete electrostatic and electromagnetic isolation and powering critical low-noise and reclocking sections with its own built-in linear power supply. - Both of these devices reclock the incoming USB data stream using their own high quality clocks to reduce jitter. The above is not an exhaustive comparison. Now, combine Eitr/Raspberry Pi, slap on your software of choice (Ropieee, Dietpi, whatever...), and I think you can begin to see why this solution approaches the Ultrarendus and their ilk in several key functions (again, not claiming apples<->apples). Now, the performance comparisons would be interesting to find out, as subjective as they may be... Thoughts? |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 12, 2018 15:33:54 GMT -5
The short answer is that, while we're still considering things like that, we have no specific plans at the moment that I can share... (Which is a tactful way of saying that we're thinking about it but have no definite specific plans yet either way...)
I absolutely agree. I would also suggest one thing in the future - when any new equipment is discussed for the first time... A device like the UltraRendu is very different than the Schiit Eitr or the JitterBug... it serves a very different purpose, connects to your system differently, and is supposed to offer different benefits. In future, anyone posting about a new device or option should start out by explaining EXACTLY what it does, where and how you connect it, and what benefit it is supposed to offer. For example: The Schiit Eitr is a USB-to-S/PDIF converter, with galvanic isolation, and internal high quality clocking. It provides a single asynchronous USB input, and a single Coax S/PDIF output - so you MUST use it between a USB audio source and a DAC or processor that has a Coax S/PDIF input. It is especially intended for situations where noise from your computer or digital audio source is leaking into your DAC through the USB connection and degrading its performance, or simply where your DAC has a poor quality USB input (like the old-style non-asynchronous USB inputs found on many older DACs), or no USB input at all.
If your current DAC already has a USB input, and also has a Coax input, the Eitr can be used as an upgrade to the USB input in your DAC. If your current DAC has a Coax input, but no USB input, the Eitr will enable you to add a high quality USB input to it. There is no practical way to connect the Schiit Eitr to a DAC with only a single USB input (like our Ego DACs).
Alright,, got it Keith. So, following that protocol you have just described, could you kindly say something about the next Emo Roon endpoint/network player, telling us where it might show up on an Emo component, and exactly what it might do?  Okay, I know this question is begging another one, but I thought I might cheat a little and jump the gun... I hope you do not mind |
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Post by sahmen on Nov 12, 2018 15:41:44 GMT -5
The short answer is that, while we're still considering things like that, we have no specific plans at the moment that I can share... (Which is a tactful way of saying that we're thinking about it but have no definite specific plans yet either way...)
Alright,, got it Keith. So, following that protocol you have just described, could you kindly say something about the next Emo Roon endpoint/network player, telling us where it might show up on an Emo component, and exactly what it might do? Okay, I know this question is begging another one, but I thought I might cheat a little and jump the gun... I hope you do not mind That sounds good enough for me. Thanks. |
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Post by DYohn on Nov 12, 2018 15:45:26 GMT -5
Yep, Eitr is to help an inferior implementation of the USB connection. So, to put this in context of the Ultrarendu and other similar devices, the Eitr can fix known problems with bad USB implementations, while the Ultrarendus attempt to not create these USB problems in the first place. Some of the approaches taken to address these USB issues seem to be held in common between all devices being discussed here. The Ultrarendu is designed to be a quiet, music-specific network player. The Eitr is designed to convert USB to coax digital S/PDIF. Eiter was not designed specifically to "fix" problems with USB, but since it is a very good, electrically quiet USB implementation and contains Schiit's proprietary USB filters it CAN help with poor USB implementations. |
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Post by gld3gld3 on Nov 12, 2018 15:49:28 GMT -5
Just to qualify things here.... At home, I use a Raspberry Pi as my music source... with music stored on a local direct-connected USB hard drive...
It's what I listen to most of the time...
I use Volumio (which is basically an audio-only player)...
I usually listen via an XMC-1 and a pair of Stealth 8 monitors... (At the moment my DC-1 is languishing in the closet).
I have the Pi connected to the XMC-1 via USB... My living room is acoustically "OK but not great"; it has not received extensive acoustic treatments (and could probably benefit from at least some). Also, for the record, I tend to obsess about clarity and transient response... and especially about clarity with female vocals... but not to be especially picky about sound stage or imaging.
I have never listened to any of the Rendu or SotM products (not that I recall).
To be honest, I have never heard anything from my current system that suggests that the Raspberry Pi is failing to deliver the proper bits in the proper order. I have also never heard any symptoms that would suggest the presence of excessive jitter or power supply noise. Since the XMC-1 has both an asynch USB input and an internal ASRC, it's clock is the one used by the data when it is submitted to the DACs inside. (Even if some external upstream device were able to provide a better clock; the XMC-1 would simply be discarding and replacing it anyway... although there is always some potential for interactions.)
I've never tried the Schiit Eitr, but I've tried a few other USB-to-S/PDIF converters (an original V-Link, and one called an Audiophilleo II, which is much higher performing, and much more expensive). I did not notice a significant difference or improvement with either of them and the XMC-1. HOWEVER, I have noticed subtle improvements with one or the other of them with other DACs. (I noticed significant differences with the DC-1, with its ASRC disabled, but not with it enabled - which makes sense.)
As I mentioned, I don't use my Raspberry Pi for streaming. Because of the vagaries of Ethernet, and the complexity of streaming, I can see how another device might possibly perform better or sound better when streaming.
However, I am simply at a loss how any device could do a better job of delivering data to a USB port (and, remember, if the destination device has an asynch-USB input, the clock really doesn't matter). My Raspberry Pi is running from the "stock" $20 wall wart, which is probably not especially quiet, but any noise that might be present doesn't seem to be affecting my XMC-1.
In short, in your position, I would try the Raspberry Pi...
Then I might try the Eitr, and see if it makes any difference (with no major expectations either way). Or even one of those other more expensive devices.
Perhaps, for some reason I haven't thought of, one of those other devices will sound better...
However, to be blunt, I would only try it if I could borrow it, or if I had the option to return it if it didn't make a significant difference. Also, to be blunt, the Raspberry Pi isn't especially electrically quiet, or especially fast, but I am dubious about how any improvements over it would actually lead to better sound quality under most conditions.
(But it is quite reliable... and simple to use... and physically makes no fan noise and very little heat.)
I would also pay some attention to your NETWORK topology (which people tend to ignore). For example, I might consider using separate switches for audio or video streaming from a local server and for Internet downloads. I've seen people buy goofy expensive Ethernet cables - and other network tweaks - but neglect to do anything at all to optimize their basic network layout.
This is probably not a big deal for audio - but may be significant where video is concerned.
If you have a music server, and clients in three rooms, connect all four of those devices to a single switch. Then, if you have several computers you use to download files or play games, connect all of them to their own switch. (A big file transfer actually can bog things down enough to cause issues for music or video.)
Then, run a single wire from each of those switches to your cable modem. Switches are fast; routers are much slower... Wires are fast; wires slow down a little bit when the distances get long... WiFi is slow; and WiFi gets much slower as you go longer distances, or in bad signal conditions...
(Switches cost $20 or $30 - so you can afford to use more than one.)
That way, music streaming from your music server to your clients doesn't have to share a cable or a switch with the big file you're downloading from the Internet, or your cable TV service, or your phone.
Any small home switch should be fast enough that none of this matters.... however, keeping traffic separate still can minimize "surprise dropouts" and traffic contention. (Cable modems, while having adequate performance, can get a bit bogged down if you ask them to do several different things at once, especially if that includes WiFi.)
That's reasonable Keith. I think I am to blame for bringing the Schiit Eitr into the conversation. I think my reasoning was justified in that, combined with a Raspberry Pi (+software), the two seem to provide some degree of the same functionality (certainly not all) of a product like the Ultrarendu and others like it . Comparison 1 - Ultrarendu to Rasbperry Pi: -The Ultrarendu is an ethernet in, USB out computer (solely), with upgradeable software (Sonicorbiter) designed specifically for it by Sonore. The Raspberry Pi can be used as an ethernet in, USB out device (in addition to many other things, as it is a multipurpose, open platform computer), on which you can install purpose-built software -to, among many other things, receive music over ethernet and output it via USB. - The Ultrarendu claims to reduce noise from its internal components and from incoming power and also provides high quality clocking. We can reasonably suspect that the Raspberry Pi is not on par with the Ultrarendu in terms of these characteristics. They are certainly not the selling point or one of the main design considerations of the Pi. - There are multiple ways you can power both of these devices. Comparison 2 - Ultrarendu to Eitr: - In contrast to the Ultrarendu, the Eitr is a USB in, coax S/PDIF out device, so it can sit between a computer (like the Raspberry Pi) and your DAC (assuming requisite inputs). - Both of these devices attempt to address noise that can be introduced from the USB connection, the Eitr claiming complete electrostatic and electromagnetic isolation and powering critical low-noise and reclocking sections with its own built-in linear power supply. - Both of these devices reclock the incoming USB data stream using their own high quality clocks to reduce jitter. The above is not an exhaustive comparison. Now, combine Eitr/Raspberry Pi, slap on your software of choice (Ropieee, Dietpi, whatever...), and I think you can begin to see why this solution approaches the Ultrarendus and their ilk in several key functions (again, not claiming apples<->apples). Now, the performance comparisons would be interesting to find out, as subjective as they may be... Thoughts? Thanks Keith. I already have the system you described (Music Server-->Switch-->ethernet cable-->raspberry pi-->Eitr---DC-1). It all works great. I haven't had any issues with dropouts over several years of playing networked/streamed audio. My involvement in this thread was just to introduce another option/solution (a cheaper one) into the mix, namely the Raspberry Pi and Eitr (if needed) as a Roon endpoint. My system did benefit from including Eitr in the chain. Of course, YMMV. |
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Post by vortecjr on Nov 12, 2018 15:51:37 GMT -5
Some information you might find useful to the recent line of comparisons. The Schitt Audio and Uptone Audio devices came out about the same time. They have USB hub chips, good low noise oscillators, and good low noise regulation all on board. They were meant for use with standard computers. The Rendu series has USB output driven by a similar circuit in that they have USB hub chips, good low noise oscillators and good low noise regulation all on board. When asked I always tell people that the other products are redundant if you are using a Rendu. However, some people still used these things in series...
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Post by vortecjr on Nov 12, 2018 16:02:58 GMT -5
And it would also be nice to offer examples of what specific issue is being addressed.
For example, I've mentioned before that a friend of mine has a Teac NT-503 and he claims that the SOtM sMS-200ultra Neo made a very non-subtle improvement to the sound of his system. From that, I'm guessing that the Teac has a bad USB Input section and needs the Digital Audio Data fed to it in a very particular manner (timing, whatever). (And the fact that Teac makes very suspicious claims about something they call "Bulk Pet USB transfer technology, with four transfer modes to vary sound character" makes me think that they have no clue whatsoever about how to implement USB.)
And, in the above example, we can also thin of the SOtM + Teac as being a single device which just happens to live in two boxes with a cable between them. We could surround this system with a cardboard box with pretty stickers and sparkly paint with an RJ45 Ethernet Cable coming in one side and two Balanced Audio cables exiting the other and call this our "Foo Network DAC". Which makes one wonder why Teac simply didn't do the right job in the first place.
Casey
I'm aware of bulk transfer mode (for example Amanero) and isochronous transfer mode (for example XMOS). I have feedback one way or the other on just about every DAC on the planet and I would not think of them as having issues. There are some better than others.... |
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Post by gld3gld3 on Nov 12, 2018 16:04:09 GMT -5
So, to put this in context of the Ultrarendu and other similar devices, the Eitr can fix known problems with bad USB implementations, while the Ultrarendus attempt to not create these USB problems in the first place. Some of the approaches taken to address these USB issues seem to be held in common between all devices being discussed here. The Ultrarendu is designed to be a quiet, music-specific network player. The Eitr is designed to convert USB to coax digital S/PDIF. Eiter was not designed specifically to "fix" problems with USB, but since it is a very good, electrically quiet USB implementation and contains Schiit's proprietary USB filters it CAN help with poor USB implementations. I understand what the Ultrarendu is. I understand that one of the things the Eitr does is convert USB to coax S/PDIF. How can you say that Schiit didn't also design it to deal with the problems presented by bad USB implementations? Until recently Mike Moffat was schiiting all over USB and I think they designed the Eitr to deal with those problems, as well as to provide a Coax S/PDIF for those that either did not have USB inputs on their DACs, or had both USB and Coax S/PDIF and wanted to use the latter. Expanding this topic somewhat, Schiit is also going to be rolling out a new USB implementation, that according to Mike and Jason, sounds better then their current Gen 5 USB boards and Coax S/PDIF. Interesting times! |
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Post by novisnick on Nov 12, 2018 16:20:17 GMT -5
Yep, Eitr is to help an inferior implementation of the USB connection. So, to put this in context of the Ultrarendu and other similar devices, the Eitr can fix known problems with bad USB implementations, while the Ultrarendus attempt to not create these USB problems in the first place. Some of the approaches taken to address these USB issues seem to be held in common between all devices being discussed here. “Fix” is a srtong word. I’d say that the Eitr filters out audible noise but not the underlying problem. |
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Post by DYohn on Nov 12, 2018 16:21:13 GMT -5
The Ultrarendu is designed to be a quiet, music-specific network player. The Eitr is designed to convert USB to coax digital S/PDIF. Eiter was not designed specifically to "fix" problems with USB, but since it is a very good, electrically quiet USB implementation and contains Schiit's proprietary USB filters it CAN help with poor USB implementations. I understand what the Ultrarendu is. I understand that one of the things the Eitr does is convert USB to coax S/PDIF. How can you say that Schiit didn't also design it to deal with the problems presented by bad USB implementations? Until recently Mike Moffat was schiiting all over USB and I think they designed the Eitr to deal with those problems, as well as to provide a Coax S/PDIF for those that either did not have USB inputs on their DACs, or had both USB and Coax S/PDIF and wanted to use the latter. Expanding this topic somewhat, Schiit is also going to be rolling out a new USB implementation, that according to Mike and Jason, sounds better then their current Gen 5 USB boards and Coax S/PDIF. Interesting times! Mike Moffat designed his USB Gen 5 implementation (and his new proprietary USB receiver) to combat bad USB crappola. Eitr uses their Gen 5 filters. But Eiter was designed to convert USB to S/PDIF for those DACs lacking a USB input, or for non-Schiit DACs lacking Gen 5. |
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Post by gld3gld3 on Nov 12, 2018 16:33:34 GMT -5
So, to put this in context of the Ultrarendu and other similar devices, the Eitr can fix known problems with bad USB implementations, while the Ultrarendus attempt to not create these USB problems in the first place. Some of the approaches taken to address these USB issues seem to be held in common between all devices being discussed here. “Fix” is a srtong word. I’d say that the Eitr filters out audible noise but not the underlying problem. Okay, sorry. I don't think we're in disagreement then. Perhaps it doesn't "fix" USB itself, but it certainly addresses some of the undesired effects of poor USB implementations. |
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Post by gld3gld3 on Nov 12, 2018 16:35:04 GMT -5
I understand what the Ultrarendu is. I understand that one of the things the Eitr does is convert USB to coax S/PDIF. How can you say that Schiit didn't also design it to deal with the problems presented by bad USB implementations? Until recently Mike Moffat was schiiting all over USB and I think they designed the Eitr to deal with those problems, as well as to provide a Coax S/PDIF for those that either did not have USB inputs on their DACs, or had both USB and Coax S/PDIF and wanted to use the latter. Expanding this topic somewhat, Schiit is also going to be rolling out a new USB implementation, that according to Mike and Jason, sounds better then their current Gen 5 USB boards and Coax S/PDIF. Interesting times! Mike Moffat designed his USB Gen 5 implementation (and his new proprietary USB receiver) to combat bad USB crappola. Eitr uses their Gen 5 filters. But Eiter was designed to convert USB to S/PDIF for those DACs lacking a USB input, or for non-Schiit DACs lacking Gen 5. Great! So we're in agreement |
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Post by KeithL on Nov 12, 2018 16:39:12 GMT -5
That's kind of a fair summary... except for one thing.
The USB interface itself is packet-based, so it inherently has a lot of jitter. It's up to the USB input circuitry on the receiving device to be immune to it. In other words, you can never "design a perfect USB source", because some of the issues involved are INHERENT in the USB interface.
The Eitr upgrades the input circuitry on the receiving device. Therefore, it has the opportunity to improve the input quality, by making it more immune to noise and jitter. This should allow the DAC to work very well with even less than perfect quality input signals.
However, as I understand things, the UltraRendus are all sources, which places limitations on what they can even theoretically do. The source can do a lot to minimize noise, which can certainly help, especially if the receiving device is somewhat noise sensitive.
However, because USB is a packet-based interface, no matter how good your source is, it simply cannot eliminate all jitter. At best, it can make the receiver's job a little bit easier by minimizing the jitter as much as it can. (No matter how good your source is, a bad USB input on the DAC can still mung things up.)
From an engineering perspective, it seems easier, and more likely to succeed, to address these issues from the receiving end.
However, I should note that the UltraRendu is a streaming device, and so it replaces A COMPUTER. Therefore, things like not having a fan, and simply being compact in size, and not requiring a keyboard and monitor, count in its favor.
The Eitr is a separate device, which you put between a source and a DAC you already have. The UltraRendu is a source device, and needs to be considered as such. (You're buying the Rendu INSTEAD of a computer and not IN ADDITION to it - and this would alter the value proposition considerably.)
(Of course, not all computers are big and expensive.... ie the Raspberry Pi is about $50...)
Yep, Eitr is to help an inferior implementation of the USB connection. So, to put this in context of the Ultrarendu and other similar devices, the Eitr can fix known problems with bad USB implementations, while the Ultrarendus attempt to not create these USB problems in the first place. Some of the approaches taken to address these USB issues seem to be held in common between all devices being discussed here. |
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Post by KeithL on Nov 12, 2018 17:05:17 GMT -5
I think it's just a matter of semantics.....
People like to overgeneralize.... and this is where it can get confusing.
For example, jitter can be a problem at certain places in the signal chain; however, in others, it is totally harmless, or even irrelevant.
For another example, 0.1V of analog noise on your Ethernet cable, or on a USB data line, is TOTALLY HARMLESS; it only becomes a problem if it finds its way into the analog circuitry. (And you can prevent it from becoming a problem by eliminating it to begin with - or by simply by keeping the proverbial door shut - or by removing it after it sneaks in... although one of those options may be the easiest.)
A "perfectly performing" asynchronous USB input would be able to deliver a perfect audio signal, and a perfect clock, so there would be no room for improvement. What the Eitr does is to replace the current USB input on your device with a new one - which is, we hope, able to perform more perfectly.
So, to put this in context of the Ultrarendu and other similar devices, the Eitr can fix known problems with bad USB implementations, while the Ultrarendus attempt to not create these USB problems in the first place. Some of the approaches taken to address these USB issues seem to be held in common between all devices being discussed here. “Fix” is a srtong word. I’d say that the Eitr filters out audible noise but not the underlying problem. |
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Post by KeithL on Nov 12, 2018 17:06:12 GMT -5
That is a perfect way to describe it. “Fix” is a srtong word. I’d say that the Eitr filters out audible noise but not the underlying problem. Okay, sorry. I don't think we're in disagreement then. Perhaps it doesn't "fix" USB itself, but it certainly addresses some of the undesired effects of poor USB implementations. |
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Post by gld3gld3 on Nov 12, 2018 17:41:50 GMT -5
I think it's just a matter of semantics.....
People like to overgeneralize.... and this is where it can get confusing.
For example, jitter can be a problem at certain places in the signal chain; however, in others, it is totally harmless, or even irrelevant.
For another example, 0.1V of analog noise on your Ethernet cable, or on a USB data line, is TOTALLY HARMLESS; it only becomes a problem if it finds its way into the analog circuitry. (And you can prevent it from becoming a problem by eliminating it to begin with - or by simply by keeping the proverbial door shut - or by removing it after it sneaks in... although one of those options may be the easiest.)
A "perfectly performing" asynchronous USB input would be able to deliver a perfect audio signal, and a perfect clock, so there would be no room for improvement. What the Eitr does is to replace the current USB input on your device with a new one - which is, we hope, able to perform more perfectly.
“Fix” is a srtong word. I’d say that the Eitr filters out audible noise but not the underlying problem. Yes, I believe it was about semantics. I was being a bit lazy I guess. I could have been clearer and avoided some of the resulting posts! |
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Post by foggy1956 on Nov 12, 2018 18:54:38 GMT -5
I think it's just a matter of semantics.....
People like to overgeneralize.... and this is where it can get confusing.
For example, jitter can be a problem at certain places in the signal chain; however, in others, it is totally harmless, or even irrelevant.
For another example, 0.1V of analog noise on your Ethernet cable, or on a USB data line, is TOTALLY HARMLESS; it only becomes a problem if it finds its way into the analog circuitry. (And you can prevent it from becoming a problem by eliminating it to begin with - or by simply by keeping the proverbial door shut - or by removing it after it sneaks in... although one of those options may be the easiest.)
A "perfectly performing" asynchronous USB input would be able to deliver a perfect audio signal, and a perfect clock, so there would be no room for improvement. What the Eitr does is to replace the current USB input on your device with a new one - which is, we hope, able to perform more perfectly.
“Fix” is a srtong word. I’d say that the Eitr filters out audible noise but not the underlying problem. Can you define, more perfectly, please?☺ |
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Post by rbk123 on Nov 12, 2018 19:39:59 GMT -5
boomzilla when will you learn to STFU? Somehow your insistence on being right turns every one of your threads into a 200 page epic and you never listen to anyone. Plus, it is a violation of forum rules to run down other company's products. You know nothing about this topic yet you continue to talk out of your ass like you are some sort of expert. Please stop. Doh - I'm going to have to nominate this for the most hypocritical post of the year category. How many forum rules are being broken concerning courtesy, respect, insults and profanity? Methinks ol' DY needs a timeout to get his blood pressure down and reread the rules he apparently wants to selectively enforce. emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/10157/forum-etiquette-readThe irony of "insisting being right" was not lost on me when seeing DY quote/repost himself within 3 hours. Gold, Jerry. Gold. |
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