KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 24, 2019 11:07:44 GMT -5
Just for the record - I don't disagree with you at all. However, as with anything else, it's a matter of how much you put into it, and how much you get back.... and where you can get the most benefit for the least effort.
I speak to a lot of people who seem to believe that room correction can cure virtually any problem. And, if their current room correction software can't cure a particular problem, then the solution is to use better room correction, or an EQ with more bands. As you say, you are always hearing the room more than anything else, and no amount of room correction is going to make the room entirely go away. (Unfortunately, from my experience, many people believe the exact opposite... that, if only they could find the perfect room correction system, it could make the room no longer matter.)
I find that modern technology often tends to encourage people to focus on the details of the technology itself rather than on what it's actually doing. For example, if you measure a room with a pink noise file, and a meter, you're getting a long-term average that includes the effects of room reverberance and the T60 at different frequencies. And, if you use a system that uses a short time window to exclude all but direct sound, you're going to get a very different result. And the difference between those two graphs will tell you a lot about how the room acts at different frequencies.
Yet I find that, instead of recognizing that both results are "correct", and the difference between them tells you a lot of valuable information about the room... Many people instead obsess over "which measurement is right" - and then proceed to do their best to ignore the results of the other one.
In short, a lot of people see "room correction" as a way to avoid fixing problems with the room itself - rather than as a way to further perfect the situation AFTER making some basic corrections to the room itself.
I've also found that many people seem to feel a need to "use whatever they have"... So, for example, if they had a single bump in the bass centered at 50 Hz, they could probably fix it by properly configuring a single PEQ band...
Yet, if they have an 11-band PEQ, they'll "find something to do with the other bands", and potentially spend hours trying to fix truly trivial fractional dB "issues", often doing more harm than good in the process....
I'm reminded of an article I read a long time ago - when CGI-based image editing and correction became "easy". Previously, many scenes in many movies had trivial "errors", like an actor or actress quickly glancing in the wrong direction, or unimportant objects on a table disappearing between camera takes. Apparently, Star Wars was one of the first movies filmed using technology that made it relatively simple to use direct editing to correct such errors. (One example offered was that, in one scene, an actress glanced quickly in an odd direction, and they actually edited the movement of her eyeballs to correct the direction of her glance.) However, and this was the point of my mentioning this, the author also commented that, once this ability to correct minor flaws became available.... They ended up making, literally, thousands of minor corrections to minor issues - many of which were truly trivial and would have previously been entirely ignored. And, while the result may have been a technically more perfect product, they ended up expending a LOT of time and expense "fixing problems that really weren't worth fixing".
The article also cites a few rather comical examples where minor fixes ended up causing the need for other minor fixes...
(The author concluded that, once the technology became available, "there were very few of the thousands of short cut-scenes in the entire film where they couldn't find something to fix".)
As I said, I have nothing against getting things right, or technically more accurate. But I fear we are approaching the point where a lot of people never get to listen to their system because they never finish setting it up to their satisfaction.
(This suggests that one of the "great undocumented benefits" of professional calibration is that the person you hire to do it eventually goes home... at which point there's nothing left for the consumer to do but enjoy the results.)
While I usually agree with Keith, I think there is much more to EQing a room than simply setting a couple of filters. Furthermore, EQing for music and movies are two entirely different exercises due to how music is recorded and mixed versus a movie soundtrack laden with foley effects. You are always hearing the room more than anything else. Having calibrated MANY systems over the years, our approach and centers on this very fact combined with digital manipulation via EQ (the extent depending on main use of movies vs music). Understanding this concept pays large dividends with regard to how much or little you then allow room correction systems (DIRAC...had to tie it in with this thread somehow ) to manipulate the sound.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 24, 2019 11:18:02 GMT -5
The short answer to your question is that, when we find and fix a problem with "certain registers", it's only going to provide a solution when we're working with devices that use those particular registers, and that use them correctly.
(If we're "dropping a status flag", we can fix that. However, if someone is failing to set the flag to begin with, then we need to figure out some way to work around their omission... without breaking something else.)
Part of the problem is that many of the issues that occur with HDMI 2.0, as well as some of the new sound modes, are not simple errors. For example, what if you have a disc that contains Dolby Atmos content, but does not have the appropriate flags set to say so. The standard says that you're supposed to "trust the flag"... But, in reality, if you do so, then some discs won't play right... But, if you ignore the flag, and try to determine the facts from the content, then you risk making occasional errors... (And no processor, even the RMC-1, is "smart enough" to determine that, even though everything is correct according to the flags, "the picture still looks odd" or "the channels don't seem right".) Therefore, the development process often requires us to make informed decisions about things like when to follow the standard, and when NOT to do so. What makes it difficult is that, at the same time, many other vendors are also sometimes deciding not to follow the standard in order to avoid other issues with other products.
Unfortunately, in many cases, the result is a moving target, which can simply take a while to "zero in on as best we can".
I believe EMOTIVA should just focus on the remaining small, decoding, and audio bugs for now. AUDIO quality, and HDMI locking trumps everything else. Yes, Yes, Yes. Menu and setup stuff is "set and forget" - does it need to be pretty ...not really - as long as it's consistent (even if that means it's always SLOW). If Lonnie has found the registers that are/were causing the problem(s) why does the fix work on some devices and not others? I have tried setting my devices to both HDMI 2.0 and 1.4 and there's no difference. My Tivo works very nicely, but a Samsung 4K player does DTS well and everything else has dropouts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2019 11:45:44 GMT -5
Thank you Keith. When I first set up my RMC-1 I encountered for the very first time ever while using HDMI a HDCP copy protection error blue screen. What I inferred from that experience was that (you) Emotiva was trying very hard to strictly adhere to HDMI 2.0's licensing requirements. I think you guys are taking things more seriously than the big guys like Sony, Pioneer, and Marantz (and that's a good thing ). I do appreciate the efforts that have been made toward making the RMC-1 better and more stable with each new firmware update. Let's just hope that eventually all manufacturers will agree on a similar "moving target."
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Post by TDifEQ on Apr 24, 2019 12:19:32 GMT -5
I use a Harmony remote and for the daily use functions it is very responsive. I don't notice any delay. Going into the menu functions are responsive too, there is lag when you go to set speaker levels, but that is due to the menu application not the remote. Same here. I use a Harmony Elite. No problems at all. I'll try this. Best remote I've used is with the OPPO203. Lights up like a Christmas tree with a motion sensor ... and the batteries seem to last forever, figuratively speaking.
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Delco
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Post by Delco on Apr 24, 2019 12:46:23 GMT -5
The short answer to your question is that, when we find and fix a problem with "certain registers", it's only going to provide a solution when we're working with devices that use those particular registers, and that use them correctly.
(If we're "dropping a status flag", we can fix that. However, if someone is failing to set the flag to begin with, then we need to figure out some way to work around their omission... without breaking something else.)
Part of the problem is that many of the issues that occur with HDMI 2.0, as well as some of the new sound modes, are not simple errors. For example, what if you have a disc that contains Dolby Atmos content, but does not have the appropriate flags set to say so. The standard says that you're supposed to "trust the flag"... But, in reality, if you do so, then some discs won't play right... But, if you ignore the flag, and try to determine the facts from the content, then you risk making occasional errors... (And no processor, even the RMC-1, is "smart enough" to determine that, even though everything is correct according to the flags, "the picture still looks odd" or "the channels don't seem right".) Therefore, the development process often requires us to make informed decisions about things like when to follow the standard, and when NOT to do so. What makes it difficult is that, at the same time, many other vendors are also sometimes deciding not to follow the standard in order to avoid other issues with other products.
Unfortunately, in many cases, the result is a moving target, which can simply take a while to "zero in on as best we can".
Yes, Yes, Yes. Menu and setup stuff is "set and forget" - does it need to be pretty ...not really - as long as it's consistent (even if that means it's always SLOW). If Lonnie has found the registers that are/were causing the problem(s) why does the fix work on some devices and not others? I have tried setting my devices to both HDMI 2.0 and 1.4 and there's no difference. My Tivo works very nicely, but a Samsung 4K player does DTS well and everything else has dropouts. I totally agree, that being said what is the status of the next updates and when can we expect them? Lonnie or Keith?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2019 15:54:55 GMT -5
... and back to all things HDMI. I just made the mistake of attempting to change the Color space on my Samsung 4K player and entered HDMI HELL. I was hoping that it might help with Atmos and streaming dropouts. Tried for 1.5 hours to unplug/re-plug, power off, etc. without success. I eventually had to connect the player directly to my projector to reset things. I now have all settings on my DVDO Duo set to "auto" . With 1.2 all settings were specifically configured (i.e. color space, Colorimetry, Video level, Chromaticity). Will be adding a new HDBaseT matrix switch next week - will see if it's more or less stable - it's supposedly HDMI 2.0 compliant (at the very least it should keep things interresting). Lee
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Post by goozoo on Apr 24, 2019 16:03:44 GMT -5
... and back to all things HDMI. I just made the mistake of attempting to change the Color space on my Samsung 4K player and entered HDMI HELL. I was hoping that it might help with Atmos and streaming dropouts. Tried for 1.5 hours to unplug/re-plug, power off, etc. without success. I eventually had to connect the player directly to my projector to reset things. I now have all settings on my DVDO Duo set to "auto" . With 1.2 all settings were specifically configured (i.e. color space, Colorimetry, Video level, Chromaticity). Will be adding a new HDBaseT matrix switch next week - will see if it's more or less stable - it's supposedly HDMI 2.0 compliant (at the very least it should keep things interresting). Lee So here is the question, did changing the color space help with any dropouts in ATMOS streaming? As you are using a DVDO DUO, I assume you are watching in 1080p and listening in UHD audio. Are you still getting the dropouts if you go straight from your streamer to the RMC-1 for ATMOS playback? What I’m getting at is whether or not this is an HDMI sync issue or an audio clock timing issue in the chip on the RMC1?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2019 16:54:22 GMT -5
So here is the question, did changing the color space help with any dropouts in ATMOS streaming? As you are using a DVDO DUO, I assume you are watching in 1080p and listening in UHD audio. Are you still getting the dropouts if you go straight from your streamer to the RMC-1 for ATMOS playback? What I’m getting at is whether or not this is an HDMI sync issue or an audio clock timing issue in the chip on the RMC1? I was unable to get the Samsung to connect when I changed the color space ... sooo don't know if that would have fixed Atmos. It was only the Samsung piece that failed to connect - my Tivo and an old Sony BD player I tried were fine. The older BD player even handled The Outer Limits @ 2.0 pcm via Amazon Prime without dropouts (unlike the Samsung). My A/V path is as follows: Source(s): 1. Tivo Bolt Vox. 2. Samsung UBD-M7500. RMC-1 - currently acting as the video switcher - feeding the DVDO Duo. DVDO Duo - used to set color space, provide color, grey scale and gama correction - feeeding the Panasonic PTAE-7000 @ 1080p 60hz. PTAE-7000 Prior to firmware 1.3 I tried removing the DVDO and HDMI syncing was slightly quicker, but it didn't fix audio dropouts (and of course, it also removes my video calibrations). What I will investigate next week is whether or not using an HDBaseT switch results in better HDMI syncing and/or fewer audio dropouts. I will try it both before and after the RMC-1 and with and without the DVDO and report my findings here (lots of permutations/possibilities). I'm hoping that it might act like some HDFurry products have for other users, by possibly providing a more constant/consistent EDID signal. Lee
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Post by TDifEQ on Apr 24, 2019 17:03:08 GMT -5
Which matrix switch are you getting?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2019 17:09:09 GMT -5
It's the 4K WolfPack 8x16 (8x8x2) HDMI Matrix Switcher Over HDBaseT & HDCP 2.2 from HDTV Supply (the 300' version). I did a quick test with it the other day @1080p at about 225' and the image was surprizingly good (at least on a little 24" tv ). I got this unit becuase it provides video, ir, rs232, analog audio (at the switch), and networking. Most other matrix's I've seen don't have network pass through or analog audio out - they typically provide only video, ir, and rs232.
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twism
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Post by twism on Apr 24, 2019 20:27:23 GMT -5
The short answer to your question is that, when we find and fix a problem with "certain registers", it's only going to provide a solution when we're working with devices that use those particular registers, and that use them correctly.
(If we're "dropping a status flag", we can fix that. However, if someone is failing to set the flag to begin with, then we need to figure out some way to work around their omission... without breaking something else.)
Part of the problem is that many of the issues that occur with HDMI 2.0, as well as some of the new sound modes, are not simple errors. For example, what if you have a disc that contains Dolby Atmos content, but does not have the appropriate flags set to say so. The standard says that you're supposed to "trust the flag"... But, in reality, if you do so, then some discs won't play right... But, if you ignore the flag, and try to determine the facts from the content, then you risk making occasional errors... (And no processor, even the RMC-1, is "smart enough" to determine that, even though everything is correct according to the flags, "the picture still looks odd" or "the channels don't seem right".) Therefore, the development process often requires us to make informed decisions about things like when to follow the standard, and when NOT to do so. What makes it difficult is that, at the same time, many other vendors are also sometimes deciding not to follow the standard in order to avoid other issues with other products.
Unfortunately, in many cases, the result is a moving target, which can simply take a while to "zero in on as best we can".
I totally agree, that being said what is the status of the next updates and when can we expect them? Lonnie or Keith? Is everything working through your Lumagen now with the RMC-1?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2019 20:44:19 GMT -5
twism, If you are asking me "brucelee" if I was able to get my "DVDO Duo" working again the answer is "yes". There are at least 1-2 individuals who have been using Lumagen units with some difficulty ... and it would be good to find out if they are having any better luck with 1.3 . I would hope that being able to force inputs to either HDMI 1.4 or 2.0 should make more of a difference for them than it has/can for me (the DVDO is several years old - it might not even be fully HDMI 1.4 compliant). Lee
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twism
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Post by twism on Apr 24, 2019 21:03:41 GMT -5
twism, If you are asking me "brucelee" if I was able to get my "DVDO Duo" working again the answer is "yes". There are at least 1-2 individuals who have been using Lumagen units with some difficulty ... and it would be good to find out if they are having any better luck with 1.3 . I would hope that being able to force inputs to either HDMI 1.4 or 2.0 should make more of a difference for them than it has/can for me (the DVDO is several years old - it might not even be fully HDMI 1.4 compliant).
Lee Thanks. I was a previous RMC user but couldn’t get it to work after an update. Keeping my Lumagen in the chain was more important to me so I put my AVM60 back in. Still lurking to see some confirmation of it working better with the RMC so I can decide if I want back in. Looks like progress is being made for sure but just looking for some Lumagen feedback.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Apr 24, 2019 21:24:47 GMT -5
Anybody have left / right audio unbalanced. My two channel tube setup is balanced with center, dead center. HT has the left speaker more dominant and the center audio is left of center. I’ve done all the measurements and distances. I have to turn the left speaker out radically to get centered audio.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2019 21:43:05 GMT -5
I was a previous RMC user but couldn’t get it to work after an update. Keeping my Lumagen in the chain was more important to me so I put my AVM60 back in. Still lurking to see some confirmation of it working better with the RMC so I can decide if I want back in. Looks like progress is being made for sure but just looking for some Lumagen feedback. I certainly understand the benefit of having the Lumagen in the equation - it makes display calibration better/simpler. Did you ever try using the RMC-1 as your source switcher ahead of the Lumagen? Or do you have individual calibration settings per input on the Lumagen that would preclude it from being placed after the RMC-1? (The DVDO has only two calibration memories and you have to manually select between them.)
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Delco
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Post by Delco on Apr 24, 2019 23:01:08 GMT -5
I totally agree, that being said what is the status of the next updates and when can we expect them? Lonnie or Keith? Is everything working through your Lumagen now with the RMC-1? Working "OK", sometimes switching between inputs I get a please wait. I do not connect all of my devices through the Lumagen. I only send the output of the RMC-1 through so I can get the OSD. Had issues when I had all the inputs switched through the Lumagen. Have not tried using 1.3 because everything works Waiting for my new projector to have about 50 hours on it so it can be professionally calibrated. I might switch it before that....not sure yet...
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Post by TDifEQ on Apr 25, 2019 4:19:50 GMT -5
Can we have a 1.3 update from Lonnie?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 25, 2019 9:49:44 GMT -5
Firmware update v1.3 was released a few days ago.
Firmware v 1.4 will be along soon - although I don't have a date yet.
(At this point we are recommending that anyone who hasn't already install v 1.3 ... and not even bother to worry about v 1.4 unless you still have issues.)
Can we have a 1.3 update from Lonnie?
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Post by goozoo on Apr 25, 2019 9:54:32 GMT -5
Firmware update v1.3 was released a few days ago.
Firmware v 1.4 will be along soon - although I don't have a date yet.
(At this point we are recommending that anyone who hasn't already install v 1.3 ... and not even bother to worry about v 1.4 unless you still have issues.)
Can we have a 1.3 update from Lonnie? Keith there are many users here that are still having issues with ATMOS dropouts while streaming as well as DSD thumps. Truly hoping that 1.4 addresses these.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 25, 2019 9:58:14 GMT -5
REQUEST FOR DETAILED INFORMATION
We've had reports that some users are still experiencing audio dropouts with Atmos - but only with streaming content. Since this doesn't happen with discs, it seems obvious that some streaming content providers are not providing their programming in totally standard form. (It's also possible that the same movie, from the same streaming provider, may play differently on different devices and apps.)
In order to help us investigate this - if you wish to report such a problem (whether you post it or contact us directly) please note the following:
1) The exact problem and how often it's occurring.
2) The device you are using (Apple TV, Roku, or the app in your TV). 3) If it's a streaming box please include the version; if it's an app on a TV please include the brand and model of TV.
4) Any interesting settings (for example, if you're setting NetFlix to use lower bandwidth)
5) The streaming service you are using (Amazon Video, NetFlix, etc.)
6) It might even help if you mention the particular movies or shows you've noticed it with.
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