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Post by hsamwel on Sept 1, 2019 13:17:24 GMT -5
"I think the simple answer is that the DR-2 would be superior to two HC-1s due to its fully balanced design and greater power (though it can’t sit next to both speakers like mono-blocks). However I’d give the edge to the HC-1 over any equivalent number of XPA Gen 3 channels, due to the separate, more robust power supplies. This is all on paper, I’ve never heard the HC-1 or the DRs for that matter." I bet these will sound great ! Individual power supplies will add a level of punch and separation over a XPA amp. Yes, I guess they sound great both of them. There is also only a small difference in price between buying two HC-1’s vs buying a DR-2. So unless you need the small chassie DR-2 is the better buy. What I actually would like to know is if there’s an actual difference in real life listening between them. I would guess both give massive control of the speaker. The lighter the load would benefit DR with its dual channel load to the PS. |
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Post by suigeneris28 on Dec 3, 2019 2:07:01 GMT -5
I'm guessing the meaning for "HC" in "HC-1" is High Current. I tried to look for what are Peak Current and Continuous Current specs on the site but can't seem to find them. Does anybody know what these may be?
I use entry level Maggies (MMG) experimenting with different amps over the years (i.e. B&K EX442 Sonata Series, Monarchy Audio SE-100 monoblocks, White Audio Labs A-50, Parasond Halo A51, Adcom Integrated 225). It wasn't until I purchased a 2nd hand Parasond Halo A51 that I realized that Maggies can actually be dynamic. I then read some comments from Magnepan that their speakers generally require Class A/AB with high current capabilities to sing. The Parasound Halo A51 is a beast, 250 watt/ch but more importantly, can output 60 amps peak per channel.
I've long since sold that amp (now very regretfully) when I migrated back to the Philippines (can't lug around a 100 lb amp on the plane as much as I would like to, hehe), and have been looking for an amp to replace it ever since. Hoping these HC-1's can do the trick.
Any help to get specs much appreciated!!
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Dec 3, 2019 12:58:09 GMT -5
Yes... the "HC" refers to "high current" - which means that the HC-1 is capable of delivering plenty of current - if the load requires it.
However, we do not specify a "maximum current rating" for any of our amps, and for a very simple reason.... The amount of current that a load requires depends solely on the music signal and the impedance of the load. There is no benefit whatsoever in having an amplifier that can deliver more current than the current required to drive the load. (Likewise, a 120 watt light bulb will draw the exact same amount of current, whether you connect it to a 120 VAC 15 amp circuit or a 120 VAC 50 amp circuit, and will light equally brightly.)
If an amplifier is unable to deliver sufficient current to drive the load, then it will distort at high volume levels. And, if the amplifier is able to drive a given load properly, with low distortion, at high volume levels, then it is able to deliver enough current. At that point, other than "bragging rights", you gain nothing by over-designing an amplifier to be able to deliver more current than you will ever need. (So far we have not encountered a speaker which the HC-1 was unable to drive quite well.)
And, just for the record... - Maggies are relatively inefficient, and so require a relatively powerful amplifier to drive them well, especially if you want them to play at all loudly... - However, they are NOT an especially difficult load to drive, and are in fact an almost pure resistive load, slightly below 3 Ohms at the lowest, which is relatively easy to drive (if you have enough power)... I'm guessing the meaning for "HC" in "HC-1" is High Current. I tried to look for what are Peak Current and Continuous Current specs on the site but can't seem to find them. Does anybody know what these may be? I use entry level Maggies (MMG) experimenting with different amps over the years (i.e. B&K EX442 Sonata Series, Monarchy Audio SE-100 monoblocks, White Audio Labs A-50, Parasond Halo A51, Adcom Integrated 225). It wasn't until I purchased a 2nd hand Parasond Halo A51 that I realized that Maggies can actually be dynamic. I then read some comments from Magnepan that their speakers generally require Class A/AB with high current capabilities to sing. The Parasound Halo A51 is a beast, 250 watt/ch but more importantly, can output 60 amps peak per channel. I've long since sold that amp (now very regretfully) when I migrated back to the Philippines (can't lug around a 100 lb amp on the plane as much as I would like to, hehe), and have been looking for an amp to replace it ever since. Hoping these HC-1's can do the trick. Any help to get specs much appreciated!! |
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Post by leonski on Dec 3, 2019 13:45:38 GMT -5
FINALLY, some maggie sense. They will work with nearly ANY amp capable of decent 4 ohm performance into a modest load. By modest? Low reactance. Sure, they ARE low sensitivity, but really have few excursions which demand a lot from an amp. I drove some with a 60x2@8 integrated many years ago. (80 into 4ohms) The new LRS model benefits from 'better watts' but ......well Read what Stereophile had to say www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-lrs-loudspeaker-0I'm personally thinking in a new direction. Within the next week and hopefully before the Holidays, I'll go up to a KLIPSCH Heritage dealer in LA. There I can listen to the ForteIII model. Bigish FloorStander with a 12" woofer and 15" passive radiator on the BACK. Typical but substantially upgraded HORN mid and tweet round out package and yield a stereophile measured 95db sensitivity. NO benefit at all to huge power numbers. 20 clean watts will get you kicked out of the county while Tube guys are talking SET or even 'flea power'. I'd say the diminishing returns might be aorund the 5 to 10 watt region. SPACE DEPENDENT. Have I found a mission for the AmpCampAmp? I can hardly wait for my audition to see what the store has for partnering electronics. Hopefully, some good SS and not just a selection of tube gear. |
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Post by tropicallutefisk on Dec 3, 2019 14:06:31 GMT -5
FINALLY, some maggie sense. They will work with nearly ANY amp capable of decent 4 ohm performance into a modest load. By modest? Low reactance. Sure, they ARE low sensitivity, but really have few excursions which demand a lot from an amp. I drove some with a 60x2@8 integrated many years ago. (80 into 4ohms) The new LRS model benefits from 'better watts' but ......well Read what Stereophile had to say www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-lrs-loudspeaker-0I'm personally thinking in a new direction. Within the next week and hopefully before the Holidays, I'll go up to a KLIPSCH Heritage dealer in LA. There I can listen to the ForteIII model. Bigish FloorStander with a 12" woofer and 15" passive radiator on the BACK. Typical but substantially upgraded HORN mid and tweet round out package and yield a stereophile measured 95db sensitivity. NO benefit at all to huge power numbers. 20 clean watts will get you kicked out of the county while Tube guys are talking SET or even 'flea power'. I'd say the diminishing returns might be aorund the 5 to 10 watt region. SPACE DEPENDENT. Have I found a mission for the AmpCampAmp? I can hardly wait for my audition to see what the store has for partnering electronics. Hopefully, some good SS and not just a selection of tube gear. I tried to drive 3.7is with 150 WPC from a McIntosh amp and was sorely disappointed. The DR1s brought them to life and made them sound like an entirely different speaker. Not saying some other lower wattage amps couldn't have done the job, but I would err on the side of bigger is better if you can. |
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Post by Talley on Dec 3, 2019 14:30:43 GMT -5
Well both are fully balanced. The difference being dual vs quad differential I guess, whatever difference that might make. What impresses me is the power you get in 4 ohm and probably also in 2 ohm due to having its own PS. There you can see the difference with DR, the 550W you get with 2ch in 8 ohm don’t become 1100W in 4 ohm. Actually 600W vs 800W in 4 ohm.. What happens in 2 ohm? It seems the more difficult speaker you have to drive the better it seems to be to have its own PS. But maybe better S/N and THD with DR I guess. They should release a HC-1DR with a Dual module.. 650W in 8ohm with 1200-1300W in 4ohm would be amazing.. I may actually have to call my electrician to make it work  The HC-1 only has a balanced input, like all of the XPA G3's, I don't think it's correct to call it fully balanced. Edit: But yes, the HC-1 doubles it’s power into 4 ohms, so ‘High Current’ is available! How is a mono amp not "fully balanced". It's a darn mono amp lol |
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Post by leonski on Dec 3, 2019 14:41:57 GMT -5
I don't know why, but Mac amps are not the first amp that occurs to most Panel owners.
Even Bryston has its detractors.
Several other choices are ahead of Mac, and can be more or even less $$$.
Balanced? MIGHT make a difference if the entire signal chain were balanced. Switching back and forth from single ended has potential consequences.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Dec 3, 2019 17:57:27 GMT -5
The HC-1 only has a balanced input, like all of the XPA G3's, I don't think it's correct to call it fully balanced. Edit: But yes, the HC-1 doubles it’s power into 4 ohms, so ‘High Current’ is available! How is a mono amp not "fully balanced". It's a darn mono amp lol Because it’s not a balanced design from input to output, what’s generally called “fully balanced”, though there are other names. The HC-1 only has balanced inputs. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 3, 2019 19:13:12 GMT -5
I think a DC-1 would make a nice sub woofer amp.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by leonski on Dec 3, 2019 21:42:52 GMT -5
Balanced in puts for the HC-1 probably means a single ended / balanced conversion. Same as my Parasounds and the outputs of my DAC, which are 'you choose' balanced or single ended.
As for Watts for Maggies? Better watts......not necessarily MORE watts. I'd be tempted to 'downgrade' to the 3.6 or 20.1 level in order to be able to more easily blamp....
You 'd be gobsmacked with a D'Agostino amp or a pair of pass XA100.5 The last? Has over 4db over the rating before you get into any real distortion. That's 250 watts......nice.
Before D'Agoostino? His earlies efforts are KRELL, maybe you've heard of them?
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Post by suigeneris28 on Dec 3, 2019 22:32:29 GMT -5
Thanks to @kiethl and fellow Maggie owners for the responses!!
In the end, until you have the actual amp plugged into your home system, you'll never really know. I do appreciate the comments regarding not publishing numbers (i.e. peak current / continuous current) when it's difficult to set them to a standard but I believe we have to have some way to narrow down the infinite list of amps you want to look at somehow. Also, and I'm not tech guy (just an enthusiastic enthusiast) but reading online plus personal experience leads me to believe that for Maggies, a high current design is kind of a minimum if you want to make them sing and without anything to reference them by (i.e. specs), how can you really tell? Magnepan says if output is doubled from 8ohms to 4ohms, it's indicative of a good minimum requirement for a good match. I guess it's all we have to go by ( and these forums, of course! )
Nevertheless the HC-1's have piqued enough interest for me that I'm going to the Local Philippine Dealer to see if I can borrow a pair to try (the only real way to know). Much thanks to everyone for all the info and help!!
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Post by AudioHTIT on Dec 3, 2019 23:02:35 GMT -5
I'd be tempted to 'downgrade' to the 3.6 or 20.1 level in order to be able to more easily blamp....? I think I’ve been ‘dissed, but your post is too fragmented, downgrade from what? |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Dec 3, 2019 23:12:08 GMT -5
Thanks to @kiethl and fellow Maggie owners for the responses!! In the end, until you have the actual amp plugged into your home system, you'll never really know. I do appreciate the comments regarding not publishing numbers (i.e. peak current / continuous current) when it's difficult to set them to a standard but I believe we have to have some way to narrow down the infinite list of amps you want to look at somehow. Also, and I'm not tech guy (just an enthusiastic enthusiast) but reading online plus personal experience leads me to believe that for Maggies, a high current design is kind of a minimum if you want to make them sing and without anything to reference them by (i.e. specs), how can you really tell? Magnepan says if output is doubled from 8ohms to 4ohms, it's indicative of a good minimum requirement for a good match. I guess it's all we have to go by ( and these forums, of course! ) Nevertheless the HC-1's have piqued enough interest for me that I'm going to the Local Philippine Dealer to see if I can borrow a pair to try (the only real way to know). Much thanks to everyone for all the info and help!! Might want to throw a couple PA-1’s in your pocket and try them too. |
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Post by leonski on Dec 3, 2019 23:41:26 GMT -5
Thanks to @kiethl and fellow Maggie owners for the responses!! In the end, until you have the actual amp plugged into your home system, you'll never really know. I do appreciate the comments regarding not publishing numbers (i.e. peak current / continuous current) when it's difficult to set them to a standard but I believe we have to have some way to narrow down the infinite list of amps you want to look at somehow. Also, and I'm not tech guy (just an enthusiastic enthusiast) but reading online plus personal experience leads me to believe that for Maggies, a high current design is kind of a minimum if you want to make them sing and without anything to reference them by (i.e. specs), how can you really tell? Magnepan says if output is doubled from 8ohms to 4ohms, it's indicative of a good minimum requirement for a good match. I guess it's all we have to go by ( and these forums, of course! ) Nevertheless the HC-1's have piqued enough interest for me that I'm going to the Local Philippine Dealer to see if I can borrow a pair to try (the only real way to know). Much thanks to everyone for all the info and help!! You got ONE thing VERY right. Only way to know is to try 'em on YOUR system in your own home. Keep in mind, however, that psychologically, LOUDER tends to sound better. One thing done in proper equipment comparisons is what's called 'level match' where the output is jiggered to be the same for each amp or source or preamp or WHATEVER is being compared. Not to be confused with the third rail of hi-fidelity which is the double blind test. Magnepan makes a small deal of the myth of 'double up'. It's a 2-parter. Measurements in a lab. And what the Marketing Guy writes. You can DERATE an honest amp which puts out 125@8 and 225@4 to be a double. Other amps follow a similar pattern. Even Pass Labs, which NOBODY ever called 'wimpy' or has much bad to say, doesn't double up. I would instead worry about sufficient 4ohm power. Your panels might like a Parasound A21 or the new model. You might also make do with a pre-loved Pass Labs amp from the XA.5 series which are now being sold since the new X.8 series are now the current model. And finally? If you go the Mondo Mono route? Make sure you have enough power at your house for 'em. You might consider another circuit of 20amps for the pair. That's at 120v, not 220, which you might have. You should consult an electrician for a possible upgrade to your power. |
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Post by suigeneris28 on Dec 4, 2019 0:46:35 GMT -5
AudioHTIT: I test drove a Rogue Sphinx once as I was curious about Class D, and this Rogue also has a tube preamp. I was comparing it at the time with the Integrated I'm using now which is an Anthem Integrated 225. There were 2 things that ultimately made me decide on the Anthem: the Rogue preamp section had really bad crosstalk (of all things!), at least for me. I was switching sources and was wondering why the music I was listening to had a weird bass line, only to find out when I paused the music that I was actually hearing the music playing on the other source. Also, the phone preamp is really noisy compared with the Anthem, but it was moot since I ended up getting outboard phone preamp anyway. As for Class D vs traditional Class AB, I found the Anthem sounding a bit more analog to me than the Rogue (and the Rogue had a Tubed Preamp!), and better boogie. The Rogue was smooth though, but maybe a bit too smooth for me ( Maggie also being smooth maybe too good of a thing? ). For my system matching, I didn't prefer it to the Anthem as it made things a bit bland for the type of music I was listening to. Might work out better in other systems I bet. leonski: I agree with your point that measurements aren't everything, and especially true with Maggie's as traditional measurements are not key to good match. A local dealer here of audio gear who owns a Maggie 1.6QR swears by using Rega electronics he is using (forgot which one) and those aren't exactly amps that we think of as high current and muscular. There is also another dealer here that is highly recommending the Hegel H90 as a pretty good match for Maggies even if low powered (60 watt). However, the interesting thing about that Hegel is their philosophy of extremely high damping factor (> 4000!!) vs traditional amps. No idea the science or physics behind it but quite interesting. I might try borrowing a unit as well to satisfy my curiosity. Anyways, will be trying the HC-1's for sure (only because no local Parasound dealers here, otherwise I would most likely get an A21, although I saw leonski seems to have a pair of A23's powering his MG1.6qr? If only they are available here haha). Will post an update once I visit the dealer. Thanks to all again!! Cheers!
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Post by leonski on Dec 4, 2019 2:43:34 GMT -5
I decided on the Parasound nearly instantly upon audition. Just effortless. I have ONE amp per panel, and pulled the biamp jumpers. This is NOT an option on the X.7 series panels or presumabely the LRS which is only 650$ but gets terrific reviews from all.
I HAD a 'D' integrated years ago. A PSAudio GCC series with B&O ASP modules. Newer modules may or may not actually sound better or just be 'newer'.
One other minor thing to consider with Maggies. A SUB. Properly done, it will relieve the panel of the lowest 1/2 octave and if my setup is any guide, increase the stage width and imaging ability.
I don't know that damping factor has much to do with Maggies. They store very little energy. And as it turns out? Are very highly regarded with a number of different amps, Tube AND Solid State. Tube gear traditionally has a rather high output impedance
which after doing the math results in a very low DF. Frequently under 5.
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Timster
Sensei
Posting from Scarsdale, Vic, Australia
Posts: 140
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Post by Timster on Dec 4, 2019 4:08:58 GMT -5
FINALLY, some maggie sense. They will work with nearly ANY amp capable of decent 4 ohm performance into a modest load. By modest? Low reactance. Sure, they ARE low sensitivity, but really have few excursions which demand a lot from an amp. I drove some with a 60x2@8 integrated many years ago. (80 into 4ohms) The new LRS model benefits from 'better watts' but ......well Read what Stereophile had to say www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-lrs-loudspeaker-0I'm personally thinking in a new direction. Within the next week and hopefully before the Holidays, I'll go up to a KLIPSCH Heritage dealer in LA. There I can listen to the ForteIII model. Bigish FloorStander with a 12" woofer and 15" passive radiator on the BACK. Typical but substantially upgraded HORN mid and tweet round out package and yield a stereophile measured 95db sensitivity. NO benefit at all to huge power numbers. 20 clean watts will get you kicked out of the county while Tube guys are talking SET or even 'flea power'. I'd say the diminishing returns might be aorund the 5 to 10 watt region. SPACE DEPENDENT. Have I found a mission for the AmpCampAmp? I can hardly wait for my audition to see what the store has for partnering electronics. Hopefully, some good SS and not just a selection of tube gear. I listened to the Forte, Cornwall and LaScala at the Manila Audio Show a week or so back. Loved them all, and I think you'll be impressed. Give them some space to breathe and a little time for your hearing to settle as they initially sound very forward, but once YOU have adjusted to them they are really very good. And yes, 20 watts will blow you away! I'm a Tannoy fan, and heard the Tannoy Prestige GRF too, at the show. Stunning! But way more $$ than the Klipsch. |
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Post by Talley on Dec 4, 2019 7:43:28 GMT -5
Balanced in puts for the HC-1 probably means a single ended / balanced conversion. Same as my Parasounds and the outputs of my DAC, which are 'you choose' balanced or single ended. As for Watts for Maggies? Better watts......not necessarily MORE watts. I'd be tempted to 'downgrade' to the 3.6 or 20.1 level in order to be able to more easily blamp.... You 'd be gobsmacked with a D'Agostino amp or a pair of pass XA100.5 The last? Has over 4db over the rating before you get into any real distortion. That's 250 watts......nice. Before D'Agoostino? His earlies efforts are KRELL, maybe you've heard of them? Very familiar with Krell and also own a Krell showcase 7 and have had a set of FPB250mc monoblocks also. Beautiful amps. My showcase 7 was recently recapped and is for sale. |
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Post by repeetavx on Dec 4, 2019 11:15:56 GMT -5
The HC-1 only has a balanced input, like all of the XPA G3's, I don't think it's correct to call it fully balanced. Edit: But yes, the HC-1 doubles it’s power into 4 ohms, so ‘High Current’ is available! How is a mono amp not "fully balanced". It's a darn mono amp lol + part of balanced signal in cable - pre amp stage - power anp stage of + signal \ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > speaker wire to speaker - part of balanced signal in cable - pre amp stage - power amp stage of - signal / Unbalanced mono block amp or one channel of unbalanced stereo amp+ part of balanced signal in cable\ --------------------------------- >differential amp - pre amp stage - power amp stage > speaker wire to speaker - part of balanced signal in cable/ A balanced monoblock amp is a dual channel amp with joining of the balanced signals at the speaker output end of the amp. An unbalanced monoblock amp is a single channel amp with joining of the balanced signal at the input end of the amp.
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Post by garbulky on Dec 4, 2019 16:52:56 GMT -5
The HC-1 only has a balanced input, like all of the XPA G3's, I don't think it's correct to call it fully balanced. Edit: But yes, the HC-1 doubles it’s power into 4 ohms, so ‘High Current’ is available! How is a mono amp not "fully balanced". It's a darn mono amp lol Even if it has an XLR input, it is not fully balanced - it is only differential on the inputs. A fully balanced amp is also differential on the amp stages - meaning that there are two amps in there. Emotiva's code word for that is "quad-differential". Fully balanced requires nearly twice the circuitry so it is expensive to do. Also....a fully balanced monoblock amp sees the speaker load at half the impedance. So if it's driving a 4 ohm speaker, it's actually seeing a 2 ohm load (!!). If it drops to 2 ohms, it is seeing a 1 ohm load! What that means is that a proper fully balanced monoblock would be optimized to be able to run stable at very low impedances. The XPA-1 gen 1 and 2 are able to drive not just 4 ohm speakers but also (unoficially) 2 ohm speakers. This means it is seeing a 1 ohm load when driving a 2 ohm speaker and it is built hardy enough to handle it. A good example of a fully balanced monoblock amp that is NOT optimized for monoblock balanced operation is the Schiit Vidar. Hence it is ONLY rated for 8 ohm loads in monoblock configuration. Emotiva amps that are fully balanced are XPA-1 gen 1 and 2, XPA-1L gen 1 and 2, XPR-1, all models of the XPA gen 3 DR series (DR series only). Emotiva PA-1. Things that look fully balanced but are not are: The Emotiva UPA-1, The XPA gen 3 amp with one channel. The XPA HC-1. |
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