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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 7, 2019 21:23:07 GMT -5
A length of wire is an antenna. Same length, same pick up frequencies. Doesn't matter if you call it an interconnect or a speaker wire - no difference, it's still a given length of wire. If the induced noise is on top of a low level signal such as a phono level signal, it is more likely to be audible. If the induced noise is on top of a higher level signal, such as that going to a power amp, then it is less likely to cause the same level of audible noise.
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 7, 2019 21:27:14 GMT -5
There is such a thing as "design aesthetics" (to use one term for it). For example, an amplifier with a THD of 0.001% is technologically better than one with a THD of 0.01% - whether you can hear that difference or not. A "theoretically perfect" design would have 0% THD.... so the design that more closely approaches that goal is more perfect than the one that is further from that goal.. Um, no. In your case you'd have an amplifier that is better in THD, alone. That's it. It isn't a better amplifier, or a better amplifier design, it is an amplifier that is better in one technical aspect. It's why there are amps out there with far better specs than Emotiva's and cost more, yet perform worse.
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Feb 7, 2019 21:28:55 GMT -5
Interconnects because of the low signal level are more prone to picking up audible interference. Speaker runs pick them up too but since the signal level is higher the same level of picked up noise is less audible. This is what signal to noise means. So then back to a previous post of mine, which says most people, in normal applications, will typically use short interconnects, and long speaker wire. Components in the same rack, short run. Surround sound speakers all over the room, long run speaker wires. Using self powered speakers or close to speaker amps change the equation, but that does not represent most people. Not even close. So? I do agree that most folks would use speaker wire vs interconnects of any kind for the surrounds. But i’m not sure what you are asking me. (or if it is addressed to me)
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 7, 2019 21:31:00 GMT -5
There is such a thing as "design aesthetics" (to use one term for it). For example, an amplifier with a THD of 0.001% is technologically better than one with a THD of 0.01% - whether you can hear that difference or not. A "theoretically perfect" design would have 0% THD.... so the design that more closely approaches that goal is more perfect than the one that is further from that goal.. Um, no. In your case you'd have an amplifier that is better in THD, alone. That's it. It isn't a better amplifier, or a better amplifier design, it is an amplifier that is better in one technical aspect. It's why there are amps out there with far better specs than Emotiva's and cost more, yet perform worse. Look, you are jumping all over the place logically. Keith was talking about one specific technical measurement. Please read and think before you bark!
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Post by Bonzo on Feb 7, 2019 21:34:51 GMT -5
A length of wire is an antenna. Same length, same pick up frequencies. Doesn't matter if you call it an interconnect or a speaker wire - no difference, it's still a given length of wire. If the induced noise is on top of a low level signal such as a phono level signal, it is more likely to be audible. If the induced noise is on top of a higher level signal, such as that going to a power amp, then it is less likely to cause the same level of noise. Okay, so another tech question, and really, I'm currently enjoying this conversation because I'm trying to learn from you guys. Really. Aren't the way interconnects designed and produced, especially balanced cables, made with shielding to help with this? But how many speaker wires have such shielding? Is it not possible, or even likely, that a long speaker wire run couldn't pick up much more crap than a short run interconnect? Past power wires, past a refrigerator, past a ceiling fan etc? How about my room, where 2 of my surround speakers are located in close proximity to the entire house breaker box?
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Post by overtheair on Feb 7, 2019 21:35:44 GMT -5
Phew ... don't know about anyone else but the last few pages are enough to unbalance anybody. Just as well RMC-1 expansion bays are screwed down otherwise we'd probably be totally unhinged at this point too :-)
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Feb 7, 2019 21:36:03 GMT -5
We really should take the balanced vs un balanced discussion to another thread.
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Post by Bonzo on Feb 7, 2019 21:37:54 GMT -5
So then back to a previous post of mine, which says most people, in normal applications, will typically use short interconnects, and long speaker wire. Components in the same rack, short run. Surround sound speakers all over the room, long run speaker wires. Using self powered speakers or close to speaker amps change the equation, but that does not represent most people. Not even close. So? I do agree that most folks would use speaker wire vs interconnects of any kind for the surrounds. But i’m not sure what you are asking me. (or if it is addressed to me) I was asking you since it appeared as if you were answering my previous post. You didn't quote me but many people here don't so sometimes it's hard to tell. If you weren't replying to me then perhaps you could just take it as a general post. Thanks.
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 7, 2019 21:43:39 GMT -5
A length of wire is an antenna. Same length, same pick up frequencies. Doesn't matter if you call it an interconnect or a speaker wire - no difference, it's still a given length of wire. If the induced noise is on top of a low level signal such as a phono level signal, it is more likely to be audible. If the induced noise is on top of a higher level signal, such as that going to a power amp, then it is less likely to cause the same level of noise. Okay, so another tech question, and really, I'm currently enjoying this conversation because I'm trying to learn from you guys. Really. Aren't the way interconnects designed and produced, especially balanced cables, made with shielding to help with this? But how many speaker wires have such shielding? Is it not possible, or even likely, that a long speaker wire run couldn't pick up much more crap than a short run interconnect? Past power wires, past a refrigerator, past a ceiling fan etc? How about my room, where 2 of my surround speakers are located in close proximity to the entire house breaker box? Shielding can have unintended consequences, namely capacitance. This can turn your run into a filter of sort.
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Post by Bonzo on Feb 7, 2019 21:46:41 GMT -5
Okay, so another tech question, and really, I'm currently enjoying this conversation because I'm trying to learn from you guys. Really. Aren't the way interconnects designed and produced, especially balanced cables, made with shielding to help with this? But how many speaker wires have such shielding? Is it not possible, or even likely, that a long speaker wire run couldn't pick up much more crap than a short run interconnect? Past power wires, past a refrigerator, past a ceiling fan etc? How about my room, where 2 of my surround speakers are located in close proximity to the entire house breaker box? Shielding can have unintended consequences, namely capacitance. This can turn your run into a filter of sort. Higher capacitance? In layman's terms, higher resistance? Like trying to shove schiit through a 2" pipe instead of a 4" one?
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Feb 7, 2019 21:58:42 GMT -5
Shielding can have unintended consequences, namely capacitance. This can turn your run into a filter of sort. Higher capacitance? In layman's terms, higher resistance? Like trying to shove schiit through a 2" pipe instead of a 4" one? We are talking about rolling off the signal like a capacitor does in a crossover. Given a choice XLRs are the superior choice of cable vs RCAs. But this is a different topic from type of balanced circuits available like single ended vs dual differential.
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 7, 2019 22:06:08 GMT -5
Balanced cables also have much better noise immunity in noisy environments - even over short distances. Balanced cables are specifically very resistant to interference that is transmit through the air - like from fluorescent fixtures, or large motors, or light dimmers, or wireless microphones. Not all sources of interference will affect a given audio system, and balanced cables won't prevent all of them from causing problems in all cases, but they reduce the likelihood of those sorts of problems. (And, yes, in some rare instances they may even make a difference over a few feet.] Right. Because most people build their home theaters around their machine shop and over their electromagnetic satellite control station, and then plop their $5k processor in there with it. Good grief man, be careful or you'll throw your back out making a reach like that at your age. My garage is 30 metres away from my lounge room and I use the MIG welder in the garage (doesn't everyone). I also have a linisher, a pedestal drill and an air compressor. The fridge with the (electronically noisy) ice maker is 15 metres away. Plus my neighbours "man cave" is 5 metres or so from my garage wall. It's just a well equipped garage, far from being a machine shop (that has a lathe and a rotary mill) plus a TIG welder and decent sized air compressor. The fact is balanced connections removed all of the EMI from my system and I gave a pair of balanced cables to my neighbour and he's happy too. I don't think Keith is reaching, even the tiniest bit, and my back is just fine thank you. Cheers Gary
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Post by Bonzo on Feb 7, 2019 22:13:35 GMT -5
Higher capacitance? In layman's terms, higher resistance? Like trying to shove schiit through a 2" pipe instead of a 4" one? We are talking about rolling off the signal like a capacitor does in a crossover. Okay, got it. I know I'm sounding dumb with all this. The thing is, in all honesty, I took several electronic classes in high school, a year of physics and 2 dedicated electronic classes at MSU, did well, but as they say, I've forgotten it all because neither life nor my job has demanded I remember it. I took 3 levels of calculus too, understood it well, but now have zero memory of how it works. I'd say that's more normal than the other way around. But I do love to learn anymore, when it fits my interests. Enough of that deep schiit. 😎
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 7, 2019 22:15:49 GMT -5
A length of wire is an antenna. Same length, same pick up frequencies. Doesn't matter if you call it an interconnect or a speaker wire - no difference, it's still a given length of wire. If the induced noise is on top of a low level signal such as a phono level signal, it is more likely to be audible. If the induced noise is on top of a higher level signal, such as that going to a power amp, then it is less likely to cause the same level of noise. Okay, so another tech question, and really, I'm currently enjoying this conversation because I'm trying to learn from you guys. Really. Aren't the way interconnects designed and produced, especially balanced cables, made with shielding to help with this? But how many speaker wires have such shielding? Is it not possible, or even likely, that a long speaker wire run couldn't pick up much more crap than a short run interconnect? Past power wires, past a refrigerator, past a ceiling fan etc? How about my room, where 2 of my surround speakers are located in close proximity to the entire house breaker box? In simple terms, the signal strength between a power amp and a speaker is at minimum 30 times stronger than the signal strength between a pre amp and a power amp. So the same amount of "interference" will be 30 times louder if it gets in between the pre amp and the power amp than if it gets in in between the power amp and the speaker. The power amp amplifies the "interference". I hope that makes sense. Cheers Gary
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Post by garbulky on Feb 8, 2019 1:51:52 GMT -5
I doubt Emotiva is getting many returns because of this supposed no benefit. I know I didn't return my XPA-1 gen 2 and couldn't be happier with my purchase. Granted they aren't driving any surround speakers. But if I had the funds, they would be! Er, um, yeah, no clue what returns have to do with this, so... I agree? Well said? Maybe? If these guys bought it because it was balanced and there's no benefit for them when they tried it, wouldn't they return it? I haven't seen a trend like that here at Emotiva, so I don't think this is a problem.
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Post by Bonzo on Feb 8, 2019 9:39:57 GMT -5
Okay, so another tech question, and really, I'm currently enjoying this conversation because I'm trying to learn from you guys. Really. Aren't the way interconnects designed and produced, especially balanced cables, made with shielding to help with this? But how many speaker wires have such shielding? Is it not possible, or even likely, that a long speaker wire run couldn't pick up much more crap than a short run interconnect? Past power wires, past a refrigerator, past a ceiling fan etc? How about my room, where 2 of my surround speakers are located in close proximity to the entire house breaker box? In simple terms, the signal strength between a power amp and a speaker is at minimum 30 times stronger than the signal strength between a pre amp and a power amp. So the same amount of "interference" will be 30 times louder if it gets in between the pre amp and the power amp than if it gets in in between the power amp and the speaker. The power amp amplifies the "interference". I hope that makes sense. Cheers Gary Yeah, that helps. Thanks. Part of the reason I'm trying to understand all this is that I do get some SLIGHT hum from 2 of my 4 surrounds. These 2 surrounds are in close proximity to my breaker box. I don't get any hum from the other 2 surrounds, or my center channel, all running from my XPA-5. So the hum has to be coming from the speaker wire picking up interference from all that juice coming out of the breaker box. At least thats the easiest explanation.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 8, 2019 9:58:16 GMT -5
Good explanation.
Speakers operate at a MUCH higher power level than interconnects... and a much lower impedance... both of which make them much less sensitive to interference.
Have you ever touched one of your input cables when it was unplugged from the preamp or processor and the amplifier was on?
You got a nasty noise as the amplifier boosted the tiny noise signal from your finger and sent it to the speakers.
Have you ever heard a noise when you unplugged a speaker wire from your amp and touched the end of it? I very much doubt it.
It is actually POSSIBLE for a speaker cable to pick up interference.... which can feed back into the output and feedback loop of the amplifier.... and cause audible noises. And it's also POSSIBLE for a very sensitive speaker to make noises, when not connected to anything, if one of the coils in the crossover should happen to act like an antenna.
However, it is incredibly rare for either of those things to happen.
You should also note that, when you add shielding to a cable, you also add capacitance... And, the longer the cable is, the more capacitance you add (capacitance is specified in "pf PER FOOT").
And some amplifiers have problems if the speaker wires you attach to them have too much capacitance...
There have in fact been shielded speaker cables, both in the form of normal cables with added shielding, and in the form of heavy coaxial cable. (They were even a bit of a fad for a while - before "long grain copper" and "silver wires"....... ) And, no, I've never seen any proof that they worked any better than ordinary ones.
Also bear in mind that, since neither terminal of the speaker is grounded at the speaker end, as far as the amplifier is concerned, a speaker is a balanced load... As a result, the speaker wire on a passive speaker acts as a sort of balanced connection - any noise that is induced equally in both conductors will cancel out and result in no current flowing through the speaker.
Okay, so another tech question, and really, I'm currently enjoying this conversation because I'm trying to learn from you guys. Really. Aren't the way interconnects designed and produced, especially balanced cables, made with shielding to help with this? But how many speaker wires have such shielding? Is it not possible, or even likely, that a long speaker wire run couldn't pick up much more crap than a short run interconnect? Past power wires, past a refrigerator, past a ceiling fan etc? How about my room, where 2 of my surround speakers are located in close proximity to the entire house breaker box? In simple terms, the signal strength between a power amp and a speaker is at minimum 30 times stronger than the signal strength between a pre amp and a power amp. So the same amount of "interference" will be 30 times louder if it gets in between the pre amp and the power amp than if it gets in in between the power amp and the speaker. The power amp amplifies the "interference". I hope that makes sense. Cheers Gary
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 8, 2019 10:28:13 GMT -5
Look, you are jumping all over the place logically. Keith was talking about one specific technical measurement. Please read and think before you bark! I'm not sure I follow. Keith wrote, in his typical style, 1 proposed element, then a mini-novella around that element. I responded to that 1 element. I simply diluted out his wordy analogies and comparisons and addressed his core point.
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 8, 2019 10:35:05 GMT -5
If these guys bought it because it was balanced and there's no benefit for them when they tried it, wouldn't they return it? I haven't seen a trend like that here at Emotiva, so I don't think this is a problem. Now Goob - how would they know it didn't give them a benefit until they could test the unbalanced versions? Besides, I'm not sure how you seem stuck on there being a "problem". I'm simply pointing out the audiophoolery of the concept that balanced surrounds is an improvement.
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 8, 2019 10:44:32 GMT -5
Look, you are jumping all over the place logically. Keith was talking about one specific technical measurement. Please read and think before you bark! I'm not sure I follow. Keith wrote, in his typical style, 1 proposed element, then a mini-novella around that element. I responded to that 1 element. I simply diluted out his wordy analogies and comparisons and addressed his core point. Now you are jumping from illogical to incomprehensible!
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