Lsc
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 3,434
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Post by Lsc on May 18, 2020 18:42:17 GMT -5
All systems have limitations, my towers wouldn't fit in my bedroom, but sh**, neither would a sub😅 My bedroom is 16 x 25 x 9. Due to doors and furniture, it don't have many choices for sub location though. None of it is ideal for critical listening, but it sure is a cozy bedroom set up. I stopped using my theater room, which was purpose built for it, when I stopped having friends over so much to watch movies. I got tired of walking down to the basement to watch a movie when it was just the wife and I. Ok ok...my emo buddy, if you don’t have many choices in that monster sized bedroom, you might want to get rid of some furniture 😬. |
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Post by geebo on May 18, 2020 18:56:43 GMT -5
I was playing around with different modes last night at reference levels and when I switched to Direct mode I’ll just say the pucker factor was real as I fumbled for the volume down button in the dark 😂 I don't use Direct mode because I want the extra processing. But, if you think about it, why would Direct be "louder"? Isn't this telling in some way that there is an imbalance? I used the word inconsistent. This really isn't the best word because what I experience is consistent. It's just that different codecs have different levels of output. I don't experience the same with my Marantz. The delta is much closer. Just ran a few quick tests. With a PCM 5.1 signal there are no apparent volume differences between NeuralX, DSU, Direct or Surround modes. With a DTS-MA 5.1 source I did notice a lower volume when selecting NeuralX but the others modes were all the same volume. With a Dolby TrueHD 5.1 source the available surround mode all played at the same volume level. And with Adele at the RAH I didn't get any echo when using NeuralX. All were played through an Oppo 203 and a 5.2.2 setup. |
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Post by megash0n on May 18, 2020 19:48:58 GMT -5
My bedroom is 16 x 25 x 9. Due to doors and furniture, it don't have many choices for sub location though. None of it is ideal for critical listening, but it sure is a cozy bedroom set up. I stopped using my theater room, which was purpose built for it, when I stopped having friends over so much to watch movies. I got tired of walking down to the basement to watch a movie when it was just the wife and I. Ok ok...my emo buddy, if you don’t have many choices in that monster sized bedroom, you might want to get rid of some furniture 😬. Haha. Well, there are 3 doors. Two close to each other. The other in the other corner. So, that leaves half the front wall and down the left side wall. I could technically could put them against the side walls in the middle, but they would look pretty bad on the right wall. It wouldn't matter on the left. I built a partition wall close to center of the room lengthwise to mount the tv an appropriate distance from the bed. This is also where the LCR are. I could put them behind the LR, but this would have them close to the middle of the room which is pretty much a dead zone. Anywhere else is in a walkway. So, I have options, but not necessarily options for good sub locations due to my listening location being in the bed, against the wall. To make matters worse, I'm planning to use all available corners for bass traps or build diaphragmatic absorbers at wall locations where peaks and nulls exist. Part of me also just accepts it won't be perfect because of the bed location. |
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Post by megash0n on May 18, 2020 19:56:37 GMT -5
I don't use Direct mode because I want the extra processing. But, if you think about it, why would Direct be "louder"? Isn't this telling in some way that there is an imbalance? I used the word inconsistent. This really isn't the best word because what I experience is consistent. It's just that different codecs have different levels of output. I don't experience the same with my Marantz. The delta is much closer. Just ran a few quick tests. With a PCM 5.1 signal there are no apparent volume differences between NeuralX, DSU, Direct or Surround modes. With a DTS-MA 5.1 source I did notice a lower volume when selecting NeuralX but the others modes were all the same volume. With a Dolby TrueHD 5.1 source the available surround mode all played at the same volume level. And with Adele at the RAH I didn't get any echo when using NeuralX. All were played through an Oppo 203 and a 5.2.2 setup. could it be the rear heights then? It is unlikely to think anything hardware related could cause it. I haven't done much testing thru the Xbox. My only real testing has been from a computer. I'm curious if all of us having these issues are using a PC. We need to come up with some similarities here. To me, this isn't something that is close in comparison. Switching between surround or neural is very noticeable. The volume delta between DSU to Neural is at least 6 db. |
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Post by geebo on May 18, 2020 20:02:24 GMT -5
Just ran a few quick tests. With a PCM 5.1 signal there are no apparent volume differences between NeuralX, DSU, Direct or Surround modes. With a DTS-MA 5.1 source I did notice a lower volume when selecting NeuralX but the others modes were all the same volume. With a Dolby TrueHD 5.1 source the available surround mode all played at the same volume level. And with Adele at the RAH I didn't get any echo when using NeuralX. All were played through an Oppo 203 and a 5.2.2 setup. could it be the rear heights then? It is unlikely to think anything hardware related could cause it. I haven't done much testing thru the Xbox. My only real testing has been from a computer. I'm curious if all of us having these issues are using a PC. We need to come up with some similarities here. To me, this isn't something that is close in comparison. Switching between surround or neural is very noticeable. The volume delta between DSU to Neural is at least 6 db. It is for me, too, but ONLY if playing a DTS-MA source. The difference between surround and NeuralX is very apparent. Not so with a PCM 5.1 source. |
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Post by megash0n on May 18, 2020 20:31:00 GMT -5
could it be the rear heights then? It is unlikely to think anything hardware related could cause it. I haven't done much testing thru the Xbox. My only real testing has been from a computer. I'm curious if all of us having these issues are using a PC. We need to come up with some similarities here. To me, this isn't something that is close in comparison. Switching between surround or neural is very noticeable. The volume delta between DSU to Neural is at least 6 db. It is for me, too, but ONLY if playing a DTS-MA source. The difference between surround and NeuralX is very apparent. Not so with a PCM 5.1 source. I gotcha. |
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Post by foggy1956 on May 18, 2020 20:47:42 GMT -5
It is for me, too, but ONLY if playing a DTS-MA source. The difference between surround and NeuralX is very apparent. Not so with a PCM 5.1 source. I gotcha. With my xmc-1 some of jrivers audio settings would cause issues, however I only noticed it with music. Not sure if that helps at all. |
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Post by bblv on May 19, 2020 1:21:04 GMT -5
Just ran a few quick tests. With a PCM 5.1 signal there are no apparent volume differences between NeuralX, DSU, Direct or Surround modes. With a DTS-MA 5.1 source I did notice a lower volume when selecting NeuralX but the others modes were all the same volume. With a Dolby TrueHD 5.1 source the available surround mode all played at the same volume level. And with Adele at the RAH I didn't get any echo when using NeuralX. All were played through an Oppo 203 and a 5.2.2 setup. could it be the rear heights then? It is unlikely to think anything hardware related could cause it. I haven't done much testing thru the Xbox. My only real testing has been from a computer. I'm curious if all of us having these issues are using a PC. We need to come up with some similarities here. To me, this isn't something that is close in comparison. Switching between surround or neural is very noticeable. The volume delta between DSU to Neural is at least 6 db. I’m noticing the volume difference using my Win10 PC delivering a PCM 7.1 signal via an Nvidia 2080 connected with HDMI. |
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Post by bluescale on May 19, 2020 3:21:55 GMT -5
I think the low end seems to be missing a lot as well. Watching a movie flipping back and forth.. There is just a very noticeable difference in what I always call horsepower. But, now that I think about it.. Should I be using the word torque instead? 😂😂😂😂 This is probably the more accurate analogy. My experience (and I'm going off of memory from a week ago, and I haven't tried it out since installing 1.10, so take this for what it's worth...) was different. Neural X definitely thinned out the front channels (especially the center), but seemed to leave the bass mostly alone. That meant that dialog and non-bass effects were getting lost in the rumble. It became very noticeable watching Dark Knight, which has one of the cleanest soundtracks I've ever heard. That's why I feel like it's not just a level issue. Dynamic range for non-LFE channels seems to be neutered when Neural X engages. |
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Post by Thunderduck on May 19, 2020 10:02:57 GMT -5
Thank you for the feedback. We are digging into this and will be testing. Lonnie I need to correct an error in regards to the signal path for my tv. The cable signal comes into the CABLE BOX and then from the CABLE BOX TO the RMC via HDMI cable to input 1. The CABLE BOX is also connected to the SOUNDBAR via an optical cable. The only input signal to the tv is the HDMI 2 out from the RMC. The cable box is not connected directly to the tv in any way. All source devices are connected to the RMC via HDMI or in the case of my reel to reel player through the balanced XLR input. All HDMI inputs are configured for HDMI 2.0. If there is any further info you need please let me know and I will try to provide it. I believe that is correct now. Regards, Steve I figured out what my problem was. I had to go into Input settings and for HDMI 1 change the HDMI Type from 2.0 to 1.4. As soon as I did that the audio came on while in Video Remains On mode. I must say this was working with a setting of 2.0 for the HDMI Type under firmware versions 1.8 and previous and stopped working with 1.9 and all after. However, it is now working as it should with no degradation in audio or video (it is the tv after all). So I am now happy and running firmware 1.10 with no issues now. Best Regards, Steve EDIT: Sometimes the best solution is the easiest one. |
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Post by markc on May 19, 2020 12:39:28 GMT -5
Thanks. Now I understand. I didn't realize it created a parallel front set of outputs. Yep. No additional crossovers being applied, like you said its a parallel output to the fronts. Lonnie Dear Lonnie, please see my new thread about issues that arise when using the bi-amp facility of the Front Wides. It adversely affects Surround Sound detection and processing and unnecessarily engages upmixers for 7.1 source to 7.1 speakers as the processor clearly still perceives that height channels are in use. emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/56868/using-channels-adversely-affects-surround |
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Post by marcl on May 19, 2020 13:03:06 GMT -5
Just ran a few quick tests. With a PCM 5.1 signal there are no apparent volume differences between NeuralX, DSU, Direct or Surround modes. With a DTS-MA 5.1 source I did notice a lower volume when selecting NeuralX but the others modes were all the same volume. With a Dolby TrueHD 5.1 source the available surround mode all played at the same volume level. And with Adele at the RAH I didn't get any echo when using NeuralX. All were played through an Oppo 203 and a 5.2.2 setup. could it be the rear heights then? It is unlikely to think anything hardware related could cause it. I haven't done much testing thru the Xbox. My only real testing has been from a computer. I'm curious if all of us having these issues are using a PC. We need to come up with some similarities here. To me, this isn't something that is close in comparison. Switching between surround or neural is very noticeable. The volume delta between DSU to Neural is at least 6 db. Here's a spin on this topic. First of all I swear that sometimes after a hard reboot levels are different overall, causing me to listen at -20db vs -16 or -14. But this just happened: 2-channel streaming source from the PC over HDMI, and I selected DTS upmix (to 7.1.4). Set the volume at -20db. After a couple minutes the volume spontaneously went UP 5db. I switched to DDSurround and the volume remained the same. I have also noticed a few times while watching Netflix on AppleTV that volume would be low, I'd turn it up, and after a few minutes the volume spontaneously increases. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 19, 2020 15:19:57 GMT -5
I would suggest that if we are to track down the ‘Neural:X issue’, we need a repeatable / scientific method. I think it needs to start with a common source, played in a standard way (as much as is possible with our differing systems). The best method I can think of would be to use downloadable demo files, so (some/many/most of us) can be trying the same material following the same method. For instance: Download file xyz Transfer it to your player (list playback method / gear) Playback in direct — listen, measure if possible Playback in surround — listen, measure if possible Playback in Neural:X — listen, measure if possible Write up findings I for instance would download a file to my Mac, copy it to USB and play it on my Oppo, I could also play it across the network but more could probably do USB? This is just an idea / example of how we might account for the differences everyone is reporting, suggestions and refinements are welcome and needed. Here’s a site that has lots of Demo files, some Dolby, some DTS, HD, 4K etc., it’s called The Digital Theater. It seems to me that an HD (1080P) DTS HDMA 5.1 file may be a good place to start as geebo has identified a difference with that. As we go maybe we’ll find other files to use. I haven’t tried any of these, and maybe there’s a better site or plan, but I’m willing to download something and try the above, anyone else? If you find a file that demonstrates the problem post your write up, then the rest of us can try it. >>> DTS Demo Files Page <<<>>> Dolby Demo Files Page <<< |
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Post by megash0n on May 19, 2020 15:36:13 GMT -5
could it be the rear heights then? It is unlikely to think anything hardware related could cause it. I haven't done much testing thru the Xbox. My only real testing has been from a computer. I'm curious if all of us having these issues are using a PC. We need to come up with some similarities here. To me, this isn't something that is close in comparison. Switching between surround or neural is very noticeable. The volume delta between DSU to Neural is at least 6 db. Here's a spin on this topic. First of all I swear that sometimes after a hard reboot levels are different overall, causing me to listen at -20db vs -16 or -14. But this just happened: 2-channel streaming source from the PC over HDMI, and I selected DTS upmix (to 7.1.4). Set the volume at -20db. After a couple minutes the volume spontaneously went UP 5db. I switched to DDSurround and the volume remained the same. I have also noticed a few times while watching Netflix on AppleTV that volume would be low, I'd turn it up, and after a few minutes the volume spontaneously increases. Weird, wild stuff. |
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Post by megash0n on May 19, 2020 15:41:57 GMT -5
I would suggest that if we are to track down the ‘Neural:X issue’, we need a repeatable / scientific method. I think it needs to start with a common source, played in a standard way (as much as is possible with our differing systems). The best method I can think of would be to use downloadable demo files, so (some/many/most of us) can be trying the same material following the same method. For instance: Download file xyz Transfer it to your player (list playback method / gear) Playback in direct — listen, measure if possible Playback in surround — listen, measure if possible Playback in Neural:X — listen, measure if possible Write up findings I for instance would download a file to my Mac, copy it to USB and play it on my Oppo, I could also play it across the network but more could probably do USB? This is just an idea / example of how we might account for the differences everyone is reporting, suggestions and refinements are welcome and needed. Here’s a site that has lots of Demo files, some Dolby, some DTS, HD, 4K etc., it’s called The Digital Theater. It seems to me that an HD (1080P) DTS HDMA 5.1 file may be a good place to start as geebo has identified a difference with that. As we go maybe we’ll find other files to use. I haven’t tried any of these, and maybe there’s a better site or plan, but I’m willing to download something and try the above, anyone else? If you find a file that demonstrates the problem post your write up, then the rest of us can try it. >>> DTS Demo Files Page <<<>>> Dolby Demo Files Page <<<Do you mind creating a new thread for this and paste this there? I probably won't mess with it today, but I would absolutely take part in this adventure. |
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Post by steelman1991 on May 19, 2020 18:04:33 GMT -5
I would suggest that if we are to track down the ‘Neural:X issue’, we need a repeatable / scientific method. I think it needs to start with a common source, played in a standard way (as much as is possible with our differing systems). The best method I can think of would be to use downloadable demo files, so (some/many/most of us) can be trying the same material following the same method. For instance: Download file xyz Transfer it to your player (list playback method / gear) Playback in direct — listen, measure if possible Playback in surround — listen, measure if possible Playback in Neural:X — listen, measure if possible Write up findings I for instance would download a file to my Mac, copy it to USB and play it on my Oppo, I could also play it across the network but more could probably do USB? This is just an idea / example of how we might account for the differences everyone is reporting, suggestions and refinements are welcome and needed. Here’s a site that has lots of Demo files, some Dolby, some DTS, HD, 4K etc., it’s called The Digital Theater. It seems to me that an HD (1080P) DTS HDMA 5.1 file may be a good place to start as geebo has identified a difference with that. As we go maybe we’ll find other files to use. I haven’t tried any of these, and maybe there’s a better site or plan, but I’m willing to download something and try the above, anyone else? If you find a file that demonstrates the problem post your write up, then the rest of us can try it. >>> DTS Demo Files Page <<<>>> Dolby Demo Files Page <<<Here's a quick totally unscientific and dirty analysis. Opening scene of Skyfall (chase through the Grand Bazzar) - DTS HD-MA 5.1, played via Vero4K player. A quick check to give peak readings for a casual comparison of loudness levels. All played at reference (75dB). Direct Mode
Neural:X Surround Mode Purely on these readings, there is little difference YMMV
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Post by markc on May 19, 2020 18:22:41 GMT -5
I would suggest that if we are to track down the ‘Neural:X issue’, we need a repeatable / scientific method. I think it needs to start with a common source, played in a standard way (as much as is possible with our differing systems). The best method I can think of would be to use downloadable demo files, so (some/many/most of us) can be trying the same material following the same method. For instance: Download file xyz Transfer it to your player (list playback method / gear) Playback in direct — listen, measure if possible Playback in surround — listen, measure if possible Playback in Neural:X — listen, measure if possible Write up findings I for instance would download a file to my Mac, copy it to USB and play it on my Oppo, I could also play it across the network but more could probably do USB? This is just an idea / example of how we might account for the differences everyone is reporting, suggestions and refinements are welcome and needed. Here’s a site that has lots of Demo files, some Dolby, some DTS, HD, 4K etc., it’s called The Digital Theater. It seems to me that an HD (1080P) DTS HDMA 5.1 file may be a good place to start as geebo has identified a difference with that. As we go maybe we’ll find other files to use. I haven’t tried any of these, and maybe there’s a better site or plan, but I’m willing to download something and try the above, anyone else? If you find a file that demonstrates the problem post your write up, then the rest of us can try it. >>> DTS Demo Files Page <<<>>> Dolby Demo Files Page <<<I can do this formally with a standard file we choose, but I have already tried all formats. it is all variants of DTS (core, hd and HD MA) in 5.1 and 7.1 variants. I’ve already checked. it is also occurring with 5.1 and 7.1 PCM. I haven’t tried stereo but I Bet I know the answer. basically, any implementation of the Neural X on my XMC-2 has a marked volume decrease within a 5.1 or a 7.1 system and a loss of the discrete channel content in the L, C and R Given my discovery of something weird happening when the Front Wides are set to bi-amp, My bet is that the implementation of Neural X is upmixing to a 9.4.1 or something, even though I don’t have those speakers, so audio is being discarded from those missing channels. It is definitely not just a volume attenuation going on. The way to check this is people with 9.6.1 or 9.4.1 or 7.4.1 to check with this configuration and then to temporarily set the wide and height channels To "None" and check again i include 5.1 source in a 5.1 setup, in a 7.1 setup and in a 7.1 bi-amped using the front wides. same with 7.1 DTS or PCM source in a 7.1 setup or a 7.1 bi-amped using the front wides I used Blu-rays with the relevant sound formats to check. |
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Post by markc on May 19, 2020 18:25:32 GMT -5
Here's a quick totally unscientific and dirty analysis. Opening scene of Skyfall (chase through the Grand Bazzar) - DTS HD-MA 5.1, played via Vero4K player. A quick check to give peak readings for a casual comparison of loudness levels. All played at reference (75dB). Direct Mode
Neural:X
Surround Mode
Purely on these readings, there is little difference YMMV
Could you try it in a 7.1 config and temporarily remove your two height speakers from the speaker preset |
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 19, 2020 18:49:41 GMT -5
I can do this formally with a standard file we choose, but I have already tried all formats. it is all variants of DTS (core, hd and HD MA) in 5.1 and 7.1 variants. I’ve already checked. ... . Ok, then we can drop this topic, you have it covered? |
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Post by megash0n on May 19, 2020 18:59:02 GMT -5
I would suggest that if we are to track down the ‘Neural:X issue’, we need a repeatable / scientific method. I think it needs to start with a common source, played in a standard way (as much as is possible with our differing systems). The best method I can think of would be to use downloadable demo files, so (some/many/most of us) can be trying the same material following the same method. For instance: Download file xyz Transfer it to your player (list playback method / gear) Playback in direct — listen, measure if possible Playback in surround — listen, measure if possible Playback in Neural:X — listen, measure if possible Write up findings I for instance would download a file to my Mac, copy it to USB and play it on my Oppo, I could also play it across the network but more could probably do USB? This is just an idea / example of how we might account for the differences everyone is reporting, suggestions and refinements are welcome and needed. Here’s a site that has lots of Demo files, some Dolby, some DTS, HD, 4K etc., it’s called The Digital Theater. It seems to me that an HD (1080P) DTS HDMA 5.1 file may be a good place to start as geebo has identified a difference with that. As we go maybe we’ll find other files to use. I haven’t tried any of these, and maybe there’s a better site or plan, but I’m willing to download something and try the above, anyone else? If you find a file that demonstrates the problem post your write up, then the rest of us can try it. >>> DTS Demo Files Page <<<>>> Dolby Demo Files Page <<<Here's a quick totally unscientific and dirty analysis. Opening scene of Skyfall (chase through the Grand Bazzar) - DTS HD-MA 5.1, played via Vero4K player. A quick check to give peak readings for a casual comparison of loudness levels. All played at reference (75dB). Direct Mode
Neural:X Surround Mode Purely on these readings, there is little difference YMMV
If I'm not mistaken, you've not quite experienced what some of us have. But, in thinking about some of this, I don't know that I would say that overall SPL in the room is significantly lower. I do have to adjust the volume 4 - 6 db to make it loud enough. But, that doesn't mean that sound improperly coming from the wrong channel isn't as loud. It doesn't so much account for the full so spectrum of audio. My plan is to capture some RTA screenshots to see how different those are. I don't think you are wrong. I just think some of us are experiencing something different than others. |
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