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Post by garbulky on Feb 8, 2019 22:30:22 GMT -5
I'm going to shift gears with this discussion a bit and ask another really stupid question. If XLR cables alone can help reduce noise, why then do more high end components not use XLR connections for EVERYTHING instead of RCA? Limited rear end real estate? There is a good amount of the high end that does use balanced drive. But you see less tubes with balanced. Also I've noticed a lot of turntables don't use balanced. I don't think balanced is required for excellent performance.
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Post by RichGuy on Feb 9, 2019 1:01:44 GMT -5
I'm going to shift gears with this discussion a bit and ask another really stupid question. If XLR cables alone can help reduce noise, why then do more high end components not use XLR connections for EVERYTHING instead of RCA? Limited rear end real estate? XLR connectors were first used in professional use in studios and on stage, where the need for more robust connections is more needed and long runs are more common. They have been becoming more and more common recently on higher end audio components because of the superior noise reduction of balanced connections and the nicer more robust XLR connectors, which make them great for audio systems as well. They are starting to replace RCA connectors more and more. Personally I like seeing this trend and I use XLR instead of RCA whenever possible.
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 9, 2019 8:16:40 GMT -5
Less noise sounds better to me. Higher SNR has been sought since audio began in every source type of playback and the higher the SNR of the source material, the more important it is to retain that throughout the entire playback system. Sure, but amps aren't noisy and haven't been for a long time. Inaudible is inaudible; you don't get more points for being more inaudible. BUT, and that's a big but, if you could hear the noise between the 2 and could reliably discern which is which and the balanced sounded better, than yes that would be a better amp. This might be possible on the mains, but it ain't gonna happen on the surrounds. So you're like the 1st little pig in the fairy tale. I'll take the amp (entire system, really) made of brick!
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 9, 2019 11:38:23 GMT -5
If it's driven by the unbalanced output, you would be using only half its power, unless I got that backwards. If true, that would be bad. Have not heard of a design where between the diff/unbalanced output there is a power difference.
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 9, 2019 11:45:05 GMT -5
So you're like the 1st little pig in the fairy tale. I'll the amp (entire system, really) made of brick! Ahh, time for my daily dose of the differential debacle. I must say I failed at parsing this post completely. I'll just reiterate differential is good if you have noise issues, and probably no additional expense vs. unbalanced. Dual differential is noticeably more expensive and is difficult to get right in the real world. Neither of which, barring noise like Gary's fridge hum, would be remotely identifiable in a surround.
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Post by Bonzo on Feb 9, 2019 11:49:05 GMT -5
I'm going to shift gears with this discussion a bit and ask another really stupid question. If XLR cables alone can help reduce noise, why then do more high end components not use XLR connections for EVERYTHING instead of RCA? Limited rear end real estate? XLR connectors were first used in professional use in studios and on stage, where the need for more robust connections is more needed and long runs are more common. They have been becoming more and more common recently on higher end audio components because of the superior noise reduction of balanced connections and the nicer more robust XLR connectors, which make them great for audio systems as well. They are starting to replace RCA connectors more and more. Personally I like seeing this trend and I use XLR instead of RCA whenever possible. I TOTALLY get it in the pro world, like at concerts etc. I'm not arguing anything when it comes to the idea that its technically better etc. But, I'm thinking in most applications, its not really NECESSARY. Wanted, sure, because us humans like to have security of knowing we have the best even if it doesn't matter. But when all components are located in close proximity to each other, like in a rack, then I'm thinking XLR is not really NECESSARY. But, true audiophile nuts like to have their big expensive amps sitting on stands right next to their speakers. This means that the source equipment isn't probably 3 feet away. Like in my case, I NEED 18ft of cable to get from my processor to my XPA-2, and NEED 10 ft to get to my XPA-5. So in my case, XLR connections MIGHT be beneficial. Although as of right now, I have zero hum from my LCR speakers, or 2 of the 4 surrounds. I'll report back after next week when I finally get things changed out and hooked up.
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 9, 2019 12:32:49 GMT -5
So you're like the 1st little pig in the fairy tale. I'll the amp (entire system, really) made of brick! Ahh, time for my daily dose of the differential debacle. I must say I failed at parsing this post completely. I'll just reiterate differential is good if you have noise issues, and probably no additional expense vs. unbalanced. Dual differential is noticeably more expensive and is difficult to get right in the real world. Neither of which, barring noise like Gary's fridge hum, would be remotely identifiable in a surround. Nice to see you're finally coming around! I would hate for the big bad noise wolf to get you someday!
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 9, 2019 13:58:09 GMT -5
Nice to see you're finally coming around! I would hate for the big bad noise wolf to get you someday! You and me both, my brutha.
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Post by RichGuy on Feb 9, 2019 14:38:24 GMT -5
XLR connectors were first used in professional use in studios and on stage, where the need for more robust connections is more needed and long runs are more common. They have been becoming more and more common recently on higher end audio components because of the superior noise reduction of balanced connections and the nicer more robust XLR connectors, which make them great for audio systems as well. They are starting to replace RCA connectors more and more. Personally I like seeing this trend and I use XLR instead of RCA whenever possible. I TOTALLY get it in the pro world, like at concerts etc. I'm not arguing anything when it comes to the idea that its technically better etc. But, I'm thinking in most applications, its not really NECESSARY. Wanted, sure, because us humans like to have security of knowing we have the best even if it doesn't matter. But when all components are located in close proximity to each other, like in a rack, then I'm thinking XLR is not really NECESSARY. But, true audiophile nuts like to have their big expensive amps sitting on stands right next to their speakers. This means that the source equipment isn't probably 3 feet away. Like in my case, I NEED 18ft of cable to get from my processor to my XPA-2, and NEED 10 ft to get to my XPA-5. So in my case, XLR connections MIGHT be beneficial. Although as of right now, I have zero hum from my LCR speakers, or 2 of the 4 surrounds. I'll report back after next week when I finally get things changed out and hooked up. My 2 shortest XLR cables are 18 inches, most are about 20ft and my longest one a Digital AES/EBU Cable I forget exactly but it's between 25' and 30' long. My XLR cables are all custom made using Mogami wire, many using Mogami snake cable and all using Neutrik XLR connectors. Being a person who has always cared very much about my cables, I have to say my XLR cables have been my favorite interconnect cable change I've ever made.
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Post by garbulky on Feb 9, 2019 16:21:31 GMT -5
I'm lucky I never had a noise problem. However if I get my ears close to the speakers I can usually hear a hiss. With the balanced connection I don't notice a hiss. Perhaps it's there, but if it is, it's a good bit softer. For me, the soundstage feels a bit coherent and an overall bigger sound. But I don't know what's contributing to it - monoblocks - better amp - balanced - class a - my imagination.
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Post by RichGuy on Feb 9, 2019 17:46:58 GMT -5
I'm lucky I never had a noise problem. However if I get my ears close to the speakers I can usually hear a hiss. My system is dead silent when nothing is playing, I need to place my head against my speaker with my ear into the horn to hear any noise or hiss and my hearing is excellent. I've always tried to do my best to reduce any floor noise to the minimum.
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Post by audiosyndrome on Feb 9, 2019 21:45:18 GMT -5
I can’t find a dead horse emoji but that’s just what this thread needs,IMHO of course. If you’re happy with RCA, fine. If you’re happy with fully balanced fine (and why we’re at it, let’s stop this dual differential quad differential bull schiit it’s fully balanced or it’s not). I’m in the balanced camp by the way and that doesn’t mean long runs are necessarily required.
Look behind your rack. OK I’ll look behind mine. Fifteen electronic boxes hooked hooked up with cables going every which way although optimized by me. The perfect environment for balanced cables and fully balanced equipment. No noise from my speakers at full volume. Period.
Russ
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Post by cwt on Feb 9, 2019 23:19:05 GMT -5
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Post by garbulky on Feb 10, 2019 0:12:00 GMT -5
If it's driven by the unbalanced output, you would be using only half its power, unless I got that backwards. If true, that would be bad. Have not heard of a design where between the diff/unbalanced output there is a power difference. Perhaps I'm wrong. I know for headphone amps this is true. But then again there output IS the single ended/balanced connector.
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 10, 2019 9:05:17 GMT -5
If true, that would be bad. Have not heard of a design where between the diff/unbalanced output there is a power difference. Perhaps I'm wrong. I know for headphone amps this is true. But then again there output IS the single ended/balanced connector. There are all kinds of 'balanced' circuits out there. Unfortunately you have to know with what you are dealing. Most components are basically unbalanced designs using one internal power supply. To create a balanced connection a lot of these use balun transformers which unfortunately may degrade the sound at the same time as improving the common mode noise situation. Although I grimace to say it, some conversions of unbalanced to balanced simply involve tying the unbalanced common signal to one of the XLR hot pins (ugh!). In addition some older components switched the polarity connected to the hot and cold pins of the XLR. Since there are 3 connections to an XLR, they are more idiot prone (6 different ways to connect 3 wires). Fully balanced component designs have two power supplies, a positive w/r to signal common and a negative w/r to signal common. So the RCA connection winds up using only the positive connection while the balanced connection uses both positive and negative, which can result in a 3db louder connection to an amp depending on the nature of its input connection design. If one can't mentally handle the complexities of balanced circuits and connectors, please stick to unbalanced RCA connections.
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 10, 2019 10:56:54 GMT -5
That's the spirit Puff. Don't let that mental complexity wolf get you!
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 10, 2019 11:15:05 GMT -5
That's the spirit Puff. Don't let that mental complexity wolf get you!
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Post by adaboy on Feb 10, 2019 11:25:16 GMT -5
I can’t find a dead horse emoji but that’s just what this thread needs,IMHO of course. Russ Well lets try this one instead, at least he's having fun. 🍻
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Post by emofrmcgy on Feb 10, 2019 12:27:32 GMT -5
But he marantz units are not fully balanced the same way that the rmc is. Xlr does not equal fully balanced. Or does it ?
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Post by cwt on Feb 10, 2019 12:50:51 GMT -5
But he marantz units are not fully balanced the same way that the rmc is. Xlr does not equal fully balanced. Or does it ? Yes ; Its important to distinguish between balanced circuitry and balanced outputs . As Keith has explained you can get the common mode noise reduction advantages over well implemented balanced outputs . If you want the whole system to gain S/N [ which has been well explored here] you need balanced circuitry as well like the RMC1 ; not just single ended like the Marantz and others.. At least the Marantz have honest balanced outputs ; there have been brands like integra in the past that only had 1 conductor hooked up to the xlr = no common mode rejection for hum/rfi
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