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Post by kkennally on Feb 20, 2019 11:37:04 GMT -5
Still finishing up a new system for music only (PT-100, CD-100, Airmotiv T1's) I only need to acquire the amp now. I have been debating the A-150 Vs A-300. My room is very small 14X14 with hardwood floors. I am still on the fence about the A-300 fan noise as my listening position is not far from the electronics.....So I am thinking A-150 now and then add a second A-150 so I can bi-amp the T1's. Any thoughts?
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Post by garbulky on Feb 20, 2019 12:36:54 GMT -5
Still finishing up a new system for music only (PT-100, CD-100, Airmotiv T1's) I only need to acquire the amp now. I have been debating the A-150 Vs A-300. My room is very small 14X14 with hardwood floors. I am still on the fence about the A-300 fan noise as my listening position is not far from the electronics.....So I am thinking A-150 now and then add a second A-150 so I can bi-amp the T1's. Any thoughts? FOR THE SAME PRICE as two A-150's - you really should get a pair of PA-1 amplifiers.
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Post by kkennally on Feb 20, 2019 12:51:10 GMT -5
I don't want to go the digital amp route.
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Post by garbulky on Feb 20, 2019 13:11:55 GMT -5
I don't want to go the digital amp route. Fair enough. I've always been hesitant of class D myself. But for me the PA-1 is a nicer amp than the A-150 and a-300 (and the XPA-2 gen 3) and sounds very close to my XPA-1 gen 2. As for bi amping. At this performance level, I wouldn't consider there being much of a difference to be honest. I have had read numerous reports of the A-300 series having fan noise trouble. But if those are your choices I would get the A-300 and call it a day. You might also be able to get by with just a single A-150 for the T1. Another option you ahve is to get used pair of XPA-100 amps or XPA-200 amps which I would prefer over the A-300. You should be able to get the XPA-200 for the price of the A-300 and the XPA-100 pair for the price of the A-150 pair.
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Post by kkennally on Feb 20, 2019 17:20:39 GMT -5
I gave Digital amps a try about a year ago with a Nuprime STA-6.....Was not thrilled. How would a single A-150 do running the T1's?
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Post by davidl81 on Feb 20, 2019 17:25:05 GMT -5
I gave Digital amps a try about a year ago with a Nuprime STA-6.....Was not thrilled. How would a single A-150 do running the T1's? I would get the A-300. The fan noise only happened to me one time, and that's because the the amp was left on for like three or four days straight. IMO if you got the A-150 you will always be wondering if something with a little more power would push the speakers better.
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Post by garbulky on Feb 20, 2019 17:36:35 GMT -5
I think in a small room the A-150's would be fine. I've run the Axiom M80s on the minix (the A-100's) before in a large room and they were nice. Not as good as XPA-2 gen 2's but still sounded good
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Post by donh50 on Feb 20, 2019 17:55:40 GMT -5
I can't imagine bi-amping will benefit. It does not double the power to the speakers, a common misconception, just splits the power into two bands. If you really need more power you need a bigger (higher-wattage) amplifier. That said it seems unlikely you'd need more power for a pair of T1's in that room...
I gotta' ask, with a set of Maggies, why T1's for music only? My Maggies did music only for ages then served well for HT as well.
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Post by kkennally on Feb 21, 2019 7:21:08 GMT -5
I can't imagine bi-amping will benefit. It does not double the power to the speakers, a common misconception, just splits the power into two bands. If you really need more power you need a bigger (higher-wattage) amplifier. That said it seems unlikely you'd need more power for a pair of T1's in that room... I gotta' ask, with a set of Maggies, why T1's for music only? My Maggies did music only for ages then served well for HT as well. This new system with the T1's is in my fathers house. I still have the (XPA-2, XSP-1,ERC-3 and Maggie system) in my listening room.
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Post by leonski on Feb 22, 2019 18:48:30 GMT -5
I can't imagine bi-amping will benefit. It does not double the power to the speakers, a common misconception, just splits the power into two bands. If you really need more power you need a bigger (higher-wattage) amplifier. That said it seems unlikely you'd need more power for a pair of T1's in that room... I gotta' ask, with a set of Maggies, why T1's for music only? My Maggies did music only for ages then served well for HT as well. right. the TRUE benefit of biamp is after you gut the speakers crossover and install a line-level crossover between preamp and the amp(s). the amount of real benefit also depends on the crossover frequency. This is a factor when you have idential amps for HF and LF. The 50:50 power point is about 350hz. At that frequency, with 'normal' music, the amps will run out of gas about the same time. My Maggies REALLY like HT duties. No problems in that regard. I could see setup being an issue IF you wanted 7,1, which would take a LOT of space......
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Post by donh50 on Feb 22, 2019 19:05:53 GMT -5
I managed to cram a 7.1 Maggie system into a not-large room (13'3" W x 17'7" L x 8'6" H). I had a pair of MG-IIIa's (old, yes, ca. 1988) for L/R, CC3 center, and four MC1's on stands against the walls for surrounds and rears. I did heavily damp the room to control some modes as well as kill the back waves from the mains to reduce comb filtering (which messes with the image and drove me nuts -- albeit a short drive). Sounded pretty good to me. My Pioneer Elite would drive them OK but I had already purchased power amps as my previous Sony would not.
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Post by leonski on Feb 23, 2019 1:33:59 GMT -5
I'm thinking minimum 3 series for fronts and 1.6 or 1.7i for surrounds. Center is 'up for grabs'. A couple DWM mid-woofers for lower midrange reinforcement and miminum of a PAIR of subs.......
Amp(s)? Depending on if Active LL Biamping or not? Maybe a pair of Parasound A31 for the front / center. And A21 / A23 for the rest. Crossover by MiniDSP 2x8, in multiples. Don't forget a Sub Panel for power. 3x20 amp circuits should be a reasonable start.
My original panels, MG-1 were nearly a decade older than your MG-IIIa. Didn't the MG-III have a ribbon?
With a larger room, you could have gotten a higher SPL due to much less damping AND had the fronts far enough from the front wall to avoid the effects you noted. 5 feet is considered a good place to start.
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Post by donh50 on Feb 24, 2019 12:27:50 GMT -5
I purchased a used pair of MG-I's in 1979. I had a variety of other speakers before then but those were my first Maggies. The III's and IIIa's both had ribbons; the I and II did not (there was a II-R, IIRC, but the price difference was small from the 2 to the 3 series; the Tympani's or 20's were 2x the price or more). There were some tweaks that significantly (to me) improved the IIIa over the III, and at the time I did not have room for Tympani's (and they were discontinued a few years later). I have lost track of the true ribbon introductions; the 3a, 20, and Tympani IV had them but I am not sure the order. I listened closely to the 20's but in the same room driven by the same electronics there was actually not much difference in their sound, especially with a sub. I purchased the MG-IIIa's in 1988 after obtaining my MSEE (a graduation gift from my wife and myself) and after a lot of auditioning of other speakers (B&W 801's, SoundLab, Martin Logan, and a few others I've forgotten were in the running for a while). The best sound I ever had from mine was in a large room with minimal treatment and the panels well out in the room. There were bi-amped (with a line-level crossover) with a tube (ARC D-79) on top and hybrid (Counterpoint SA-220) on the bottom. There were other SS amps that were frankly better but blending the relatively low-order crossovers Magnepan recommended (though I later went to higher order) was tough to achieve (this was long before DSP audio -- or any other -- processors were readily available). Flat panels like Magnepans and some ESLs radiate in a dipole pattern from the mid-bass up (depends on panel size) and so there is little interaction with the walls or floor/ceiling. Controlling the back wave to limit comb filter effects greatly improves the image. Unfortunately I have rarely had a room as big as I'd like so resorted to damping the back wave instead. Sitting only about 8' away obtaining an immersive experience was not a problem. I designed a servo-controlled subwoofer using a dual voice coil woofer from an Infinity IRS system and was very happy with the result. FWIW that whole mess was running on a single 15-A circuit and the only time I blew a fuse was when I had a small heater running and flipped on the power amp. That old ARC had wicked in-rush current. And I did not need the heater when it was on. I do not think any of the current Magnepans are provisioned for bi-amping. I have done it both ways through the years and prefer a single amp sufficient to run them without the extra hassle. I changed to Revel Salon2's a year or two ago and have been happy. They are not much more sensitive than the Maggies, and of course are a much more complex load, but are one of the few conventional designs I have felt sounded "right" especially transitioning among drivers seamlessly. If we ever go to a place with a bigger space for Maggies I may go back, but that's unlikely so the Revels are probably my last speakers -- retirement is coming, I hope!
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Post by leonski on Feb 24, 2019 16:52:01 GMT -5
X.7 Magnepan apparently ALL use a series crossover. I wouldn't know where to start to seperate the 'ways' for even a passive biamp. So the solution would be to bypass the crossover altogether and go to some 'active' solution. Good luck with crossover orders and slopes, not to mention driver phase! This would be a good project taking several months to resolve. I don't remember exactly, but Jim Winey made a deal with ARC to sell the original Tympani under that brand name. That's back in the 70s. If curiousity overcomes you, a terrific source of information is Magnepan Users Group (MUG) which has a timeline buried somewhere which will give range of dates for all models and variations. www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/articles/speakers.htmlI once had my MG1s in a HUGE room. The speakers backed into a pair of doors, one per speaker, leading into a dining room of good size. So much for time delay of the back wave. The remainder of the room? 2 stories with a long balcony. And a peaked ceiling. 4000 cubic feet or greater. But I was quite happy. I could sit 20' from the speakers and not have a reflective boundary near me....at least 10ms away, anyway, and the speakers were fine in that space. I was using a Carver Cube of 2x200@8ohms at that time.
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Post by donh50 on Feb 24, 2019 20:34:36 GMT -5
X.7 Magnepan apparently ALL use a series crossover. I wouldn't know where to start to seperate the 'ways' for even a passive biamp. So the solution would be to bypass the crossover altogether and go to some 'active' solution. Good luck with crossover orders and slopes, not to mention driver phase! This would be a good project taking several months to resolve. I don't remember exactly, but Jim Winey made a deal with ARC to sell the original Tympani under that brand name. That's back in the 70s. If curiousity overcomes you, a terrific source of information is Magnepan Users Group (MUG) which has a timeline buried somewhere which will give range of dates for all models and variations. www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/articles/speakers.htmlI once had my MG1s in a HUGE room. The speakers backed into a pair of doors, one per speaker, leading into a dining room of good size. So much for time delay of the back wave. The remainder of the room? 2 stories with a long balcony. And a peaked ceiling. 4000 cubic feet or greater. But I was quite happy. I could sit 20' from the speakers and not have a reflective boundary near me....at least 10ms away, anyway, and the speakers were fine in that space. I was using a Carver Cube of 2x200@8ohms at that time. I always used line-level crossovers, sometimes active, sometimes passive, and bypassed the internal crossovers (an external box in the case of the IIIa). I did leave the internal mid/tweeter crossover intact in mine though did modify it for tri-amping for others. My last scheme included an all-pass filter to help with phasing and time delay. Since Maggies did not have the complex impedance of conventional speakers phasing and such was not a big deal. These days it would be much easier using any room correction program (I have Dirac Live currently) or one of the stand-alone solutions (miniDSP, RaspberryPi with one of the audio programs, etc.) The MUG site is a great reference and I've used it for years. The timeline on the MUG site is not accurate for all models. I certainly don't claim to know all there is about Magnepan, but some of the models were and were not available when I was researching and auditioning. It is good as a general guideline. As for Magnepan and ARC, I've heard mixed reports of how close their alliance is these days. Certainly Jim Winey and Bob Johnson were close "back in the day" and there are adverts for both companies showing the other's products somewhere in my basement box stash. Ironically, although I owned a number of Carver-designed products over the years, and listened to all of them until getting out of the audio biz (no longer working at audio stores) in the late 1980's, but never cared for the Cube. The PL 700 I had sounded OK but was perhaps the most unreliable amp I ever owned (the 700a was a hair better, and the 700b significantly improved, but I had moved on by then). Bob Carver is still around making massive tube amps and some interesting line-source speakers these days. It is amazing just how good those little MG-I's could sound, and fill a large space, especially after I offloaded the deep bass to a subwoofer. Anyway, I've probably pulled this off-topic enough... - Don
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Post by leonski on Feb 24, 2019 22:21:39 GMT -5
Actually the REAL treasure from Bob Carver's past was the PL400, AKA 'Flame Linear'. Up to at least a few years ago? You could buy new driver boards and 'other' which fixed it.
Bob was really into 'adventure land' by the time he lost PL to his wife in a Divorce than went on to 'Carver' where he started up on the contest to come up with the most creativly named circuit.
Asymetric Charge- Coupled Detector? Sonic Hologram? Tracking Power Supply? Magnetic Field coil amplifier? And a bunch more, which I'm certain your familiar with.
I know my M400t was serious business. First? Amp had a 15amp fuse. For 500 bridged watts? And it emitted a 60 hz 'putt-putt' from the largish choke and SCR /Triac(?) PS. The amp
When pressed would dim the lights IN TIME to the music.
MUG has been vetted over the years by quite a number of people so I'll give it high marks, and IF and WHERE there are either inaccuracies or omissions? Shouldn't hurt the narrative at all.
If you want to go off line on this, feel free.
Bottom line for the OP? Don't bother.
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Post by kkennally on Feb 28, 2019 18:38:32 GMT -5
Finally got all components in and setup. I did go with the A-150 and it has plenty of power for the room it is in (And don't have to worry about little fans making noise). I have run into a little head scratching moment though...Why did Emotiva put only a trigger out on the PT-100 and CD-100 but a trigger in and out on the A-150??? Now I can't trigger the whole system from one remote???
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Post by donh50 on Feb 28, 2019 19:08:52 GMT -5
Triggers are generally used to drive power amps rather than low-level components.
A universal remote (e.g. Logitech Harmony) would solve the remote problem, or you could use a smart power strip.
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Post by boltman on Mar 14, 2019 13:37:38 GMT -5
I'm kind of in the same spot. I have low sensitivity Mirage M7si monitors and deciding between the A-150 or A-300 to replace my aging Adcom 535l. Room size is also fairly small 16'x12' maybe. The 60wpc Adcom has done a decent job with the hard to drive Mirages (4 ohm, 82db). But it's not enough to run my pre-amp in passive mode..which sounds best. The speakers are rated 50-175wpc max.All I really need is a solid 100wpc so the A-150 should do that.. ? Who has an A-150? Thanks!
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Post by leonski on Mar 15, 2019 20:25:14 GMT -5
People continue to refer to 'speaker watts' as if they HAD them. Speakers do not have watts. And unless the manufacturer is more forthcoming about HOW that measure was taken, presuming they are in some fashion referring to 'Maximum Power Handling' than I'd simply ignore the number and
go by Sensitivity and try to find out how bad a load the speaker is, by some measure of reactance. Stereophile takes this data in the current speaker reviews.
As for a new amp? The Adcom @60 watts was 'decent'. Ok, where was the lack? High levels? Poor musicality? Bad pace or rhythm to the presentation?
I personally would do Nothing Less than DOUBLE the existing power. That's 3db and will make a reasonable difference. All other things being equal, which the Never Are.
I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but those PA-1 monoblocks are a kick for the 300$ each. I don't think I'll regret saying that, either..........
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