klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 3, 2018 18:29:13 GMT -5
Did I happen to say..."just try one"?
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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 3, 2018 18:50:03 GMT -5
I think that given my current system with an old Logitech Squeeze Touch operating as a Roon Bridge into my old DMC-1 via Optical S/PDIF (because the DMC-1 doesn't even have a USB input), that this would be mostly a waste. I suppose I could invest in some kind of fancier USB to Optical S/PDIF device ( KeithL mentioned the Audiophilleo II in one of his posts) which I could then use in conjunction with something like the SOtM MS-200ultra Neo, but then I'd be spending almost $2,000 attempting to experiment with retrofitting better sound for my old DMC-1. I'd rather spend that money on an RMC-1 (or XMC-2, or RMC-1L).
Casey
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Post by brubacca on Dec 3, 2018 18:53:47 GMT -5
I think that given my current system with an old Logitech Squeeze Touch operating as a Roon Bridge into my old DMC-1 via Optical S/PDIF (because the DMC-1 doesn't even have a USB input), that this would be mostly a waste. I suppose I could invest in some kind of fancier USB to Optical S/PDIF device ( KeithL mentioned the Audiophilleo II in one of his posts) which I could then use in conjunction with something like the SOtM MS-200ultra Neo, but then I'd be spending almost $2,000 attempting to experiment with retrofitting better sound for my old DMC-1. I'd rather spend that money on an RMC-1 (or XMC-2, or RMC-1L). Casey
Get your RMC-1... Then try one. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 3, 2018 18:55:22 GMT -5
The problem with your statement is that it is not truly correct. They are NOT decoding the bits. They are simply taking data in one digital format (Ethernet packets) and converting it to another digital format (asynchronous USB). Both of those are simply digital data formats. They claim to not be altering the actual data (which is good). The conversion to analog takes place in the DAC. Therefore, at most, they are claiming to do something that affects extraneous conditions in such a way that they enable your DAC to to its job better.
The only real possibilities there are for them to eliminate things that are causing your DAC to function less than optimally. (And one would expect those things to be very different with different DACs.... and to affect them to very different degrees.... there is no "universal flaw" for them to be fixing.)
I don't work for them but they claim there is no "altering the bits." It's just they have purpose-built a super-quiet audio platform for decoding them. Again, do yourself a favor and stop trying to second guess 'why." Buy one and experience it yourself. Tear it apart if you desire. Have fun. Keith, that's where you are wrong. These devices and others like them are NOT simply digital data transport mechanisms. They are computers running software that receive the data streams from a server and decode them. They run applications like Roon Ready ot Squeezesoft or Sonos and by doing so they manipulate the data as those packages dictate. They are not "ethernet to USB converters," a discussion I had on this forum many times before. It's client-server software running on a micro-computer. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 3, 2018 19:00:11 GMT -5
I think that given my current system with an old Logitech Squeeze Touch operating as a Roon Bridge into my old DMC-1 via Optical S/PDIF (because the DMC-1 doesn't even have a USB input), that this would be mostly a waste. I suppose I could invest in some kind of fancier USB to Optical S/PDIF device ( KeithL mentioned the Audiophilleo II in one of his posts) which I could then use in conjunction with something like the SOtM MS-200ultra Neo, but then I'd be spending almost $2,000 attempting to experiment with retrofitting better sound for my old DMC-1. I'd rather spend that money on an RMC-1 (or XMC-2, or RMC-1L). Casey
Get your RMC-1... Then try one. I'll 2nd that! |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 3, 2018 19:03:10 GMT -5
Get your RMC-1... Then try one. May. Must hold out till May ... (And I'm also waiting for all of you early adopters to shake out the inevitable launch issues.) Casey |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 3, 2018 20:19:10 GMT -5
Get your RMC-1... Then try one. May. Must hold out till May ... (And I'm also waiting for all of you early adopters to shake out the inevitable launch issues.) Casey OK. Until then - suspend belief on these devices. And, just try one then. |
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Post by simpleman68 on Dec 3, 2018 21:34:10 GMT -5
May. Must hold out till May ... (And I'm also waiting for all of you early adopters to shake out the inevitable launch issues.) Casey OK. Until then - suspend belief on these devices. And, just try one then. Mark, the new pusher in town.  Scott
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Post by wilburthegoose on Dec 4, 2018 8:09:44 GMT -5
I too was a doubter. There's no way this thing could do what people claim.
So I tried one with every intent of sending it back.
It's not going back. It's a significant improvement over all my old endpoints: Windows 10 PC via USB, Oppo UDP-203, Chromecast Ultra, Raspberry Pi with HiFiBerry Digi + Pro HAT.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 4, 2018 9:46:45 GMT -5
If anyone else would like to try this "phenomenon," I'll be happy to sell you my Microrendu. It isn't that I don't like it, only that I want to try the upgrade model! LOL
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 4, 2018 14:38:06 GMT -5
At the risk of sounding mysterious..... that's true in one context and not in another.
At one level, and from one perspective, you're exactly right. It is a computer loaded with an operating system and a bunch of client software. And that does indeed give it an opportunity to provide me with a nice - or not so nice - user experience.
However, at another level, assuming I am starting with a particular digital audio file.... What they're supposed to be doing is getting the data from that file to my DAC - with every bit exactly as it was in the original. (And that is pretty much the definition of a DATA TRANSPORT.)
From what I understand, for example, the Roon software is quite able to deliver my digital audio with bit-perfect accuracy. And, while running Roon on a different device, or a different program entirely, might involve different buttons, lights, and menu selections.... Any two devices which I ask to do that, and are able to do it correctly, will deliver exactly the same bits to my DAC.
In fact, I would take that a step further, I DO NOT specifically look at it as "an Ethernet to USB converter". I also don't specifically look at it as a Roon device.
I look at THE ENTIRE SIGNAL CHAIN as a digital audio delivery system. And, you're quite right, its purpose is not "to get Ethernet-based USB audio to my DAC".... It's purpose is to get A FILE CONTAINING DIGITAL AUDIO DATA to my DAC.
Assuming it works perfectly, and delivers the bits in my file to my DAC, I really don't care if it uses Ethernet, WiFi, Token Ring, or the proverbial Dixie cup and a string....
It's all one big black box; files go in one end and bits come out the other.
I'm perfectly happy with Ethernet, because it's convenient and capable of doing the job at reasonable cost, but it is simply part of the deal. (But, if my DAC actually could connect directly to a hard drive with my files on it, or actually had a hard drive of its own, I wouldn't be messing with any of this junk.)
As far as I'm concerned, since Roon is in fact SOFTWARE, it should do exactly the same thing regardless of what computer I run it on. Regardless of how complex what it's doing actually is the end result is transporting those bits from the file to the USB output.
However, if that's the case, then there's no possible reason why two different computers, running the same program, and delivering the same output, should sound different. Therefore, if we've ruled out the possibility of tampering with the data, then all we're left with is some sort of hardware interaction between the computer and the DAC.
And, while there are several different possibilities there, a few of which are slightly difficult to measure, none of them is especially mysterious or worth keeping a secret.
There are only two possibilities here (if we take as a given that the bits aren't being altered): 1) What comes out of a Rendu is exactly the same as what comes out of my Dell desktop Windows computer - in which case you're all hallucinating if you think you hear a difference. 2) What comes out of the Rendu is different - in which case it should be quite possible to measure, quantify, and specify what's different. (Since we're accepting as a given that the bits are the same there are a limited number of other things which can account for the difference.)
The problem with your statement is that it is not truly correct. They are NOT decoding the bits. They are simply taking data in one digital format (Ethernet packets) and converting it to another digital format (asynchronous USB). Both of those are simply digital data formats. They claim to not be altering the actual data (which is good). The conversion to analog takes place in the DAC. Therefore, at most, they are claiming to do something that affects extraneous conditions in such a way that they enable your DAC to to its job better.
The only real possibilities there are for them to eliminate things that are causing your DAC to function less than optimally. (And one would expect those things to be very different with different DACs.... and to affect them to very different degrees.... there is no "universal flaw" for them to be fixing.)
Keith, that's where you are wrong. These devices and others like them are NOT simply digital data transport mechanisms. They are computers running software that receive the data streams from a server and decode them. They run applications like Roon Ready ot Squeezesoft or Sonos and by doing so they manipulate the data as those packages dictate. They are not "ethernet to USB converters," a discussion I had on this forum many times before. It's client-server software running on a micro-computer. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 4, 2018 15:17:54 GMT -5
This is really tiresome. Get one and *bleep*ing test it yourself!
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 4, 2018 15:19:17 GMT -5
At the risk of sounding mysterious..... that's true in one context and not in another. Keith - if you spent as much time listening to one of these devices as you did typing to tell us the same thing over and over again but with different words, you might at least realize why many of adamantly advocate others to try them. "just. try. one" Then Go Lobby Dan And Lonnie To Make An Option That Competes But Has Typical Emotiva Value. Mark |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 4, 2018 15:46:59 GMT -5
KeithL - Your "option two" is DEFINITELY the case (What comes out of the Rendu IS different). But nobody (yet) has been able to "measure, quantify, and specify what's different." Since we're unable to measure, we'd be most gratified if Emotiva would take up the challenge for us. If Emotiva finds audible value in whatever these things are doing (and I predict that you WILL), then consider (as Mr. klinemj so humorously, and repeatedly, suggests) offering an Emotiva device that we'd all probably buy. As of now, this nascent market is owned by two small companies who invite skepticism and claims of snake-oil by their inability (or unwillingness) to defend their products' performance and function. Yet the success of their products is growing (despite the companies inept marketing) through word of mouth. This is an "emerging market" ripe with potential profits. I know that Emotiva has contemplated the introduction of a streamer in the past - might this not be a most excellent time to restart that project? Cordially - Boomzilla PS - If Emotiva doesn't want to invest the pittance to buy one of these and test it, I'd be happy to LOAN you guys mine. I'll even pay the shipping! There - No more excuses!
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 4, 2018 16:00:50 GMT -5
(my next suggestion to try one shall be written in the form of a haiku...I must get working on that...)
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 4, 2018 16:06:48 GMT -5
To be quite candid.... at this point I don't know the current status of a streamer as a product.
There is certainly some interest in high-end streaming players and similar products. However, from what we've seen, most of the market is satisfied with products like the Roku, or Sonos, or the Apple TV.
While, like MQA, there is certainly a small amount of strong interest, we're not sure there is volume of interest to justify the development and manufacturing costs.
Actually developing a streamer from scratch is quite a complex and expensive task - which is one reason why devices like the Rendu have remained relatively expensive. (The reason we abandoned the project several years ago was simply that we didn't believe we could sell enough of them at a profit to make it a viable product.)
As you know, we have discussed, and are still considering a streaming plugin for the RMC-1, although I have no definite idea of the direction in which that will go yet.
I thank you for your offer, and will certainly keep it in mind. (At the moment we're still working feverishly on the RMC-1, the RMC-2, and the XMC-2.)
KeithL - Your "option two" is DEFINITELY the case (What comes out of the Rendu IS different). But nobody (yet) has been able to "measure, quantify, and specify what's different." Since we're unable to measure, we'd be most gratified if Emotiva would take up the challenge for us. If Emotiva finds audible value in whatever these things are doing (and I predict that you WILL), then consider (as Mr. klinemj so humorously, and repeatedly, suggests) offering an Emotiva device that we'd all probably buy. As of now, this nascent market is owned by two small companies who invite skepticism and claims of snake-oil by their inability (or unwillingness) to defend their products' performance and function. Yet the success of their products is growing (despite the companies inept marketing) through word of mouth. This is an "emerging market" ripe with potential profits. I know that Emotiva has contemplated the introduction of a streamer in the past - might this not be a most excellent time to restart that project? Cordially - Boomzilla PS - If Emotiva doesn't want to invest the pittance to buy one of these and test it, I'd be happy to LOAN you guys mine. I'll even pay the shipping! There - No more excuses! |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 4, 2018 16:21:03 GMT -5
"RMC-2"? Oh! You mean the "RMC-1L" ... :-)
Casey
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 4, 2018 16:21:55 GMT -5
To be quite candid.... at this point I don't know the current status of a streamer as a product. There is certainly some interest in high-end streaming players and similar products. However, from what we've seen, most of the market is satisfied with products like the Roku, or Sonos, or the Apple TV.... You may be right, Keith - I've got no feel for how large the potential market may be. But let me drop the following factoids: 1. The market for physical-media music distribution is drying up. This is why Oppo chose to close their doors. 2. "Streaming is the fastest growing segment of music consumption. Goldman Sachs expects the recorded music streaming market to be worth around $37bn by 2030" (source = Music Industry Insights3. Demographics point to two potential strong target markets - Baby boomers who now have enough disposable income to purchase luxury goods and newer generations who are reaching the height of their earning years over the coming decade. You may be right that at this moment, the demand for such an Emotiva device would be low, but one would expect the demand to grow rapidly and be sustained as the continued shift to streaming accelerates. Just food for thought... Cordially - Boomzilla |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 4, 2018 16:43:47 GMT -5
Keith your tired argument is as valid as someone like me saying that there is no way the RMC-1 is worth the cost because I have an Anthem AVM-60 and bits are bits and DACS are DACs and Dolby is Dolby and HDMI is HDMI and the Anthem is reviewed as great sounding and is about half the cost of the RMC-1 so that makes the new Emotiva just an overpriced digital to multi channel analog converter. Which is to say it's not valid at all since I have not heard the RMC-1.
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Post by brubacca on Dec 4, 2018 17:03:31 GMT -5
We are wasting our breath here. Emotiva hasn't truly cared about our opinion in years.
I'm done trying to help them see the light here.
These small devices are great products. Emotiva wants to focus on the nightmare that is HT Processors then good luck to them.
I enjoy my tube amp and mR/schiit setup.
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