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Post by gentlejax on Dec 24, 2018 11:42:04 GMT -5
is that from the manual?
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Post by garbulky on Dec 24, 2018 17:28:17 GMT -5
I don’t know but it’s output isn’t limited to 1.2 v. Not if it’s meant for pro use. |
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Post by garbulky on Dec 24, 2018 17:30:33 GMT -5
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Post by gentlejax on Dec 24, 2018 18:14:46 GMT -5
I was talking about the amp when I said 1.2 volts needed. not the output of the dc-1. I dont know what the specs are on the dc-1
I did get my 2nd pt-100 in about 1 hr ago. its drastically better in the sound volume department. I hear music on it from volume less than 10. at 60 its pretty loud. havnt gone past that.
the dc-1 I went as far as 0.0 so it looks like if either are set at 20 less than max the pt is outputing more volume. more usable volume. and I am using rca to XLR cables. rca out from the pre to the xlr inputs on the amp.
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Post by garbulky on Dec 24, 2018 19:34:11 GMT -5
I was talking about the amp when I said 1.2 volts needed. not the output of the dc-1. I dont know what the specs are on the dc-1 I did get my 2nd pt-100 in about 1 hr ago. its drastically better in the sound volume department. I hear music on it from volume less than 10. at 60 its pretty loud. havnt gone past that. the dc-1 I went as far as 0.0 so it looks like if either are set at 20 less than max the pt is outputing more volume. more usable volume. and I am using rca to XLR cables. rca out from the pre to the xlr inputs on the amp. You are using RCA to XLR cables for the DC one Using its RCA output? I’m sorry if I might’ve misunderstood you But if that’s what you’re doing, use RCA to RCA cables or XLR to XLR cables instead for the DC one. Otherwise you will have low volume with your current cables |
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Post by gentlejax on Dec 25, 2018 8:49:06 GMT -5
I dont have the dc-1 with me. I already stated multiple times i sent it off already. I am using a pt100 right now while the dc-1 is out. I would never have run rca to xlr off the dc-1 when I have the right cables. out of curiosity I have it hooked up to the pt100 using my rca to xlr cables and the volume is not low. im going to run it straight rca to rca next to see how that works. but as it is now its still way ahead of the dc-1
just read the manual for the dc-1. it says nominal output @ 0.0 is 1volt. I looked at the higher end preamp. didnt even list a voltage
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Post by garbulky on Dec 25, 2018 11:37:23 GMT -5
I dont have the dc-1 with me. I already stated multiple times i sent it off already. I am using a pt100 right now while the dc-1 is out. I would never have run rca to xlr off the dc-1 when I have the right cables. out of curiosity I have it hooked up to the pt100 using my rca to xlr cables and the volume is not low. im going to run it straight rca to rca next to see how that works. but as it is now its still way ahead of the dc-1
just read the manual for the dc-1. it says nominal output @ 0.0 is 1volt. I looked at the higher end preamp. didnt even list a voltage
you know where on the dc1 manual? |
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Dec 26, 2018 12:11:01 GMT -5
I did not measure the voltage. dont know how to but if I did sure would have. I have listened to the dc-1 at all levels on the volume up to 0.0 where I was worried I might damage something. it wasnt loud but it is more than 3/4 volume. 0.0 is fine to listen to all day (and night) long on the DC-1. If you're listening to a "hot" recording of Firebird Suite at +20.0, you're likely going to ruin something (not just the DC-1). I am less than 10ft from the speakers if I am sitting down.
I dont sit there and blast the stereo that close but at times when I am working in the house I do turn it up so I can hear in other parts of the house. ive had more than a dozen preamps and AVR;s and processors and I have seen the difference in various volume controls. I know they are not all the same and the volume on one is going to be different on the other. but It really seems like this one has to really be near max. just want to know its normal. I believe the amp needs around 1.2 volts
It's normal. You can call Emotiva and have them tell you the same thing. But, it's fine. By way of comparison, the a-300 (formally the UPA-2) at 150 watts in my 2nd floor bedroom can be heard anywhere in my house with a vacuum cleaner running in the background. The SA-250 can be heard in the street (60 feet from the house) with the windows and doors closed. Your amp and the DC-1 should be able to be heard when you're working in the house. Don't be afraid of giving the volume knob a twist. |
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Post by gentlejax on Dec 27, 2018 9:42:55 GMT -5
im using a pt-100 while my dc-1 is getting screen serviced and the volume on it is louder sooner. granted its not the same. it goes from 0-80 .. at 60 its decently loud already. my speakers have sensitivity of 90 and handle up to 500 watts. right now its not too bad. dont know that I am going to change this when the dc-1 comes back.
I just looked at the manuals for some of the amps and they are varying. the a100 is .6 volts for rated power @8ohms. the a300 is 1.2volts the XPA-2 is 1.5volts the XPA-DR2 is 2.1
so all the amps are different. I find that odd.
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Post by garbulky on Dec 28, 2018 19:42:48 GMT -5
im using a pt-100 while my dc-1 is getting screen serviced and the volume on it is louder sooner. granted its not the same. it goes from 0-80 .. at 60 its decently loud already. my speakers have sensitivity of 90 and handle up to 500 watts. right now its not too bad. dont know that I am going to change this when the dc-1 comes back. I just looked at the manuals for some of the amps and they are varying. the a100 is .6 volts for rated power @8ohms. the a300 is 1.2volts the XPA-2 is 1.5volts the XPA-DR2 is 2.1 so all the amps are different. I find that odd.
Its because those amps are in order of increasing max power. It takes more power from the preamp to drive them to higher output levels. If it took the same power for higher watts then the gain would have to be different. Most of the gen 2 and gen 3 amps use 29 db gain. While the older gen 1 amps use 32 db gain |
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Post by gentlejax on Dec 29, 2018 12:42:58 GMT -5
I have had dozens of amps and no emotiva amps but most of them were about the same voltage input required to achieve full output regardless of the rated amp power. that was with 100 watt amps up to 300 watt amps. the only amps that ever needed more voltage were the ones that required 1.4 and they were pro audio amps.
so if you own a pre or a pre/pro and you change amps and the new amp needs more voltage you are telling me you must get a new pre/pro ?
I havent actually looked but maybe I will check on various amps and their required voltage. maybe i never noticed it but Im pretty sure the only time the needed increase was due to being pro amps and not regular home audio amps.
if you need 2.1 volts to get the full power out then you most certainly would have to max volume out on some preamps that have no bass/treble controls.
I also find it odd that emo doesnt list voltage output for the preamps. ive never seen that ommitted either. even vintage gear lists that.
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Post by garbulky on Dec 29, 2018 13:17:16 GMT -5
I have had dozens of amps and no emotiva amps but most of them were about the same voltage input required to achieve full output regardless of the rated amp power. that was with 100 watt amps up to 300 watt amps. the only amps that ever needed more voltage were the ones that required 1.4 and they were pro audio amps. so if you own a pre or a pre/pro and you change amps and the new amp needs more voltage you are telling me you must get a new pre/pro ? No not at all. Most pre-pros, at least the stereo preamps have plenty of power to drive even very powerful amps to max current or at least close to it. Back in the day some of the AV preamps may have maxed out at 1V instead of 2V. Because of that Emotiva's gen 1 amps used 32 db gain. The later gen 2 and 3 amps use the standard 29 db gain. I think what you are saying is that at the same volume level on the knob on your preamp different amps sounded equally loud right? That means the gain levels on those amps are close to each other. Has nothing to do with how much power is needed to drive it to the max. So for instance if you take a mini-x a-100 with 29 db gain and the XPA-1 gen 2 with 29 db gain. The XPA-1 can get quite a bit louder as it has a lot more power. However if you use the same preamp, you'll notice at the same position on the volume knob both amps are just as loud as each other. The difference is the XPA-1 can keep getting louder and louder past the point the A-100 gives out and clips when you get to high volumes. To have the same required drive voltage to full power between two vastly different powered amps you would need to change the gain level. So the higher powered amp would require a higher gain level to match the output. Increasing gain level adds noise, all else being equal. So there is a compromise to increasing gain levels especially if most preamps can already drive high power amps to their full capability. There are some rare amps that have low gain levels - like 14 db which require a more gain to reach max output especially if they are high power amps. But they are in the minority. Some amps like Emotiva SA-250 (discontinued) had a gain switch which switches between 29db gain and low gain 23 db. Several headphone amps also have this capability like the speaker/headphone amp Schiit Ragnarok which has switchable gain between 26db, 14db, and 1 db to adapt noise and drive levels to match very efficient IEMs, high impedance headphones, and power hungry planars headphones. Keep in mind though average listening level is at 1 to two watts of power though peaks will take more power. B'zilla and I used a Mcintosh stereo amp and played it loud in a large living room with relatively effiient speakers. We couldn't get the meter to budge past two watts. On normal listening levels (70db listening level) we couldn't get it to budge past 0.75 watts of power. |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Dec 29, 2018 14:14:19 GMT -5
I did not measure the voltage. dont know how to but if I did sure would have. For balanced audio on XLR connectors: pin 1 is the chassis ground (cable shield), pin 2 is the positive polarity terminal (hot), and pin 3 is the return terminal (cold). Use a multimeter and measure across pins 2 and 3 without touching 1 while playing a 1k sine wave at 0dB. If you want to download some test tones, try here. www.kicker.com/test-tones(also read up on gain matching while you are there. Useful for when you are using pro gear) |
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Post by gentlejax on Dec 29, 2018 14:38:51 GMT -5
all i know is the pt-100 is louder than the dc-1 that I sent off to have display worked on. the other preamps I had before I tried the pt-100 were old vintage yamaha or kenwood preamps. there was no way to max the volume on those without clipping. but at same time no problem getting full power out of the amps I tried. that includes the pro crown and others I was using.
i know digital volume is a different story than analogue but I am not understanding the differences in these emotiva pieces. its not the first preamp I have had with digital volume either but it seems the DC-1 was much easier to max out than anything Ive ever used. except it was cleaner up to that point.
cant find any info on max voltage output of any of the emo stuff.
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Post by garbulky on Dec 29, 2018 15:33:51 GMT -5
all i know is the pt-100 is louder than the dc-1 that I sent off to have display worked on. the other preamps I had before I tried the pt-100 were old vintage yamaha or kenwood preamps. there was no way to max the volume on those without clipping. but at same time no problem getting full power out of the amps I tried. that includes the pro crown and others I was using. i know digital volume is a different story than analogue but I am not understanding the differences in these emotiva pieces. its not the first preamp I have had with digital volume either but it seems the DC-1 was much easier to max out than anything Ive ever used. except it was cleaner up to that point. cant find any info on max voltage output of any of the emo stuff. Maybe Emotiva will test the DC-1 out and see if there's a problem. Interestingly your PT-100 manual says that its line level is 4 V RMS on page 22 which is a lot more than the more standard 2V RCA line level. Perhaps that's its max output. Maybe that's why the PT-100 sounds louder to you. The DC-1 puts out 2V at 0.00 which is a more standard line level output. But it can put out more than that as you go past 0.00. But....your DC-1 if it's working normally is still fully capable of driving your amps to max power. It'll just do it on a different position on the volume knob, likely a higher position than 0.00 |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 29, 2018 16:45:20 GMT -5
If I recall correctly you are using XLR balanced connections with the DC-1 but with the PT-100 (which doesn't have XLR balanced outputs) you are using RCA to XLR converter cables. If that's the case then voltage comparisons (hence volume comparisons) are meaningless. The output from the balanced (XLR) outputs on the DC-1 will be around +4.8 and -4.8 volts whereas the output from the RCA on the PT-100 will be around 2.0 volts. At the XLR Balanced input of the power amp there will be discrete circuitry that uses the + and - inputs to eliminate any introduced noise, which is the purpose of XLR balanced cables and the supporting circuitry. This will be utilised for the DC-1, but not the PT-100 with RCA connections since it has only 1 input. As a result I would expect some differences in the power amp output, the single ended source will be processed through the circuitry entirely differently to what the double ended (Balanced) source will be. A good chance that they will affect the volume output, maybe up or maybe down.
Tip, not all XLR balanced inputs and outputs are wired the same. There are 2 different ways of wiring balanced inputs/outputs, commonly called the European (the original) and the American (AES Industry Standard). The American standard is commonly called "pin-2 hot" whereas the European standard has pins 2 and 3 reversed. Some manufacturers, especially in vintage equipment, follow the original (European) standard. As a result you should check the wiring standards used in the 2 connected pieces of gear. The DC-1 is American standard but you need to confirm the power amp's standard. There is XLR Balanced cable available that flips the wiring, so if the power amp is wired to the European standard a simple cable swap will fix that.
Happy New Year
Gary
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Post by gentlejax on Dec 30, 2018 12:34:20 GMT -5
Gary I did try the XLR to RCA cables cause I had them. and then I went to just RCA to RCA cables and there was no difference in output. none. where do you get the "2.0 volts from"? its not in the manual is it
the amp is not a vintage amp. its a fairly new Wyred4sound class D amp.
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 30, 2018 17:09:33 GMT -5
Gary I did try the XLR to RCA cables cause I had them. and then I went to just RCA to RCA cables and there was no difference in output. none. where do you get the "2.0 volts from"? its not in the manual is it the amp is not a vintage amp. its a fairly new Wyred4sound class D amp. I'm not overly familiar with W4W Class D amps but if I remember correctly many are discrete with dual differential circuitry. As a result XLR (to XLR) connections would be the best way to connect to the DC-1. I'd avoid RCA's. Did you DIY the W4W or have it made for you? Either way I'd suggest checking the XLR connections wiring orientation. Still on the W4W amp, I also recall that they have some models with lower gain, around 27 db that also require 2.1 volts input for maximum volume. So it may be worthwhile checking the specs of your exact model. I did notice in the PT-100 manual that it quotes 4 volts maximum output, which I assumed meant 2 channels at 2 volts each (which is industry standard). But maybe it doesn't, maybe the PT-100 actually outputs 2 channels at 4 volts each. This would explain the volume difference to the DC-1. The above aside, I've run out of suggestions on isolating some obscure reason for lower volume out of your DC-1. If Emotiva don't find a problem with the output of yours then it must be one (or more) of the above. Happy New Year Gary |
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Post by gentlejax on Dec 31, 2018 7:06:18 GMT -5
thanks for the advice and input.
the w4s amp I am running requires 1.2volts . my dc-1 is being checked out now so soon I will find out but as it is the pt-100 works better for me than the dc-1 even though I could just raise the volume lol.
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