Where's the RAAT?

[Soup]

Mar 16, 2019 22:49:44 GMT -5 MusicHead said:

What kind of Caat cable do you use for a RAAT ethernet transfer protocol?? 😁😁😁

The bigger the caat the better..........i personally have 3 differents caats.

[wilburthegoose]

Cat 5 works fine.

[wilburthegoose]

PS - you CAN use AirPlay for a WiFi connection. I think you can also use WiFi for a Raspberry Pi.

And getting to the original pose - Boom, you're making a mountain out of nothing.   This protocol works great, and you don't need a lot of $$ to enjoy it fully.

[klinemj]

Just for kicks, I was looking around and people are selling pre-built R-Pi's in custom cases for people who don't want to/are nervous to build them on their own. These are mostly for gaming/other applications, but - I'm sure if someone wanted to go into production with one as a streamer, there'd be buyers.

-->SEE EXAMPLES BY CLICKING HERE<---

Mark

[Boomzilla]

Mar 17, 2019 7:35:36 GMT -5 wilburthegoose said:

...Boom, you're making a mountain out of nothing.   This protocol works great, and you don't need a lot of $$ to enjoy it fully.

Hi wilburthegoose
I might partially disagree. The UP&P DLNA protocol DOES work mostly OK, but the server software (jRiver Media Center, in particular) has a nasty habit, when streaming via DLNA, of converting your CD-quality music to MP-3. It does this "in the background" and without notifying you that it's doing it. But the down-conversion is DEFINITELY audible. It used to drive me nuts - one evening, a particular cut would sound fine, but the next evening, the same cut sounded significantly less sharp. I thought it was just my perception for a long while. But THEN I was reviewing a component that displayed the type of file it was receiving over the Ethernet connection. And I noticed that sometimes I was getting 44.1 data, and other times (with the same source file) I was getting MP3!

So this was NOT my imagination - jRiver WAS doing periodic down-res of my files and without telling me. When I tried Roon, I didn't get any MP-3s showing up, which is what prompted me to move to Roon.

But my issue is not with Ethernet (DLNA or RAAT) - Either protocol CAN work OK, although RAAT seems to be the more secure & reliable of the two. Ultimately, you're mostly right - the difference between DLNA and RAAT is far more trivial than the difference between jRiver and Roon. But if I'm going to pay for Roon (and have RAAT available), I might as well try to use RAAT if I can.

Boomzilla

[DYohn]

If you use Roon you have no choice but to "use RAAT." Stop trying to compare a system like JRiver or iTunes to Roon or any other dedicated streaming system. It's apples and oranges.

[Boomzilla]

Are you sure of that, David? I don't think that my Oppo UDP-205 is "RAAT-compatible." I think (although I could be wrong) that it is a DLNA device only, despite being identified by Roon as a legitimate destination.

[DYohn]

Mar 17, 2019 10:37:15 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Are you sure of that, David? I don't think that my Oppo UDP-205 is "RAAT-compatible." I think (although I could be wrong) that it is a DLNA device only, despite being identified by Roon as a legitimate destination.

Your Oppo is Roon addressable. The Roon server uses RAAT and only RAAT to stream content to whatever source you are using. If it is fully Roon Ready then it takes full advantage. If not, like trying to use a DVD/BR player as a streamer, then you are getting only a compromised result.

Get a Roon Ready streaming player if you want to actually hear the full impact of the system. As long as you continue to try and band-aid together compromised solutions all of your opinions about the results are moot.

[Boomzilla]

OK - I'm confused - The Oppo is "Roon addressable" and uses RAAT? But it's not fully "Roon Ready?" What's the difference?

[DYohn]

You need to read some FAQs, but in a nutshell:
1) The Roon server uses RAAT
2) A Roon Ready device means it is certified by Roon to be fully compatible with the Roon environment, and the server can take advantage of the endpoint's capabilities to send data at the highest possible content quality. Most if not all of the processing that occurs happens on the server side.
3) Roon addressable means the endpoint device can be "seen" by the Roon server and player software and can receive data, however since it is not certified then the server may or may not be able to take full advantage of the RAAT processing capabilities, so what you get is a mixed bag in terms of content.
4) There are other endpoints such as LMS and Sonos devices that Roon server can also drive, and these cannot take advantage of the Roon processing at all.

[Boomzilla]

Thanks, David - I appreciate the clarification, and will do some more research.

[Boomzilla]

Having read the Oppo & Roon literature, both companies claim that the Oppo UDP-205 is "Roon-Ready." However, implementation of the RAAT features are left to the destination manufacturer. So, for example, the 205 will NOT play DSD files nor will it reproduce multi-channel information over Ethernet (despite what the Roon server is sending). Nowhere have I been able to find any documentation that the 205 uses RAAT despite being certified as "Roon-Ready" by both companies.

I do see claims that using the 205's implementation of audio over Ethernet sounds significantly worse than using a discreet endpoint (such as the UltraRendu or SOtM) played into the 205's USB input. Is this so? I'll have to try it to find out.

[DYohn]

If it's Roon Ready then yes, it is fully negotiating with the server as an endpoint to take full advantage of whatever capabilities the endpoint has. So whatever objection you have to the SQ is the result of using the Oppo.

I just read that the Oppo 203 and 205 are Roon Ready with the proper software updates from Oppo.

[Boomzilla]

My software IS the latest for the UDP-205. So here's what I think:

I'm currently using the 205 for two different functions - a Roon-Ready steamer input AND a DAC.

Since the DAC has not been to my complete liking, I'd like to use a different one.

So since the Oppo IS Roon-Ready (and therefore uses RAAT) - I could still use the Oppo as my streamer and take its coaxial-digital output into an external DAC (such as the Schiit).

In theory, since there would be no D-A/A-D conversions at all in the Oppo, this should not damage sound quality at all. Correct?

[DYohn]

Mar 17, 2019 12:30:40 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

My software IS the latest for the UDP-205. So here's what I think:

I'm currently using the 205 for two different functions - a Roon-Ready steamer input AND a DAC.

Since the DAC has not been to my complete liking, I'd like to use a different one.

So since the Oppo IS Roon-Ready (and therefore uses RAAT) - I could still use the Oppo as my streamer and take its coaxial-digital output into an external DAC (such as the Schiit).

In theory, since there would be no D-A/A-D conversions at all in the Oppo, this should not damage sound quality at all. Correct?

No idea what the Oppo does with signals internally. It's not a streamer: it is a BRD player with streaming capabilities.

[klinemj]

This is also a good read. I like the statement "Roon is plumbing".

-->CLICKITY-DOO RIGHT HERE!!!<--

Mark

[klinemj]

Given Oppo is a partner, I would imagine the Oppo is certified. I don't think they get listed here unless they are: -->Roon Partners<---

Mark

[Boomzilla]

Well, THIS gives pause:

"RAAT is built to evolve over time. We continue to improve the network protocol. We might decide to change the buffer size requirements on the device to increase stability. We might decide to build a second network protocol optimized for streaming over WAN, or something else like that. We give the same advice for users of Roon as we do to manufacturers building RAAT-based products: under-specced systems lead to bad user experiences; hardware is cheaper than ever and getting cheaper all the time; don't over-economize if you want the best result."

This is inherently contradictory gobbledy-gook from Roon. To claim that "hardware is cheaper than ever and getting cheaper all the time" immediately followed by "don't over-economize if you want the best results" is disingenuous at best, and downright fraudulent at worst. If one buys a "cheaper than ever" streamer now for somewhere between $700 and $5,000 - there's absolutely NO guarantee that the manufacturer will periodically update their device to keep up with Roon's changes to RAAT. I've found NO devices (other than DIY kludges) for less than $700 that claim to be Roon-Ready.

Does Roon REALLY consider that "cheaper than ever?" I don't.

Under the circumstances, Oppo DOES have a track record of updating their firmware (a trend that they've promised to continue) AND despite being primarily a disc player, they already ARE Roon-certified. I can think of no other streamer that would offer any better performance for the cost of my Oppo (already paid for). So my decision is made. Keep the Oppo & use it as a streamer with a higher-quality external DAC. Once I get the external DAC, I will also try the Sonore Microrendu to see if it offers any improvement - but I'm not really expecting much (if any).

[DYohn]

Boom, using terms like gobbledy-gook, disingenuous, and downright fraudulent shows me both that you just don't get it or you don't understand what is being said and as in most of your destined-to-be-epic posts you begin with your mind made up and your posting is masturbating in public to satisfy your own ego. Done. I'm done.

[Boomzilla]

And I always enjoy you too, DYohn!