ukengb
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 5
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Post by ukengb on Feb 7, 2019 9:34:21 GMT -5
Thinking of wanting an RMC-1 but have some questions and would be grateful for any answers.
How can you control the LFE channel(s)?
Many amps (all encompassing term) these days allow sub woofers to be assigned to L, R, Front or Rear (and maybe other options). How does the RMC-1 handle this? I think I read somewhere that all sub outputs are equivalent, but is there ANY way to control the sub outputs like this?
With some reference on the main site (Blog/News maybe) to utilising 5 sub channels, is an amp of such exceptional capabilities as the RMC-1 (not to mention expense) only able to output exactly the same signal to each of the 5 sub woofers?
I also think I read that the RMC-1 provides HDMI Pass Thru. on Standby. Again, how does this work?
I have a problem with my current setup in that when the amp is in Standby, the satellite box's Dolby Digital audio output is passed through to the TV (the idea being that the system could be operated with the amp off and just using the TV's speakers, by guess who :-) but the TV seems to be unable to handle the DD signal. With the amp on, it decodes the DD and I get sound from the main speakers. But currently, I cannot take advantage of HDMI pass thru. How does the RMC-1 handle this? Is there any control over what signals get passed etc? Is there any way to avoid the above problem?
Talking of control, the RMC-1 is HDMI Control (CEC) enabled, yes? I'd like to find out more about how it handles this too. For a start, is it mutually exclusive with using HDMI Pass Thru? My current Yamaha will do one or the other and I can see why. Turn on the Source device and how can it know whether you want that to turn on everything else, or just pass it through. So is it either/or on the RMC-1 too.
Does/can HDMI Control also control the audio. I have a current problem on the Yamaha that when HDMI Control is on, it works great in that when I turn on the source device (e.g. Apple TV), the amp and the TV both turn on and vice versa when the TV is put to sleep. But there's no audio output from the amp as the audio is sent direct to the TV and I cannot utilise the Home Theatre setup I've so painstakingly put together. No way to change this that I've found so far, so HDMI Control has to be off to allow me to use the amp's audio output, which then means the devices don't all work in sync with a single command. Basically it's a nightmare. Anyway...
I would like to find out more about how the RMC-1 deals with HDMI Control and Standby Pass Thru in the hope that it will solve my problems - or at least, not make them worse. So I'd be interested to hear from anyone who can advise about the RMC-1's operational capabilities in regard to the above issues.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,902
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Post by KeithL on Feb 7, 2019 11:08:35 GMT -5
Here's the story.... Most surround sound formats, as recorded on disc, only support a single LFE channel... which may then be played through as many subs as you may have. However, the bass management for the other channels, which is handled by the processor, may support the option for "stereo subs". What this means is that, when bass management is enabled, the bass content that is redirected by the bass management is handled in stereo. (So, for example, if you have two subs, and small fronts, the LFE track will be sent to both subs, but the low frequencies from the FL speaker will go to the Left Sub, and the low frequencies from the FR speaker will go to the Right Sub.)
At least initially, the bass management in the RMC-1 will be configured to work according to the requirements of Dolby Atmos - which is as a single LFE channel. And the bass management portion that operates outside of Atmos will work the same way - so all subs will effectively be "multiple mono". (This means that, while things like EQ and room correction will be separate for each, they will all receive the same mono signal.) (Again, note that this is the way Dolby considers to be the right way to do it.) We may EVENTUALLY bring back the option of treating the bass-management portion of things as "stereo subs"..... However, at this point, we are not promising to do so, or saying when it might be implemented (it's "on the list").
"Pass Through On Standy", "Video On Standby", and "High Power Standby" all mean pretty much the same thing.
When this feature is enabled, when the RMC-1 is in Standby mode, it will continue to pass both audio and video directly to the TV via HDMI. This mode is intended so, for example, the family can watch the news on TV "without turning on the big stereo"; when the RMC-1 is in Standby the TV basically works like a "regular TV".
There are some limitations to this mode... and some issues which are currently being addressed.
CEC has always been, and continues to be, problematic between different brands and units. Exactly how CEC works depends on the options available in each unit, how they are configured, and the order in the various units have been turned on. If you look on the RMC-1, you'll find a single menu entry under SETUP | HDMI-CEC called "Enable". When that box is unchecked HDMI-CEC in the RMC-1 itself is disabled. When that box is checked, you'll see several other options, including "Audio to TV". Leaving the Enable box checked, but unchecking the Audio To TV box MIGHT prevent the TV from "stealing audio" from the RMC-1 while enabling other CEC features to still work.
(It's worth trying various options.) It's also worth noting that recent Oppo models are especially problematic in this regard because they identify themselves in the CEC hierarchy as processors when they have CEC enabled - which causes a sort of conflict.
Thinking of wanting an RMC-1 but have some questions and would be grateful for any answers. How can you control the LFE channel(s)? Many amps (all encompassing term) these days allow sub woofers to be assigned to L, R, Front or Rear (and maybe other options). How does the RMC-1 handle this? I think I read somewhere that all sub outputs are equivalent, but is there ANY way to control the sub outputs like this? With some reference on the main site (Blog/News maybe) to utilising 5 sub channels, is an amp of such exceptional capabilities as the RMC-1 (not to mention expense) only able to output exactly the same signal to each of the 5 sub woofers? I also think I read that the RMC-1 provides HDMI Pass Thru. on Standby. Again, how does this work? I have a problem with my current setup in that when the amp is in Standby, the satellite box's Dolby Digital audio output is passed through to the TV (the idea being that the system could be operated with the amp off and just using the TV's speakers, by guess who :-) but the TV seems to be unable to handle the DD signal. With the amp on, it decodes the DD and I get sound from the main speakers. But currently, I cannot take advantage of HDMI pass thru. How does the RMC-1 handle this? Is there any control over what signals get passed etc? Is there any way to avoid the above problem? Talking of control, the RMC-1 is HDMI Control (CEC) enabled, yes? I'd like to find out more about how it handles this too. For a start, is it mutually exclusive with using HDMI Pass Thru? My current Yamaha will do one or the other and I can see why. Turn on the Source device and how can it know whether you want that to turn on everything else, or just pass it through. So is it either/or on the RMC-1 too. Does/can HDMI Control also control the audio. I have a current problem on the Yamaha that when HDMI Control is on, it works great in that when I turn on the source device (e.g. Apple TV), the amp and the TV both turn on and vice versa when the TV is put to sleep. But there's no audio output from the amp as the audio is sent direct to the TV and I cannot utilise the Home Theatre setup I've so painstakingly put together. No way to change this that I've found so far, so HDMI Control has to be off to allow me to use the amp's audio output, which then means the devices don't all work in sync with a single command. Basically it's a nightmare. Anyway... I would like to find out more about how the RMC-1 deals with HDMI Control and Standby Pass Thru in the hope that it will solve my problems - or at least, not make them worse. So I'd be interested to hear from anyone who can advise about the RMC-1's operational capabilities in regard to the above issues.
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Post by theatrebuilder on Feb 19, 2019 14:33:35 GMT -5
Afternoon Keith. Back in September at CEDIA the fact of the RMC-1 expansion modules was announced. I have been reading along in the Owner's Thread and have been following the firmware issues, so understand if the answer to my question is "not yet", but... Has there been ongoing work on the expansion modules in parallel, and if so, are we closer to an announcement of what they might be and when they might be available? First quarter has only six weeks left! I'm looking forward to being able to post in the Owner's Thread once I am one! Thanks [PS. Happy to see your other note reminding folks about civil discourse on the lounge.]
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Post by putzgrilous on Feb 19, 2019 17:26:37 GMT -5
What this means is that, when bass management is enabled, the bass content that is redirected by the bass management is handled in stereo. (So, for example, if you have two subs, and small fronts, the LFE track will be sent to both subs, but the low frequencies from the FL speaker will go to the Left Sub, and the low frequencies from the FR speaker will go to the Right Sub.)
What happens to the LFE channel when you have no subs in your setup? Is it distributed evenly across all large speakers?
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Post by rew452 on Feb 21, 2019 10:46:20 GMT -5
I too, am considering the RMC-1 in the near future but one thing I need is Dolby Vision support and I don't see the RMC-1 has that feature.
I realize it is still in final development - but will it support DV in near future?
Rew
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,473
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Post by LCSeminole on Feb 21, 2019 10:56:59 GMT -5
I too, am considering the RMC-1 in the near future but one thing I need is Dolby Vision support and I don't see the RMC-1 has that feature. I realize it is still in final development - but will it support DV in near future? Rew Yes, it simply passes dynamic metadata through untouched.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,902
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Post by KeithL on Feb 21, 2019 10:58:18 GMT -5
The RMC-1 DOES support Dolby Vision... I too, am considering the RMC-1 in the near future but one thing I need is Dolby Vision support and I don't see the RMC-1 has that feature. I realize it is still in final development - but will it support DV in near future? Rew
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,902
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Post by KeithL on Feb 21, 2019 11:04:12 GMT -5
I don't have any further specifics on that subject yet. Afternoon Keith. Back in September at CEDIA the fact of the RMC-1 expansion modules was announced. I have been reading along in the Owner's Thread and have been following the firmware issues, so understand if the answer to my question is "not yet", but... Has there been ongoing work on the expansion modules in parallel, and if so, are we closer to an announcement of what they might be and when they might be available? First quarter has only six weeks left! I'm looking forward to being able to post in the Owner's Thread once I am one! Thanks [PS. Happy to see your other note reminding folks about civil discourse on the lounge.]
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,902
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Post by KeithL on Feb 21, 2019 11:06:20 GMT -5
When you have a multi-channel source that includes an LFE channel, and no sub, the LFE information is distributed across your other channels. What this means is that, when bass management is enabled, the bass content that is redirected by the bass management is handled in stereo. (So, for example, if you have two subs, and small fronts, the LFE track will be sent to both subs, but the low frequencies from the FL speaker will go to the Left Sub, and the low frequencies from the FR speaker will go to the Right Sub.)
What happens to the LFE channel when you have no subs in your setup? Is it distributed evenly across all large speakers?
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Post by rew452 on Feb 21, 2019 11:52:34 GMT -5
Ok, Great just checking to be sure.
Thanks Rew
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Post by putzgrilous on Feb 21, 2019 15:20:22 GMT -5
Great! Just waiting for the RMC-1 to become available for international shipping to get a unit and setup my room with four Beolab 5... When you have a multi-channel source that includes an LFE channel, and no sub, the LFE information is distributed across your other channels. What happens to the LFE channel when you have no subs in your setup? Is it distributed evenly across all large speakers?
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Post by junchoon on Mar 2, 2019 20:21:25 GMT -5
I also have questions about rmc-1 before purchase. Hope the OP don’t mind me tag along
Whenever I switch from one source or even same source, when the number of music channels changes the impression to listeners are that 2 ch is better than a 5.1 even thought there is no change in volume or gain.
This is because I am using mch power amp - if all five channels driven then per channel will have around 200w but if two channels only then it will jump to 300w+ per channel
Short of getting 5 monoblocks what can RMC-1 do to handle cases like this?
Thanks.
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Post by garbulky on Mar 4, 2019 13:58:00 GMT -5
I also have questions about rmc-1 before purchase. Hope the OP don’t mind me tag along Whenever I switch from one source or even same source, when the number of music channels changes the impression to listeners are that 2 ch is better than a 5.1 even thought there is no change in volume or gain. This is because I am using mch power amp - if all five channels driven then per channel will have around 200w but if two channels only then it will jump to 300w+ per channel Short of getting 5 monoblocks what can RMC-1 do to handle cases like this? Thanks. This is not the issue of your amp. First you should know that for the vast majority of times your amps will be pushing about 1 watt of power. I have listened at lifelike volume levels out of a 5 watt amp. Your issue is likely related to a few things. - The music was put out in 2 channel. When you "expand" it to 5 channel the proccessor is doing artificial expansion and you probably don't like it. I don't like hearing 2 channel music converted to surround sound because it simply does not sound correct. For me it's a gimmick. - You have setup issues or matching issues in your surround sound setup. This could be due to numerous reasons - like poor speaker positioning, poor room acoustics, mismatched speakers, poor subwoofer bass management confiugration etc.
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Post by junchoon on Mar 4, 2019 17:24:41 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply
I listen to SACD 2.0 and 5.1
I set all speakers as large. No subwoofer.
Maybe it is because how SACD 2.0 are mastered to sound louder? Which give the impression that it sounded better.
Using XPA-5 for now and the watt per channels changes when total channels driven changes. I am sure a XPA-7 will be more drastic change in wattage.
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Post by garbulky on Mar 4, 2019 18:10:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply I listen to SACD 2.0 and 5.1 I set all speakers as large. No subwoofer. Maybe it is because how SACD 2.0 are mastered to sound louder? Which give the impression that it sounded better. Using XPA-5 for now and the watt per channels changes when total channels driven changes. I am sure a XPA-7 will be more drastic change in wattage. 2.0 isn't mastered to sound louder. You'll be using the same amounts of watts unless you are a real party animal. It could be any number of reasons. I have an XPA-1 gen 2 (which gives 1000 watts @ 4 ohms) for my speakers. But in reality i'm using 1 watt of power or a little less in terms of output. One time my friend got a large solid state macintosh amp.It was very expensive close to or over 10 grand I believe. It had power meters. And try as we could in a very large living room, we couldn't get the meter to budge past two watts of power. Now on peaks you can use more than that. But I think the whole we need "hundreds of watts for dynamic swings" is a little overrrated in real life.
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Post by junchoon on Mar 6, 2019 1:27:25 GMT -5
As u r using monoblocks your experience with my mch amp might not align
In any case I hope rmc-1 can provide a solution. Maybe via Dirac?
Thanks
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ukengb
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 5
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Post by ukengb on Mar 12, 2019 11:07:50 GMT -5
Here's the story.... Most surround sound formats, as recorded on disc, only support a single LFE channel... which may then be played through as many subs as you may have. However, the bass management for the other channels, which is handled by the processor, may support the option for "stereo subs". What this means is that, when bass management is enabled, the bass content that is redirected by the bass management is handled in stereo. (So, for example, if you have two subs, and small fronts, the LFE track will be sent to both subs, but the low frequencies from the FL speaker will go to the Left Sub, and the low frequencies from the FR speaker will go to the Right Sub.)
At least initially, the bass management in the RMC-1 will be configured to work according to the requirements of Dolby Atmos - which is as a single LFE channel. And the bass management portion that operates outside of Atmos will work the same way - so all subs will effectively be "multiple mono". (This means that, while things like EQ and room correction will be separate for each, they will all receive the same mono signal.) (Again, note that this is the way Dolby considers to be the right way to do it.) We may EVENTUALLY bring back the option of treating the bass-management portion of things as "stereo subs"..... However, at this point, we are not promising to do so, or saying when it might be implemented (it's "on the list").
"Pass Through On Standy", "Video On Standby", and "High Power Standby" all mean pretty much the same thing.
When this feature is enabled, when the RMC-1 is in Standby mode, it will continue to pass both audio and video directly to the TV via HDMI. This mode is intended so, for example, the family can watch the news on TV "without turning on the big stereo"; when the RMC-1 is in Standby the TV basically works like a "regular TV".
There are some limitations to this mode... and some issues which are currently being addressed.
CEC has always been, and continues to be, problematic between different brands and units. Exactly how CEC works depends on the options available in each unit, how they are configured, and the order in the various units have been turned on. If you look on the RMC-1, you'll find a single menu entry under SETUP | HDMI-CEC called "Enable". When that box is unchecked HDMI-CEC in the RMC-1 itself is disabled. When that box is checked, you'll see several other options, including "Audio to TV". Leaving the Enable box checked, but unchecking the Audio To TV box MIGHT prevent the TV from "stealing audio" from the RMC-1 while enabling other CEC features to still work.
(It's worth trying various options.) It's also worth noting that recent Oppo models are especially problematic in this regard because they identify themselves in the CEC hierarchy as processors when they have CEC enabled - which causes a sort of conflict.
As far as I can see, it is simply better to leave CEC OFF as otherwise the system has a mind its own and can sometime do what you do NOT want it to do and not be able to prevent it. I guess with the RMC-1 it'll be a classic case of 'suck it and see'. Regarding HDMI Pass Through on Standby, I understand how it can be useful and indeed wish to take advantage of it in exactly that way. The problem is I currently cannot and in fact cannot see how others are not similarly having the same problem. Which is... You would want the source configured to send multi channel audio (e.g. DD 5.1) to play back on your fabulous Home Theatre system, but the TV cannot handle DD, only stereo. So with the processor/amp on Standby, if it simply passes through the HDMI audio unchanged, there's no sound from the TV which makes this feature useless. Turn on the processor/amp and it deals with the DD audio so you hear it from the HT speakers. But if it's on Standby, no sound, so no use. It's as if the designers conjured up what would be a great feature with which to be able to market the device, but never really thought it through. If you only have your source device to output stereo, why would you have a HT system at all. You want a HT system, then HDMI Pass Through on Standby is useless unless your TV can handle multichannel audio. How many do that?. Or is it me. Is there something obvious I'm missing? In particular, does the RMC-1 incorporate anything to avoid this pitfall?
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edrummereasye
Sensei
"This aggression will not stand, man!"
Posts: 438
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Post by edrummereasye on Mar 25, 2019 8:42:41 GMT -5
As far as I can see, it is simply better to leave CEC OFF as otherwise the system has a mind its own and can sometime do what you do NOT want it to do and not be able to prevent it. I guess with the RMC-1 it'll be a classic case of 'suck it and see'. Regarding HDMI Pass Through on Standby, I understand how it can be useful and indeed wish to take advantage of it in exactly that way. The problem is I currently cannot and in fact cannot see how others are not similarly having the same problem. Which is... You would want the source configured to send multi channel audio (e.g. DD 5.1) to play back on your fabulous Home Theatre system, but the TV cannot handle DD, only stereo. So with the processor/amp on Standby, if it simply passes through the HDMI audio unchanged, there's no sound from the TV which makes this feature useless. Turn on the processor/amp and it deals with the DD audio so you hear it from the HT speakers. But if it's on Standby, no sound, so no use. It's as if the designers conjured up what would be a great feature with which to be able to market the device, but never really thought it through. If you only have your source device to output stereo, why would you have a HT system at all. You want a HT system, then HDMI Pass Through on Standby is useless unless your TV can handle multichannel audio. How many do that?. Or is it me. Is there something obvious I'm missing? In particular, does the RMC-1 incorporate anything to avoid this pitfall? I don't (so far) own an RMC-1. But as far as TV's go...I think the reason that *everyone* is not having this issue is that many, in fact I believe most, TVs on the market *do* handle DD at this point in time. At least in the US, a good deal of programming is broadcast in DD 5.1 (OTA and cable, and I'm sure satellite too). And I believe most TVs on the market now have the option of allowing the TV to process the DD and send it to the processor via toslink as well.
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