KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 29, 2018 10:32:21 GMT -5
You might also try doing an actual file compare to see if the bits are really the same..... (It's pretty easy to do a bit-compare between two files.)
And, if you want to be really scientific, then make a few copies, and rename the files.... so people can't tell which version they're playing until they consult the key list that says which is which. I might also suggest a fresh format on the stick first (just to rule out the possibility that some files are more fragmented than others.)
It would be very surprising if files that have been confirmed to be the same by a bit compare sound different when played off the same stick by the same player.
If there really is a difference, I suspect that his "modified Teac pro device" is NOT simply reading the data from the CD disk and writing it out without altering it. (A lot of ripping software, including dBPowerAmp, which is my favorite, actually compare their results against a published checksum to confirm that they're exact and correct.)
And, if his "ripping rig" is also making alterations to the data, then he is not "just ripping the discs"; he is ripping them and then applying some sort of euphonic post-processing to them.
And, if anyone really believes that "demagnetizing a CD" does anything at all.... I know an out-of-work Voudon priest who would love to earn some extra income blessing cables and discs.
Incidentally, if anyone wants to explore the possibility of actually modifying their music to make it sound better.....
I would remind you that there is a whole world of audio editing software out there..... For example, if you ever thought a dBx expander improved some tracks, you should check out the "Dynamics Processor" in Izotope Ozone.
(It does expansion and compression, with multiple bands, and fully adjustable everything.)
For anyone who is interested, there are free options that do similar things (if you look around). However, I personally find Adobe Audition and Izotope Ozone to be really handy, and well worth their respective prices.
(You can get a free trial of Izotope Ozone..... and a free trial Adobe Audition to plug it into). Izotope also has an Exciter plugin, which adds harmonics (to simulate tube sound), and plugins to adjust the sound stage and tonal balance. Their Equalizer plugin is also remarkably cool - and quite intuitive to use.
(The last time I looked they were offering separate plugins for adjusting imaging, making it both wider or narrower, and for adding "vinyl grunge", totally free - as promotions.)
There are, literally, thousands of other options for deliberately altering sound.
OK - klinemj - DYohn - wilburthegoose - novisnick - etc. The Microrendu experience brings me back to my audio amigo, Russel. He has consistently claimed that his CD rips sound better - not only better than mine, but also better than almost everyone else's. His HDD system resides in a specific outboard USB / SATA adapter, supported from vibration by tiptoes, meticulously leveled, using specific Enterprise-certified hard drives, utilizing specific USB cables, and with a custom power supply to the drive. He uses a modified "pro" Teac device as his ripper, and every "other" aspect of the rip process is tweaked. And yes, he "demagnetizes" his CDs before ripping. It sounds good enough that at least two manufacturers have borrowed the entire playback system from him to use at audio shows. I'm going to contact Russel and have him do a rip for me to a USB key (his other rip destination of choice). I'll rip the same music to the same USB key. Once done, I'll mail that USB drive to those of you who want to hear it, and you can judge for yourself. What music should I request? I foresee the USB key circulating like a Trobrian-Island pebble... Once you've heard it, mail it on to the next person on the waiting list. Boomzilla |
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Post by Percussionista on Nov 29, 2018 10:45:16 GMT -5
Well, something's lost but something's gained. I suspect that the output buffers on the DC-1 are getting dragged down by the parallel impedances of the BasX A300 power amp and the PowerSound Audio Subs (two - one for each channel). Much of the dynamics are gone, and the sound is more "sterile." Now this is just a speculation, so let's ignore that and talk about the sound. This struck a nerve for me - I've been wondering why my new (since this summer) Emo Airmotiv S12 sub seemed tame. I have it and a pair of Stealth-6's connected directly to a DC-1 in a small room (my office, 11x13). Originally I had an S12 right after it was released, for about 3 weeks, and sent it back in to fix the hum problem. That was when we were still in CA and the sub was on the 2nd floor of our house, and it was killer! Of course, that was probably because of it using the whole floor as a vibrating unit ;-) Now we are in a new single story house in TX, on the concrete foundation (wood floors), and the S12 is very tame. It's in a corner and I've had to up the controls on the back to make much of a difference. I'm not even sure it's worth it in here! As some people are speculating, do you think putting a preamp into the path will make a significant difference? BTW, in the theater room, about 11x17, my SVS PC-12+ was "too" powerful as initially set the way I had it back in CA, and had to decrease it's output and also engage it's room gain controls to stop shaking the house ;-) In CA, the PC-12+ was also on the ground floor, but in a larger room. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 29, 2018 10:56:15 GMT -5
Things like jitter and noise are real.... although I believe they are much less often an issue that some folks insist on claiming. Therefore, I don't necessarily disbelieve that there may be something different there, but I have very distinct doubts about what it is. For example, files, sitting on a disc, DO NOT AND CANNOT HAVE JITTER (because jitter is a function of timing - which is simply not applicable to a file). However, it would be possible for jitter somewhere in the signal chain to cause a bit-error in a file you're transferring. (But proper network protocols should prevent this; and you can test for whether it has happened or not.)
Likewise, two files sitting on a disc, both containing the same bits, are and must be identical (unless you believe in magic there is no room for discussion there). However, if one file is more heavily fragmented than the other, that might possibly cause it to sound different when you play it, because it affects the timing in the player. But, if so, THE FILE IS NOT DIFFERENT; the fragmentation is affecting how the computer plays it back. And you would eliminate that difference by carefully defragmenting the disc (that would be the proper solution to that issue). As another example, both a WAV file and a FLAC file contain the same bits, so, in and of itself, their audio content CANNOT be different. HOWEVER, it's quite possible that your particular player device or program may cause them to sound different when it plays them. Decoding FLAC takes more processing power, which may cause your computer to work harder, and so may affect its performance in other areas...
(By making the processor work harder, and so increasing the power it consumes, it may cause the power supply in your computer to produce more noise.) What you must remember is that, since the difference is not in the file, but in how the player handles it, that difference is specific to that particular combination. (Since the difference is really in the player and not the file - don't assume that you'll hear the same difference on a different player.)
To make a really unpleasant analogy.... If a buddy hands me a glass of beer... and it tastes really good... I'd still like to know if it tastes different because he's using a really unique new species of hops... or if it's because his dog peed in the keg. Before you laugh too hard, read this:
(And, no, I haven't tried it, ain't gonna try it, and don't even like coffee.)
Keith - all I know is that I was firmly in the camp of not believing. I've heard it myself, and it's true. I was folding the shipping boxes this morning, and my wife says - "You're recycling, right - because I'm not sending it back" |
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Post by liv2teach on Nov 29, 2018 11:15:14 GMT -5
Mea Culpa. Mea Culpa. Mea Culpa. My trial ultraRendu arrived today. It was 35F outside (1C), so I let it warm up on a table for a few hours and then installed it. Took me about 5 minutes once referenced my XMC-1 manual to remind myself where the USB input was located. My wife and I just spent 90 minutes playing a variety of music via Roon. My judgement in a blind A/B test (A = Oppo-UDP203 B=ultraRendu). The ultraRendu was easy to pick out. Fuller, more "analog" sound. Not even close. Laura's judgement: The ultraRendu. By far. She says, "You're not sending it back, right..." As a statement, not a question  I was wrong. You guys were right. Thank you for teaching a stubborn student! What dac are you using? |
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 29, 2018 11:46:25 GMT -5
Well, the manufacturer has publicly CLAIMED (on this Lounge) that the bits ARE the same. KeithL says that "It would be very surprising if files that have been confirmed to be the same by a bit compare sound different..." And in theory, I believe that statement to be absolutely true. However, in practice, with NO OTHER CHANGE to my system than the insertion of the Microrendu upstream of my DAC, changes were definitely heard. And my experience isn't unique. So something plainly is wrong. Either the MR is changing bits, or digital transfer theory is missing some important issues that (while apparently insignificant for raw data transfer) ARE significant for streaming music data. Is this possible? I'm not an expert at digital data transfer, but I'm meeting for dinner tonight with the head of the LSU Supercomputing department (who IS). I'll be bringing the Microrendu for him to look at, and will relay the results of that discussion here. Hopefully we can disassemble / reassemble it without damage. He'll also probably copy the Linux OS from the Micro-SD card for analysis. He LIVES in the Linux world, and will know if any code has been added or altered. I hope we will also be able to do a bit-compare of the MR input vs. output & find out once and for all if the bits are truly identical. So we'll hopefully be able to find out, ending all further speculation, if there's dog pee in the Microrendu beer or not. Boomzilla PS: Note that I own the Microrendu under analysis - it was NOT purchased directly from Sonore, and therefore any customer agreements not to reverse-engineer the device are null and void. I intend no commercial use of the data obtained by these analyses, and accept no liability, implied or expressed, for the publication of such data. Glenn Young - November 29, 2018. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 29, 2018 12:38:21 GMT -5
It makes no sense. I’m a computer scientist. Been doing it for years. I thought data was data. And it is in the financial world in which I work. But music data. I have a lot to learn. BTW. The music sounds more analog to me. Same DAC, different result. I am glad you tried the experiment. Quite uncanny that we've had numerous skeptics, me included, who tried the experiment and find a surprising and good result. I think we all have a lot to learn on this topic. Like you, I'm a techie, and I'm at a loss to explain "why" the gain is so real and clear. And I agree - sounds much more like analog. Mark |
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Post by garbulky on Nov 29, 2018 12:40:40 GMT -5
Well, the manufacturer has publicly CLAIMED (on this Lounge) that the bits ARE the same. KeithL says that "It would be very surprising if files that have been confirmed to be the same by a bit compare sound different..." And in theory, I believe that statement to be absolutely true. However, in practice, with NO OTHER CHANGE to my system than the insertion of the Microrendu upstream of my DAC, changes were definitely heard. And my experience isn't unique. So something plainly is wrong. Either the MR is changing bits, or digital transfer theory is missing some important issues that (while apparently insignificant for raw data transfer) ARE significant for streaming music data. Is this possible? I'm not an expert at digital data transfer, but I'm meeting for dinner tonight with the head of the LSU Supercomputing department (who IS). I'll be bringing the Microrendu for him to look at, and will relay the results of that discussion here. Hopefully we can disassemble / reassemble it without damage. He'll also probably copy the Linux OS from the Micro-SD card for analysis. He LIVES in the Linux world, and will know if any code has been added or altered. I hope we will also be able to do a bit-compare of the MR input vs. output & find out once and for all if the bits are truly identical. So we'll hopefully be able to find out, ending all further speculation, if there's dog pee in the Microrendu beer or not. Boomzilla PS: Note that I own the Microrendu under analysis - it was NOT purchased directly from Sonore, and therefore any customer agreements not to reverse-engineer the device are null and void. I intend no commercial use of the data obtained by these analyses, and accept no liability, implied or expressed, for the publication of such data. Glenn Young - November 29, 2018. Good luck with figuring that out! Sounds tough unless he specializes in audio data protocols |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 29, 2018 12:58:45 GMT -5
It makes one wonder if maybe they ARE changing the bits.....  Its uncanny, right? Bits are bits and it shouldn't be better.... But it is. If I were a company like Emotiva (who makes CD players and is pondering a thin client streamer), I'd sure want to know what the "secret sauce" is that these other companies have found so I could get in on the market share. Frankly, if Emotiva had an option, I would give it a try. but they don't so I can't. With streaming likely to play a larger and larger role in the future, I'd not want to miss out on the sales of stand-alone units - and I'd be building them into my pre-pro's for sure. It's quite clear that with the 6* Lounge Lizards that I know of that have tried them lately (me, boomzilla, wilburthegoose, novisnick, bitsandbytes and chicagorspec) and each reporting the same type of noticeable improvement in sound, there's something there. And, it is gaining traction. Mark *PS - and this doesn't count the many who have had them for a long time, like dyohn, brubacca, sahmen, etc... |
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Post by pedrocols on Nov 29, 2018 14:23:45 GMT -5
You can post and conduct all the measurements you want and that's not gonna change what I hear with the microrendu.
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Post by wilburthegoose on Nov 29, 2018 14:25:24 GMT -5
Emotiva XMC-1 |
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Post by wilburthegoose on Nov 29, 2018 14:28:02 GMT -5
Trust me, I have a nice RaspberryPi endpoint that I paid $100 for. The ultraRendu was > $800 (on black Friday sale). I surely tried the ultraRendu with every intent of returning it.
Once my wife heard it, she instructed me to keep it. I did a blind test - she had no idea which endpoint was playing.
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 29, 2018 14:46:00 GMT -5
Good luck with figuring that out! Sounds tough unless he specializes in audio data protocols That's the point. There are no such things as "audio data protocols" unless we're talking codecs (which we aren't - the Sonore and SOtM lines are agnostic when it comes to codec). |
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Post by garbulky on Nov 29, 2018 15:16:13 GMT -5
Good luck with figuring that out! Sounds tough unless he specializes in audio data protocols That's the point. There are no such things as "audio data protocols" unless we're talking codecs (which we aren't - the Sonore and SOtM lines are agnostic when it comes to codec). I think it's got something to do with audio data but not sure what. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 29, 2018 15:30:41 GMT -5
No. Ethernet offers Universal Plug & Play DLNA (that most Roon users don't use), but USB is USB for data AND music, unless I'm mistaken. And both Microrendu AND SOtM work with or without UP&P-DLNA.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 29, 2018 15:37:28 GMT -5
I would never rule anything out - especially if I haven't experienced it myself (or tried). However, I will admit to being somewhat uncomfortable in situations where there are no viable explanations for something that is claimed to be happening. It leads me to suspect that, if there is something going on, then it's likely to not be what everyone thinks.
And I find it puzzling that the folks who sell the gadget seem to have no explanation as to why it should be reasonably expected to make any difference. For example, what if it actually adds some horrible amount of jitter, or a little bit of phase shift, and a lot of people just find that this actually makes it sound nice instead of awful?
(Many people seem to enjoy the sound of tube equipment; yet, personally, I simply find neither the sound of it nor the measurements to be especially impressive.)
I would also point out that DLNA is sort of a major unknown. (I have little confidence that a DLNA server will never alter the content along the way... or that it will tell you if it does.)
I would also ask, not as a challenge, but merely as a point of reference....
How many people have actually discovered a preference in a double-blind test (where expectations have absolutely no effect on the result)?
And, yes, I would be very interested to see it established, once and for all, that they aren't simply changing the bits to make the audio sound different.
It makes one wonder if maybe they ARE changing the bits..... If I were a company like Emotiva (who makes CD players and is pondering a thin client streamer), I'd sure want to know what the "secret sauce" is that these other companies have found so I could get in on the market share. Frankly, if Emotiva had an option, I would give it a try. but they don't so I can't. With streaming likely to play a larger and larger role in the future, I'd not want to miss out on the sales of stand-alone units - and I'd be building them into my pre-pro's for sure. It's quite clear that with the 6* Lounge Lizards that I know of that have tried them lately (me, boomzilla, wilburthegoose, novisnick, bitsandbytes and chicagorspec) and each reporting the same type of noticeable improvement in sound, there's something there. And, it is gaining traction. Mark *PS - and this doesn't count the many who have had them for a long time, like dyohn, brubacca, sahmen, etc... |
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 29, 2018 15:48:35 GMT -5
...I would also point out that DLNA is sort of a major unknown. I have little confidence that a DLNA server will never alter the content along the way... or that it will tell you if it does... Amen to that, brother - I've experienced it myself! |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 29, 2018 16:05:50 GMT -5
Another interesting thing to think about. On the DC-1, the asynch USB input should be almost entirely immune to jitter, and the ASRC also removes jitter very well, which makes using both somewhat redundant. However, even though it probably shouldn't, engaging the ASRC does seem to make a slight difference in sound, so you might try it both ways. And there is still the possibility of the DAC's being somewhat sensitive to power supply noise on the USB lines.... (I believe the DC-1 has full galvanic isolation on its Coax inputs, and optical is inherently perfectly isolated, but it does not have full galvanic isolation on USB.)
Note that, if isolation alone was the issue, a "full-on USB galvanic isolation device" costs about $50. (It will be limited to lower sample rates... but the isolation it provides is extremely good.)
...I would also point out that DLNA is sort of a major unknown. I have little confidence that a DLNA server will never alter the content along the way... or that it will tell you if it does... Amen to that, brother - I've experienced it myself! |
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Post by novisnick on Nov 29, 2018 16:23:52 GMT -5
Im game BoomzillaOriginal Three to get ready from Take Five and Unsquare Dance Nora Jones, Gars favorite |
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Post by Loop 7 on Nov 29, 2018 16:31:44 GMT -5
On the DC-1, the asynch USB input should be almost entirely immune to jitter, and the ASRC also removes jitter very well, which makes using both somewhat redundant. Have you tried any of these devices like the Rendu? |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 29, 2018 16:38:25 GMT -5
On the DC-1, the asynch USB input should be almost entirely immune to jitter, and the ASRC also removes jitter very well, which makes using both somewhat redundant. Have you tried any of these devices like the Rendu? Ooooh....oooooh....I'll answer that. "No" I asked that recently and that, in a nutshell, was the answer. Mark |
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