Any advantage to Atmos on a system without ceiling speakers?

[wilburthegoose]

Are there any advantages to using Atmos over a traditional 7.1 system if there are no plans to install ceiling speakers?

[Gary Cook]

Yes and no, some Atmos sound tracks are better mixed than their equivalent Dolby True HD sound track (also included on the disk), some aren’t, but so far I have only heard a couple. All the DTS-X sound tracks that I have heard so far have been mixed better than the DTS HDMA sound tracks (also included on the disk). The big advantage of utilising DTS-X is that the dialogue can be adjusted, which is better than the simplistic “centre” channel.

When we were playing around testing various speaker layouts for the 2 x 5.1.2 set ups I’ve helped friends with, the Atmos/DTS-X sound tracks sounded better using 5.1 (no ceiling speakers) than their equivalent, non object based sound tracks. They were more distinct/precise in their sound locations, even the ceiling effects (mixed down into the floor locations) were clearer. That could be the mixing, an effect of the object basing itself or simply that the processor chip does better with Atmos/DTS-X input, I can’t say why, just that it is.

My lounge room has cathedral ceilings, exposed beams, big angles, very high and with no space above the inner lining, so ceiling speakers are going to be a challenge. But, after real experiences, I think the end result at 5.1.2 is worth the effort.


Cheers
Gary

[DLAW]

Jan 11, 2019 17:04:49 GMT -5 wilburthegoose said:

Are there any advantages to using Atmos over a traditional 7.1 system if there are no plans to install ceiling speakers?

If your processor/receiver gives you the option to use Atmos with the base 7.1 speaker layout then yes the Atmos track is better...especially with the LFE...that was my experience on Batman Vs Superman Bluray. I was able to have Atmos decoded on base 5.1 setup in my living room on a Marantz 7702 mk1 and the mk2 without height/ceiling speakers enabled. However, on my Denon 4400h it will only decode in Atmos if I give the speaker layout at least one pair of height/ceiling speakers enabled. The issue with leaving it this way....tricking the receiver/processor into thinking you have a pair of heights....you will have a void in surround effects that would need to come out the surrounds since you would not have height/ceiling speakers. DTS-X does not have this issue/limitation as it does not require height/ceiling speakers to decode and will not downgrade to DTS-Master Audio when using only 5.1 or 7.1.

[mgbpuff]

If your ceiling is flat, you can of course use upfiring enhanced for Atmos speakers.

[musicfan]

So much misinformation in this thread.

[mgbpuff]

Jan 15, 2019 9:40:11 GMT -5 musicfan said:

So much misinformation in this thread.

So why don't you help out?

[musicfan]

Jan 15, 2019 9:43:58 GMT -5 mgbpuff said:

Jan 15, 2019 9:40:11 GMT -5 musicfan said:

So much misinformation in this thread.

So why don't you help out?

I didnt originally because  when I correct it...Gary will claim he has tried every scenario with a 20K$ processor with movies that arent even atmos....and say he is right i am wrong...when its very easy to answer the question with a google search.

so here goes an abbreviated version

ATmos comes from metadata in DOLBY trueHD 7.1  if you dont have a avr (or even if you do but have it configured NOT to have ceiling speakers) you will ONLY get the bed channels of the 7.1 mix.  the height objects are ignored and not reproduced into the surround channels.  this is no different in DTS-X....it is polayed as 7.1 DTS-HD.

yes it MAY sound better than a non atmos recording...but that is merely coincidence...maybe the mixer did a better job on this specific track...there are a few instances where the 7.1 track is mixed superior to the atmos of the sam (Oblivion is one example)  its just the mixes done with ATMOS metadat in the trueHD mix are just mixed better than some of those with no ATMOS metadata

[mgbpuff]

Jan 15, 2019 9:50:54 GMT -5 musicfan said:

Jan 15, 2019 9:43:58 GMT -5 mgbpuff said:

So why don't you help out?

I didnt originally because  when I correct it...Gary will claim he has tried every scenario with a 20K$ processor with movies that arent even atmos....and say he is right i am wrong...when its very easy to answer the question with a google search.

so here goes an abbreviated version

ATmos comes from metadata in DOLBY trueHD 7.1  if you dont have a avr (or even if you do but have it configured NOT to have ceiling speakers) you will ONLY get the bed channels of the 7.1 mix.  the height objects are ignored and not reproduced into the surround channels.  this is no different in DTS-X....it is polayed as 7.1 DTS-HD.

yes it MAY sound better than a non atmos recording...but that is merely coincidence...maybe the mixer did a better job on this specific track...there are a few instances where the 7.1 track is mixed superior to the atmos of the sam (Oblivion is one example)  its just the mixes done with ATMOS metadat in the trueHD mix are just mixed better than some of those with no ATMOS metadata

I agree with what you are saying with two minor differences. Dolby Atmos is metadated into Dolby Digital + for streaming purposes in Netflix and other streaming services. If you play only the base codec, all of the sounds are there. Dolby Atmos pulls object sounds out of the base codec and gives them metadata positional information.

[KeithL]

Your abbreviated version is both mostly right and somewhat misleading.

It is correct in that, if you play a Dolby Atmos disc through equipment that doesn't support Atmos, then the Atmos metadata will simply be ignored, and the disc will play in TrueHD.

However, saying that "you will only get the bed channels" is somewhat misleading - because it falsely implies that sounds assigned to Atmos objects will simply be discarded..

It is true in that the disc will play exactly the same as if it was a TrueHD disc.

But, when that happens, sounds that are assigned to objects in the Atmos mix will not "just not ignored"; they will end up being mixed into the regular channels. 

It's an oversimplification....

But the basic idea is that Atmos metadata results in certain sounds "being pulled out of the regular channels and handled as objects".

Therefore, when not processed as Atmos, the TrueHD mix already contains ALL the audio content, including what ends up as objects when it's processed as Atmos.

So, rather than say "you get only the bed channels".......

It is more correct to say that "the entire mix plays as TrueHD, without being separated into bed channels and objects".

(However, when played without the Atmos metadata, a given sound may end up in a different place, or at a lower volume, which may make it audibly less prominent.)

Now, totally aside from that, we may hope that the Amtos mix is also simply a better sounding mix.

However, if you're familiar with the technology, you'll realize that it's also possible for the recording engineer to turn a good sounding stereo mix into a poor sounding Atmos mix.

It's also worth noting that, when starting with an old movie, which wasn't mastered for Atmos, re-mixing that sound track to take full advantage of Atmos is going to be VERY labor intensive.

And, aside from all that, the way an Atmos-capable AVR or processor handles NON-ATMOS content may also be quite different.

Prior to Atmos, most recent processors offered the option of synthesizing surround sound from stereo content using Dolby PLIIx or DTS Neo:6 (either of which could be used with any content).

On Atmos enabled equipment, PLIIx has been omitted, and has been replaced with the more advanced Dolby Surround Upsampler (DSU).

However, there are some differences in how the DSU works.

For one thing, content that originates in a Dolby format can ONLY be upsampled with the DSU or a manufacturer's proprietary upsampler.

The Dolby Surround Upsampler MAY NOT be used on DTS content, and the DTS Neural:X upsampler MAY NOT be used on Dolby content.

A manufacturer's proprietary upsampler MAY be used with either type of content, and either the DSU or DTS Neural:X MAY be used with audio that originates as neither Dolby nor DTS content.

(This is due to a recent change in the Dolby licensing requirements.)

It's also worth noting that Dolby considers that Atmos content should be decoded solely using Atmos.

Therefore, as a generalization, you aren't going to be able to separately apply the DSU to content that has already been decoded by the Atmos decoder.

(Unlike the case with TrueHD and PLIIx, you are not expected to use the DSU to synthesize extra channels for content that has already been decoded using an Atmos decoder.)

In short, if you play an Atmos disc on equipment that supports Dolby TrueHD, but not Atmos, it will simply play in plain old TrueHD;,nothing will be "lost" or "discarded" and it should sound good.

However, under certain circumstances, a given Atmos disc may in fact sound different when played on an Atmos system than on a TrueHD system, even with only 5.1 or 7.1 speakers.

It's also worth noting that Dolby has made recent changes to their license (in late 2018).

For example, as I mentioned above, on current equipment, you may not use the DTS Neural:X upsampler on Dolby Digital content.

However, because that is a new restriction, which limits the options licensed vendors are permitted to offer, it doesn't apply to most equipment purchased last year.

(Although, if your legacy equipment gets a firmware update, you may see changes in the available options after you install it.)

Jan 15, 2019 9:50:54 GMT -5 musicfan said:

Jan 15, 2019 9:43:58 GMT -5 mgbpuff said:

So why don't you help out?

I didnt originally because  when I correct it...Gary will claim he has tried every scenario with a 20K$ processor with movies that arent even atmos....and say he is right i am wrong...when its very easy to answer the question with a google search.

so here goes an abbreviated version

ATmos comes from metadata in DOLBY trueHD 7.1  if you dont have a avr (or even if you do but have it configured NOT to have ceiling speakers) you will ONLY get the bed channels of the 7.1 mix.  the height objects are ignored and not reproduced into the surround channels.  this is no different in DTS-X....it is polayed as 7.1 DTS-HD.

yes it MAY sound better than a non atmos recording...but that is merely coincidence...maybe the mixer did a better job on this specific track...there are a few instances where the 7.1 track is mixed superior to the atmos of the sam (Oblivion is one example)  its just the mixes done with ATMOS metadat in the trueHD mix are just mixed better than some of those with no ATMOS metadata

[musicfan]

thank you for making the distinction i was trying to say more succinct. Sometimes I have trouble putting things into words....i didnt mean for it to be misleading...just trying to be simple and brief

[Bonzo]

Jan 15, 2019 10:45:09 GMT -5 KeithL said:

In short, if you play an Atmos disc on equipment that supports Dolby TrueHD, but not Atmos, it will simply play in plain old TrueHD;,nothing will be "lost" or "discarded" and it should sound good.

So what's more likely, the mixer does his best first mix using Atmos, then down converts it to Dolby True, or the other way around, doing Dolby True first, then up-mixing it to Atmos?

I ask this because when playing the new Blade Runner Blu-ray, which has options for Atmos and DTS-Master 5.1, the DTS version not only sounded much better on my non-Atmos system, but the Dolby True version actually sounded bad. Noticeably bad enough that even my wife commented on it.

[emofrmcgy]

Jan 15, 2019 13:22:53 GMT -5 Bonzo said:

Jan 15, 2019 10:45:09 GMT -5 KeithL said:

In short, if you play an Atmos disc on equipment that supports Dolby TrueHD, but not Atmos, it will simply play in plain old TrueHD;,nothing will be "lost" or "discarded" and it should sound good.

So what's more likely, the mixer does his best first mix using Atmos, then down converts it to Dolby True, or the other way around, doing Dolby True first, then up-mixing it to Atmos?

I ask this because when playing the new Blade Runner Blu-ray, which has options for Atmos and DTS-Master 5.1, the DTS version not only sounded much better on my non-Atmos system, but the Dolby True version actually sounded bad. Noticeably bad enough that even my wife commented on it.

was she outside two houses away cutting the grass at the time ?

[Gary Cook]

Jan 15, 2019 13:22:53 GMT -5 Bonzo said:

Jan 15, 2019 10:45:09 GMT -5 KeithL said:

In short, if you play an Atmos disc on equipment that supports Dolby TrueHD, but not Atmos, it will simply play in plain old TrueHD;,nothing will be "lost" or "discarded" and it should sound good.

So what's more likely, the mixer does his best first mix using Atmos, then down converts it to Dolby True, or the other way around, doing Dolby True first, then up-mixing it to Atmos?

I ask this because when playing the new Blade Runner Blu-ray, which has options for Atmos and DTS-Master 5.1, the DTS version not only sounded much better on my non-Atmos system, but the Dolby True version actually sounded bad. Noticeably bad enough that even my wife commented on it.

I don’t know the exact answer to the first question. But my limited understanding is that the bed channels (hence True HD) are done first with all of the “sounds” and then the objects are pulled out (of those channels) and the metadata is added.

In regards to your observation regarding DTS versus Dolby, my experience has been that more often than not the DTS sound track sounds better. This has been the case for me for some time, but is really noticeable with a DTS HDMA versus Dolby True HD comparison. It also true based on my listening for Neural versus DSU, Neural is way ahead in its upmixing algorithm.

Cheers
Gary

[musicfan]

DTS has always been superior in surround formats...so no surprise there.

i disagree about the upmixer

[Gary Cook]

Hi Keith, KeithL I think the question was more about what happens when we play the Atmos track without ceiling speakers being in place. My limited experience was that whatever speaker layout we tell the processor we have then that’s what it plays through. So if we tell it we don’t have any ceiling speakers then the sound from the objects that are supposed to play through the ceiling speakers aren’t lost. The processor does the best it can to play them through whatever speaker layout we have.

It’s much the same as when we play a non Atmos 7.1 sound track with only 5.1 speakers, the sounds that were supposed to come from the 7 are downmixed so they come from the 5. Atmos seems to me to work the same way, it downmixes but doesn’t lose anything. Same as if we have a 5.1.2 set up and the Atmos sound track is 7.1.4, the sounds for the +2’s aren’t lost, just mixed down into the 5 and 2.

Cheers
Gary

[musicfan]

There is NO downmixing with atmos

It’s a 7.1 track and metadata is PULLED from that when atmos is available.

[Bonzo]

Jan 15, 2019 15:52:25 GMT -5 musicfan said:

There is NO downmixing with atmos

It’s a 7.1 track and metadata is PULLED from that when atmos is available.

I get that's how it "works" when its being done at your house on the processor. I was just curious how the proffesional mixer guy does it at his end, before putting it on a disc.

For example, if the guy spends a ton of time doing the Atmos mix just so, could he be tired at the end of the day and just do a quick "dump" down to get the Dolby True mix? And in doing so, wind up with a Dolby True mix that has the object burried or extra loud? Just asking cause Im curious.

[Bonzo]

Jan 15, 2019 14:47:52 GMT -5 emofrmcgy said:

Jan 15, 2019 13:22:53 GMT -5 Bonzo said:

So what's more likely, the mixer does his best first mix using Atmos, then down converts it to Dolby True, or the other way around, doing Dolby True first, then up-mixing it to Atmos?

I ask this because when playing the new Blade Runner Blu-ray, which has options for Atmos and DTS-Master 5.1, the DTS version not only sounded much better on my non-Atmos system, but the Dolby True version actually sounded bad. Noticeably bad enough that even my wife commented on it.

was she outside two houses away cutting the grass at the time ?

Well no, it wasn't THAT noticable. 🤣

[Gary Cook]

Jan 15, 2019 15:52:25 GMT -5 musicfan said:

There is NO downmixing with atmos
It’s a 7.1 track and metadata is PULLED from that when atmos is available.

What's been your experience when a 7.1.4 Atmos sound track is played on an Atmos 5.1.2 setup?
Are there sound effects that go missing? That you can hear though the 7.1.4 systems but are simply not there in a 5.1.2 system?

Cheers
Gary

[KeithL]

The workflow can vary considerably - and is very different between authoring new content and re-mixing or re-authoring existing content.

Remember that the vast majority of all existing content was created in the past.

There are also lots of different ways of looking at it, depending on whether you're talking about authoring, encoding, or decoding.

(The way the data is stored on the disc, transmit via a stream, and decoded, is rather different than the way it is authored.)

Everything from now on is somewhat simplified.....

In general, when authoring Atmos content from scratch, you start with the largest amount of detail first.

You are going to create a mix that includes your bed channels and your objects (each object is like a separate audio sample - stored in its own separate track).

Bed tracks are rendered at specific fixed locations from a specific speaker or array of speakers (Left Front Bed, Right Surround Bed, etc).

Each object consists of a sound clip and a set of properties.

The Dolby authoring plugin shows each object as a red ball floating in a 3D model of a room...

Each object can get larger or smaller, louder or quieter, and can move around, during the time span in which it exists.

(So, for example, an object could appear as a small red ball at the bottom rear left corner, zoom around, and end up as a large red ball at the top front right corner.)

When this mix is encoded, the encoder will create several different data streams, which will all become part of the Atmos mix.

The core data stream will contain a Dolby Digital 5.1 or 7.1 mix (a device that only supports Dolby Digital will use only this data stream and ignore or discard the other two).

A second data stream will contain the difference between the core and the Dolby TrueHD version (a TrueHD decoder will use both of these to render the Dolby TrueHD version).

A third data stream will contain the Atmos metadata, which is the difference between the TrueHD version and the Atmos version (an Atmos decoder will use all three data streams).

The bottom line is that, when you do the Atmos encode, you're going to end up with the TrueHD data stream as part of the same process.

Now, if you were starting with a TrueHD version, and re-mixing it for Atmos, the process is a lot less simple.

In a TrueHD mix, there are no objects, so everything is mixed into the equivalent of the bed tracks.

This means that, in order to create an Atmos version from a TrueHD version, you're going to need to CREATE all those separate objects for the Atmos mix.

If you've still got your original mix, and all of its components, with luck you have separate clips for each sound, and you can do it that way.

This will take significant effort because each object will have to be assigned parameters like a location and a size.

And, if all those separate clips weren't saved individually, then you're going to have to create or re-create all those Atmos objects.

If you don't want to put that much effort into the process, and aren't quite as picky, there are other options.

One such option would be "fixed objects".

If you were mastering a war movie in Atmos, with planes flying around overhead, you would assign each plane to an object, so you could position and control each separately.

However, if you're remastering an old war movie, at most there are going to be one or two tracks of "planes flying overhead", or even just some separate clips of "airplanes".

If that's what you have, you can save a lot of effort, and still produce a decent result, if you simply create one or two pairs of "big objects in the sky", and assign the "airplane channels" to them.

You won't have precise control of individual airplanes, but you'll still have "airplanes overhead", and it won't take much work.

(Remember that, since the original recording didn't have multiple accurately positioned airplanes anyway, this will still be as good or better than the original.)

I'm sure there are various software solutions that also facilitate doing something similar.

Imagine treating your original copy as stereo content, running it through the DSU to simulate surround sound, then recording the result onto your Atmos disc.

(Now throw in being able to do this for some scenes and not others, and manually adjust the results, and the like.)

As for what you experienced.... in the end a lot of the end result is going to depend on the person who does the authoring, and their priorities and skill.

For example, if there was a sound from overhead, relatively quiet, but distinct mostly because it's coming from overhead, it's going to get lost when you mix it into the other channels.

A skilled mix engineer, who cares about the TrueHD mix, may prevent that from happening by boosting that sound in the TrueHD mix, then reducing it's level as an overhead object in the Atmos version.)

Jan 15, 2019 13:22:53 GMT -5 Bonzo said:

Jan 15, 2019 10:45:09 GMT -5 KeithL said:

In short, if you play an Atmos disc on equipment that supports Dolby TrueHD, but not Atmos, it will simply play in plain old TrueHD;,nothing will be "lost" or "discarded" and it should sound good.

So what's more likely, the mixer does his best first mix using Atmos, then down converts it to Dolby True, or the other way around, doing Dolby True first, then up-mixing it to Atmos?

I ask this because when playing the new Blade Runner Blu-ray, which has options for Atmos and DTS-Master 5.1, the DTS version not only sounded much better on my non-Atmos system, but the Dolby True version actually sounded bad. Noticeably bad enough that even my wife commented on it.