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Post by steelman1991 on May 20, 2020 3:35:17 GMT -5
If I'm not mistaken, you've not quite experienced what some of us have. But, in thinking about some of this, I don't know that I would say that overall SPL in the room is significantly lower. I do have to adjust the volume 4 - 6 db to make it loud enough. But, that doesn't mean that sound improperly coming from the wrong channel isn't as loud. It doesn't so much account for the full so spectrum of audio. My plan is to capture some RTA screenshots to see how different those are. I don't think you are wrong. I just think some of us are experiencing something different than others.
To an extent yes you're correct, though I did experience significant drops in volume levels in Neural:X playback, pre 1.10. So much so that I preferred listening to tracks in their original form - with no added immersion. I was also put off by my last receivers (a Pioneer SC-LX 89) implementation of Neural:X. It's algorithm had effects all over the place and from places they shouldn't have been - so my experience was slightly tainted in that respect.
Post 1.10? nope. None of the previous dips in volume and perceived dynamic reduction is there to my "cloth ears" - sounds really good now and I've moved from listening in "Surround" mode - to "Auto" - which obviously triggers upmixing where appropriate.
Happy days for me, though clearly not for others - strange.
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Post by cwt on May 20, 2020 7:09:18 GMT -5
To an extent yes you're correct, though I did experience significant drops in volume levels in Neural:X playback, pre 1.10. So much so that I preferred listening to tracks in their original form - with no added immersion. I was also put off by my last receivers (a Pioneer SC-LX 89) implementation of Neural:X. It's algorithm had effects all over the place and from places they shouldn't have been - so my experience was slightly tainted in that respect.
Post 1.10? nope. None of the previous dips in volume and perceived dynamic reduction is there to my "cloth ears" - sounds really good now and I've moved from listening in "Surround" mode - to "Auto" - which obviously triggers upmixing where appropriate. The DTS codec has always had less stringent specs than dolby I once read ; including upping a few decibels in the dvd era in comparison to dd [ as dts can sound more impressive this way] Brand new models like the NAD t778 arent immune ; www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/3123286-official-nad-t-778-thread-15.html#post59670446 |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2020 8:24:45 GMT -5
Found a new weird (and repeatable) problem. Went to check speaker levels this morning and got no test tone. I tried going back and forth between Preset 1 and Preset 2 without change. Finally, I changed the test tone level to Off (External). I heard what sounded like a relay click so I tried re-selecting Preset 1 and now I have test tones.
...Investigated further and it seems that if your current source is not playing any audio when you enter the levels menu that you will not get test tones. Not sure if this is a good idea or not on Emo's part?
Anyone else notice this?
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Post by deewan on May 20, 2020 10:16:04 GMT -5
Found a new weird (and repeatable) problem. Went to check speaker levels this morning and got no test tone. I tried going back and forth between Preset 1 and Preset 2 without change. Finally, I changed the test tone level to Off (External). I heard what sounded like a relay click so I tried re-selecting Preset 1 and now I have test tones. ...Investigated further and it seems that if your current source is not playing any audio when you enter the levels menu that you will not get test tones. Not sure if this is a good idea or not on Emo's part? Anyone else notice this? If I recall correctly, in previous FW versions you were required to have an audio format playing in order for test tones to play. But I thought Emo removed the requirement at some point. They may have added it back. It was similar to the fact a video needed to be sent to the display for the OSD to work. I haven't tested either recently so these may have changed with some of the more recent FW releases. I can try testing later today to confirm |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on May 20, 2020 10:29:46 GMT -5
Found a new weird (and repeatable) problem. Went to check speaker levels this morning and got no test tone. I tried going back and forth between Preset 1 and Preset 2 without change. Finally, I changed the test tone level to Off (External). I heard what sounded like a relay click so I tried re-selecting Preset 1 and now I have test tones. ...Investigated further and it seems that if your current source is not playing any audio when you enter the levels menu that you will not get test tones. Not sure if this is a good idea or not on Emo's part? Anyone else notice this? If I recall correctly, in previous FW versions you were required to have an audio format playing in order for test tones to play. But I thought Emo removed the requirement at some point. They may have added it back. It was similar to the fact a video needed to be sent to the display for the OSD to work. I haven't tested either recently so these may have changed with some of the more recent FW releases. I can try testing later today to confirm You've got it right. No video, no OSD. But, I just checked and when my source is paused, or when the AppleTV menu is on screen with no audio playing, or when in the menu for the OPPO no audio playing, every time I check the speaker levels the test tone works. |
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Post by deewan on May 20, 2020 10:34:29 GMT -5
You've got it right. No video, no OSD. But, I just checked and when my source is paused, or when the AppleTV menu is on screen with no audio playing, or when in the menu for the OPPO no audio playing, every time I check the speaker levels the test tone works. Interesting. Another possible option is if the RMC still sort of resets itself to a default audio decoder like when PCM 0.0 is displayed on the Info screen. If the RMC is still displaying an audio input signal type the test tones could work. If the audio input signal is reset and the PCM 0.0 is displayed perhaps that explains why he wa not getting test tones. Again, this is just a guess. I have not tested that recently or messed with test tones for quite some time. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on May 20, 2020 10:42:12 GMT -5
^^^^^^
Yep, that would probably do it, PCM 0.0.
edit: apparently not, as noted below.
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on May 20, 2020 10:55:50 GMT -5
If I recall correctly, in previous FW versions you were required to have an audio format playing in order for test tones to play. But I thought Emo removed the requirement at some point. They may have added it back. It was similar to the fact a video needed to be sent to the display for the OSD to work. I haven't tested either recently so these may have changed with some of the more recent FW releases. I can try testing later today to confirm You've got it right. No video, no OSD. But, I just checked and when my source is paused, or when the AppleTV menu is on screen with no audio playing, or when in the menu for the OPPO no audio playing, every time I check the speaker levels the test tone works. ttocs, This is my finding as well. I even tried cold booting to an input that was turned off, which presents PCM 0.0 on the "INFO" screen, and the "Test Tones" work. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 20, 2020 13:34:56 GMT -5
I HAVE TWO THINGS TO ADD TO THIS - re IMPORTING FILTERS FROM REW
1)
Our engineers noticed that, when you upload filters, THEY DON'T TAKE EFFECT UNTIL YOU CHANGE PRESETS. So, after uploading filters, in order to get the new filters to take effect, you must switch to the other preset. You can then switch back to the original preset... but it is the action of changing the presets that "reads in the new values". (We will probably fix it so the updates take effect immediately in the next firmware update.)
2) Your explanation makes sense..... (or it's possible that something odd happened on our end)
Note that two channels on the unit can be configured to be EITHER left/right subs or height speakers
(and they can be configured differently in each preset). This means that.....the names of those files, and the field labels, will be different depending on which way each preset is configured
Note that: - if you import only filters for some channels the channels for which you don't import filters will simply remain as before
(you won't get any sort of error because some channels weren't updated) - I would assume that, likewise, if you include filters for channels that don't exist in that preset, they too would simply be ignored
I've spoken to a few people who've gotten REW to work with their RMC-1 or XMC-2... and successfully imported REW filter files.....
I would note two things: 1)
Not only do you have to get the NAMES of the files correct... but the channel name is also included in one field inside each file... which must also be correct.
(I'm not sure what would happen if they disagree... but I suspect either something odd would happen... or the file would be ignored as being invalid. 2) The files we're talking about are XML files... which are basically text files in a very specific format. (XML is a programming language... so some things may be altered in specific ways... and others may not... and that includes punctuation, capitalization, and spacing.)
You should be able to edit them with any "XML editor", pure text file editor, or editor that offers the option of saving pure text files. However, many word processing programs do NOT save pure text files, or don't do so by default, so the files they save may not work. As far as I know, if you get ANYTHING "fatally wrong" about one or more of your files, it will simply be ignored.... but you probably will not get any sort of error message.
(Their paid-for editor is really excellent... but the free version is quite adequate for this sort of project... has no annoying adware or commercials... and is completely free.)
Thanks Keith - may well have been formatting issues. Had noticed that some of the speaker locations inside the files had been changed from their original location eg "frontRearHeight" to "leftSubwoofer" - was really strange and without any manual intervention. Might try later with notepad+ see what happens. Was only the subs that proved difficult, (everything from REW imported without issue) but those were the ones that I manually added filters to. Convinced now it's user error, though will test later.
Thanks for the help and keep up the great work - firmware upgrade has made a huge difference.
EDIT Yes I reckon it's been user error - combination of incorrect formatting and using wrong text editor. Tried with Preset 2 and everything working as expected. Now back to our scheduled programming  |
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Post by KeithL on May 20, 2020 15:07:20 GMT -5
I just want to elaborate a bit on UAC1, UAC2, and a few of the DSD options.....
UAC1 is USB Audio Class 1 -
Up until a few years ago, MOST computers and other audio devices supported UAC1 directly, and had the drivers for it built in. This includes Windows and Apple computers, Android and Apple phones, and most audio players.
UAC1 is generally limited to supporting sample rates up to 24/96k... but everyone supports it.
UAC2 is USB Audio Class 2 - Some technicalities aside the main benefit of UAC2 is that it supports higher sample rates (usually up to 24/192k or 24/384k... or even above). Apple computers have included internal driver support for UAC2 for quite a few years. But Windows only started including internal support for it a few years after Windows 10 was released (in the Creators' Editions). Many modern Android phones also support UAC2 - but not all.
Before that, you had to install special drivers... which was a lot more trouble than not having to install special drivers.
One thing to be aware of is that, at the virtual level, a given device is either UAC1 or UAC2. (So, if you change your RMC-1 from UAC1 to UAC2, your player will see it as a different device, and you'll have to select it again on the list.)
DoP and DSD Direct are simply two different ways of encapsulating a DSD audio stream into USB data packets.
USB is a packet based data protocol... therefore any method of sending USB audio data via USB involves encapsulating that data into packets. ("DSD Direct" is not really qualitatively different than DoP... but it sounds cooler... and it does use bandwidth more efficiently.)
WASAPI is a Windows audio output option that bypasses several parts of the normal Windows audio signal path - including the internal mixer.
By default, both Windows and Apple computers re-sample ALL digital audio to a preset sample rate. So, for example, if you set Windows to "48k", then everything you play will play at 48k, being resampled if necessary. (This allows Windows to mix your music with the system beeps and boops... and play both from the same output at the same time.) Apple computers do the same thing - for the same reason.
WASAPI is a mode that bypasses this process and allows player programs to play each audio file at its native sample rate - without being resampled. (For some odd reason, even though Windows makes this available for player software to use, Windows internal applications do NOT use it.)
A similar capability exists in Apple computers - although the name is different - and it is generally just referred to as "bit-perfect playback". For the highest audio quality you always want to select one of the WASAPI options if it is available. (Re-sampling audio isn't always as big a deal as some audiophiles like to think... but it can sound bad... so is worth avoiding when possible.)
As has been mentioned.... DSD can be sent directly via HDMI... and our XMC-1, XMC-2, RMC-1, and RMC-1L do support this. However, while some "universal disc players" support it (notably the Oppos and some others), computers generally do not.
The circuitry in our XMC-2 and RMC-1 supports DoP (DSD over USB) up to the DSDx2 data rate. (There are currently some issues there but it will definitely be supported.) We do NOT currently plan to support "Direct DSD"... although we may decide to do so in the future. (Incidentally, Direct DSD requires those pesky ASIO drivers... )
I’m messing around with my PC and RMC-1 and I’m trying to understand how to set them up using MC JRiver 24. I see the setting under setup as USB but there’s an option for UAC2. I would strongly advocate using HDMI for JRiver or other HTPC output, using the standard WASAPI driver in JRiver's audio options (WASAPI uses direct PC hardware output and bypasses Windows audio processing without the sometimes troublesome issues that ASIO can cause) Set Jriver to Bitstream if you want the RMC-1 to show the original codec (DTS-HD MA etc) on the OSD and in order to use the RMC-1 DTS and Dolby upmixers for height / Atmos channels The only thing you can't do via HDMI from a PC is DSD direct (You can get some super expensive add-on cards where the HDMI processor enables DSD direct, but none of the usual graphics adapters - Intel, Nvidia or AMD do) A HTPC (And using JRiver Media Center or other software) can output DSD in a DOP carrier signal, but unfortunately the Emotiva processors don't decode DOP (Stereo or Multichannel possible over HDMI). Incidentally, USB audio that you mention CAN transmit Stereo DSD, but again this is not (yet) enabled in the XMC-2 or RMC-1 processors, although Keith has said it is being worked on) For me, I ripped all my SACD to .dff DSDIFF edit masters (Using a PS3) and a lot of these are multichannel so USB audio is never going to help me there. If you are going to use USB, definitely use the UAC2 option as it has higher bandwidth and both the RMC-1 and modern PC hardware supports it |
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Post by libranrabbit on May 20, 2020 15:23:59 GMT -5
Could we get more settings for volume on, i.e. -70db, 60 is just a tad too loud at 6am. Could we have a totally variable user setting?
Also, does anyone experience the displays roll across them intermittently? Not that they go off completely, but a roll from left to right, not very often.
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Post by PaulBe on May 20, 2020 19:41:25 GMT -5
Could we get more settings for volume on, i.e. -70db, 60 is just a tad too loud at 6am. Could we have a totally variable user setting? Also, does anyone experience the displays roll across them intermittently? Not that they go off completely, but a roll from left to right, not very often. My RMC-1L volume control goes from -96 to 0. I get good volume control from 6am to 6pm. Totally variable from morning till night. Making a change to go from -96 to +11 would be far out and get my spine tappin'. Ohm... Edit - geebo just let me know the volume control actually does go to +11. Far out! |
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Post by geebo on May 20, 2020 19:55:11 GMT -5
Could we get more settings for volume on, i.e. -70db, 60 is just a tad too loud at 6am. Could we have a totally variable user setting? Also, does anyone experience the displays roll across them intermittently? Not that they go off completely, but a roll from left to right, not very often. My RMC-1L volume control goes from -96 to 0. I get good volume control from 6am to 6pm. Totally variable from morning till night. Making a change to go from -96 to +11 would be far out and get my spine tappin'. Ohm... Uh, you do know that you can set the max volume of the RMC-1L to +11, right? |
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Post by PaulBe on May 20, 2020 20:20:04 GMT -5
My RMC-1L volume control goes from -96 to 0. I get good volume control from 6am to 6pm. Totally variable from morning till night. Making a change to go from -96 to +11 would be far out and get my spine tappin'. Ohm... Uh, you do know that you can set the max volume of the RMC-1L to +11, right? Ha! I just found out. Made my day. I was thinking Spinal Tap; the movie. I thought 0 was the limit. Now I can get permanent hearing damage even quicker than I thought. -23 is an average MAX volume setting for me with my system sensitivity, efficiency, and gain, and that is with amp sensitivities set for +14. 0 on the RMC-1L would give me permanent hearing damage in minutes. |
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Post by PaulBe on May 20, 2020 20:30:41 GMT -5
System has been sitting idle for the last hour. Just got another one second noise burst with spoken audio. Can only be radio station bleed through. Volume is set at -40. Noise burst was not too loud.
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Post by libranrabbit on May 20, 2020 22:34:42 GMT -5
Could we get more settings for volume on, i.e. -70db, 60 is just a tad too loud at 6am. Could we have a totally variable user setting? Also, does anyone experience the displays roll across them intermittently? Not that they go off completely, but a roll from left to right, not very often. My RMC-1L volume control goes from -96 to 0. I get good volume control from 6am to 6pm. Totally variable from morning till night. Making a change to go from -96 to +11 would be far out and get my spine tappin'. Ohm... Edit - geebo just let me know the volume control actually does go to +11. Far out! I was talking about the set volume for when the unit comes on. |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on May 20, 2020 23:06:21 GMT -5
Could we get more settings for volume on, i.e. -70db, 60 is just a tad too loud at 6am. Could we have a totally variable user setting? Also, does anyone experience the displays roll across them intermittently? Not that they go off completely, but a roll from left to right, not very often. You could always set it to "Last Used" and make sure when shutting down the night before to set the volume at your preferred turn-on level for 6am. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 21, 2020 0:49:35 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you mean by "the display rolls across"... although I do have a guess.
The OLED screens we use on our XMCs and RMCs have a sort of screen saver to protect them against the possibility of display burn-in...
As a result the display does move, in various directions, by just a few pixels, every now and then (I don't know exactly how often)... (But, when you catch that movement out of the corner of your eye, it can seem exaggerated, as if the display jumps.)
Could we get more settings for volume on, i.e. -70db, 60 is just a tad too loud at 6am. Could we have a totally variable user setting? Also, does anyone experience the displays roll across them intermittently? Not that they go off completely, but a roll from left to right, not very often. |
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Post by junchoon on May 21, 2020 6:06:09 GMT -5
I just want to elaborate a bit on UAC1, UAC2, and a few of the DSD options..... UAC1 is USB Audio Class 1 -
Up until a few years ago, MOST computers and other audio devices supported UAC1 directly, and had the drivers for it built in. This includes Windows and Apple computers, Android and Apple phones, and most audio players.
UAC1 is generally limited to supporting sample rates up to 24/96k... but everyone supports it.
UAC2 is USB Audio Class 2 - Some technicalities aside the main benefit of UAC2 is that it supports higher sample rates (usually up to 24/192k or 24/384k... or even above). Apple computers have included internal driver support for UAC2 for quite a few years. But Windows only started including internal support for it a few years after Windows 10 was released (in the Creators' Editions). Many modern Android phones also support UAC2 - but not all.
Before that, you had to install special drivers... which was a lot more trouble than not having to install special drivers.
One thing to be aware of is that, at the virtual level, a given device is either UAC1 or UAC2. (So, if you change your RMC-1 from UAC1 to UAC2, your player will see it as a different device, and you'll have to select it again on the list.)
DoP and DSD Direct are simply two different ways of encapsulating a DSD audio stream into USB data packets.
USB is a packet based data protocol... therefore any method of sending USB audio data via USB involves encapsulating that data into packets. ("DSD Direct" is not really qualitatively different than DoP... but it sounds cooler... and it does use bandwidth more efficiently.) WASAPI is a Windows audio output option that bypasses several parts of the normal Windows audio signal path - including the internal mixer.
By default, both Windows and Apple computers re-sample ALL digital audio to a preset sample rate. So, for example, if you set Windows to "48k", then everything you play will play at 48k, being resampled if necessary. (This allows Windows to mix your music with the system beeps and boops... and play both from the same output at the same time.) Apple computers do the same thing - for the same reason.
WASAPI is a mode that bypasses this process and allows player programs to play each audio file at its native sample rate - without being resampled. (For some odd reason, even though Windows makes this available for player software to use, Windows internal applications do NOT use it.)
A similar capability exists in Apple computers - although the name is different - and it is generally just referred to as "bit-perfect playback". For the highest audio quality you always want to select one of the WASAPI options if it is available. (Re-sampling audio isn't always as big a deal as some audiophiles like to think... but it can sound bad... so is worth avoiding when possible.)
As has been mentioned.... DSD can be sent directly via HDMI... and our XMC-1, XMC-2, RMC-1, and RMC-1L do support this. However, while some "universal disc players" support it (notably the Oppos and some others), computers generally do not. The circuitry in our XMC-2 and RMC-1 supports DoP (DSD over USB) up to the DSDx2 data rate. (There are currently some issues there but it will definitely be supported.) We do NOT currently plan to support "Direct DSD"... although we may decide to do so in the future. (Incidentally, Direct DSD requires those pesky ASIO drivers... )
I would strongly advocate using HDMI for JRiver or other HTPC output, using the standard WASAPI driver in JRiver's audio options (WASAPI uses direct PC hardware output and bypasses Windows audio processing without the sometimes troublesome issues that ASIO can cause) Set Jriver to Bitstream if you want the RMC-1 to show the original codec (DTS-HD MA etc) on the OSD and in order to use the RMC-1 DTS and Dolby upmixers for height / Atmos channels The only thing you can't do via HDMI from a PC is DSD direct (You can get some super expensive add-on cards where the HDMI processor enables DSD direct, but none of the usual graphics adapters - Intel, Nvidia or AMD do) A HTPC (And using JRiver Media Center or other software) can output DSD in a DOP carrier signal, but unfortunately the Emotiva processors don't decode DOP (Stereo or Multichannel possible over HDMI). Incidentally, USB audio that you mention CAN transmit Stereo DSD, but again this is not (yet) enabled in the XMC-2 or RMC-1 processors, although Keith has said it is being worked on) For me, I ripped all my SACD to .dff DSDIFF edit masters (Using a PS3) and a lot of these are multichannel so USB audio is never going to help me there. If you are going to use USB, definitely use the UAC2 option as it has higher bandwidth and both the RMC-1 and modern PC hardware supports it U mean none of the Emotiva processors support Native DSD? Thanks |
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Post by markc on May 21, 2020 6:16:33 GMT -5
Correct, via USB, which is what we are on topic with.
(Note that the XMC, RMC-1L and RMC-1 all support Native DSD over HDMI, including stereo and multichannel sources. This requires something like the Oppo BDP disc/DLNA/Media server devices or another SACD player or device that outputs Native DSD rather than DSD to PCM conversion. There is no current way to output native DSD from a PC over HDMI)
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