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Post by wnydel on Apr 16, 2019 7:43:29 GMT -5
Being new to this, is there a quick breakdown on what the numbers mean?
What’s most important and what’s marketing fluff?
When I was last into speakers and sound, I was a teenage in the 80’s and it was all about wattage and brand name. If one system had higher wattage than another, it was better. At least that was the school of thought back then. I know that is far from the case.
So what do the important numbers all mean when comparing speakers?
Also, the one thing that comes to mind to me is sports analytics. For example, the NFL combine. It is seldom that the guy who is the fastest, strongest, etc. ends up being the best. Just looking at numbers isn’t cut and dry to tell you who is better. Humans are far more complex than speakers, but I have the feeling evaluating speakers isn’t as easy as just looking at number comparisons across the board and determine which will ultimately sound better between two choices. Is that a correct assumption?
Long story short, a quick cheat sheet of what means what and what to look for that isn’t confusing would be helpful to me. Hopefully to others reading this too.
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Post by brubacca on Apr 16, 2019 8:23:47 GMT -5
The numbers mean almost nothing. In fact, you have to be careful with Watts becausemany manufacturers outright lie about the Watts a receiver puts out.
There are many schools of thought... 1- Source first, buy the best source you can and work your way out to the speakers. Speakers are the least important expense because many very affordable speakers are very good.
2- Speakers first. Spend the most money on awesome speakers and get normal equipment to fill in the system.
3- Equal distribution of wealth.. Decide how much to spend and spend it evenly on source, amplification and speakers.
I am a big fan of #1. I have found that I enjoy my system more with a really good source and really affordable speakers.
Are you a internet direct guy completely relying on us here to tell you what to buy? Or are you a go to the dealer guy and buy something you have heard before and pay more for that service?
The absolute best place to start is having a budget.. Know how much you want to spend total for the system. Then what kind of music do you listen to? Possibly some here can give you some guidance. Are we talkjng about Home Theater or just stereo?
Are you opposed to buying used or clearance gear?
I could have you buy my exact system and you might not like it. One VERY important number is the efficiency of the speakers you get. Something below 88 is going to take a larger amplifier to sound its best.
Different manufacturers equipment sound very different. Its not a checklist its a living breathing conversation.
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Post by davidl81 on Apr 16, 2019 8:28:23 GMT -5
Speakers IMO are almost impossible to judge based on numbers. The only number that tells you much is the speaker sensitivity, since that number directly relates the level of dB reached with one watt of power. Thus the higher the sensitivity is on a speaker the less amount of power you need to drive it. Besides that most numbers are useless. May tower speakers will say the range of usable sound reproduction, ie 30Hz (deep bass) to 10kHz (highs), but those rating almost always have to be taken with a grain of salt since not all manufactures will say how the dB response is at those extreme levels.
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Post by davidl81 on Apr 16, 2019 8:35:39 GMT -5
Here are the specs on my Mirage speakers, and I will put an explanation on each line item.
Impedance 6 Ohms nominal / 3.5 Ohms minimum ----- (This is important as many AVR's are only 8 Ohm stable, and 4 Ohm speakers may cause them to overheat. Almost any separate amp is fine at 4 Ohms) Tweeter 1.1" (2.8 cm) Chambered Titanium Dome Frequency Response (Hz, +/-3dB) 25 Hz - 20 kHz (+/- 3dB) ------- (The range from deep bass to highs that the speaker "can" reproduce.) Useable Bass Response (-10db Anechoic) 18 Hz ------- (Deepest bass you can get from this speaker, note that this is a full 10dB lower than the rest of the volume the speaker produces) Room Efficiency 87 dB -------- (Most important number IMO to decide if you can run it with an AVR or if you need a separate amp. The higher the number the less power you need) Midrange 5.25" (13.3 cm) Multi-layer Carbon Fiber / Fiberglass Hybrid with Underhung Motor System Overall Dimensions (mm/in, HxWxD) HxWxD: 46.5 x 11 x 13 inches / 118.1 x 27.9 x 33 cm Woofer Two 8" (20.3 cm) Multi-layer Carbon Fibers Amplifier Power Output 50-300 Watts (unclipped) ------ (Almost pointless number. It's just an idea on what type of amp you can run on the speaker, but it does not mean much in the real world)
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Post by wnydel on Apr 16, 2019 8:45:40 GMT -5
The numbers mean almost nothing. In fact, you have to be careful with Watts becausemany manufacturers outright lie about the Watts a receiver puts out. There are many schools of thought... 1- Source first, buy the best source you can and work your way out to the speakers. Speakers are the least important expense because many very affordable speakers are very good. 2- Speakers first. Spend the most money on awesome speakers and get normal equipment to fill in the system. 3- Equal distribution of wealth.. Decide how much to spend and spend it evenly on source, amplification and speakers. I am a big fan of #1. I have found that I enjoy my system more with a really good source and really affordable speakers. Are you a internet direct guy completely relying on us here to tell you what to buy? Or are you a go to the dealer guy and buy something you have heard before and pay more for that service? The absolute best place to start is having a budget.. Know how much you want to spend total for the system. Then what kind of music do you listen to? Possibly some here can give you some guidance. Are we talkjng about Home Theater or just stereo? Are you opposed to buying used or clearance gear? I could have you buy my exact system and you might not like it. One VERY important number is the efficiency of the speakers you get. Something below 88 is going to take a larger amplifier to sound its best. Different manufacturers equipment sound very different. Its not a checklist its a living breathing conversation. I already got a receiver. It’s the Onkyo 686. I know it’s not great, but it was affordable. I plan on a mix of music and HT. I think I’m set on what I’m getting, but my wife may leave me lol. I was originally going to get Emotiva, after a ton of research and discussions. I still am. But here is where my wife comes in, since I like at least 3 manufacturers and it has been almost a dead-heat between the 3, I am going to set up three different rooms, instead of just one. I’m going to have my emotiva room first, then it may take me a year or so of saving/planning for the other two rooms (family room, rec. room and master bedroom). It’s those other two rooms that I have some time to see what I want to choose for them. I’m not opposed to used equipment at all, I can mention the other two companies, if that is allowed here? Or if there are additional/better choices for those rooms, I’m open to that too. Budget per room would be around 2-3k. I had thought of just going all in on one room, but I do like taking my time and having a variety of set ups.
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Post by wnydel on Apr 16, 2019 8:51:15 GMT -5
Here are the specs on my Mirage speakers, and I will put an explanation on each line item. Impedance 6 Ohms nominal / 3.5 Ohms minimum ----- (This is important as many AVR's are only 8 Ohm stable, and 4 Ohm speakers may cause them to overheat. Almost any separate amp is fine at 4 Ohms) Tweeter 1.1" (2.8 cm) Chambered Titanium Dome Frequency Response (Hz, +/-3dB) 25 Hz - 20 kHz (+/- 3dB) ------- (The range from deep bass to highs that the speaker "can" reproduce.) Useable Bass Response (-10db Anechoic) 18 Hz ------- (Deepest bass you can get from this speaker, note that this is a full 10dB lower than the rest of the volume the speaker produces) Room Efficiency 87 dB -------- (Most important number IMO to decide if you can run it with an AVR or if you need a separate amp. The higher the number the less power you need) Midrange 5.25" (13.3 cm) Multi-layer Carbon Fiber / Fiberglass Hybrid with Underhung Motor System Overall Dimensions (mm/in, HxWxD) HxWxD: 46.5 x 11 x 13 inches / 118.1 x 27.9 x 33 cm Woofer Two 8" (20.3 cm) Multi-layer Carbon Fibers Amplifier Power Output 50-300 Watts (unclipped) ------ (Almost pointless number. It's just an idea on what type of amp you can run on the speaker, but it does not mean much in the real world) This is great, thank you. The only thing I knew about was the ohms, only because I took a crash course in that when buying the receiver. Mine can supposedly handle 4, I hope it can, because the airmotivs need that. I haven’t ordered yet, so I haven’t put that to the test.
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Post by davidl81 on Apr 16, 2019 9:17:08 GMT -5
Here are the specs on my Mirage speakers, and I will put an explanation on each line item. Impedance 6 Ohms nominal / 3.5 Ohms minimum ----- (This is important as many AVR's are only 8 Ohm stable, and 4 Ohm speakers may cause them to overheat. Almost any separate amp is fine at 4 Ohms) Tweeter 1.1" (2.8 cm) Chambered Titanium Dome Frequency Response (Hz, +/-3dB) 25 Hz - 20 kHz (+/- 3dB) ------- (The range from deep bass to highs that the speaker "can" reproduce.) Useable Bass Response (-10db Anechoic) 18 Hz ------- (Deepest bass you can get from this speaker, note that this is a full 10dB lower than the rest of the volume the speaker produces) Room Efficiency 87 dB -------- (Most important number IMO to decide if you can run it with an AVR or if you need a separate amp. The higher the number the less power you need) Midrange 5.25" (13.3 cm) Multi-layer Carbon Fiber / Fiberglass Hybrid with Underhung Motor System Overall Dimensions (mm/in, HxWxD) HxWxD: 46.5 x 11 x 13 inches / 118.1 x 27.9 x 33 cm Woofer Two 8" (20.3 cm) Multi-layer Carbon Fibers Amplifier Power Output 50-300 Watts (unclipped) ------ (Almost pointless number. It's just an idea on what type of amp you can run on the speaker, but it does not mean much in the real world) This is great, thank you. The only thing I knew about was the ohms, only because I took a crash course in that when buying the receiver. Mine can supposedly handle 4, I hope it can, because the airmotivs need that. I haven’t ordered yet, so I haven’t put that to the test. I think the airmotiv speaker line is a good choice, its a lot of speaker for the money. They should run fine on your Onkyo, and then later you can add a more powerful external amp to really make them sing.
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Post by creimes on Apr 16, 2019 9:26:23 GMT -5
Take a look at the Chane A5.4, I have three A5rx-c and they are really great for the money and easy to drive, I have some T1 on the way for a separate 2ch system also I have been lusting after something from Tekton but being in Canada it gets very expensive with the exchange rate and shipping big speakers.
Chad
P.S. you can mention any brand you want here on the lounge
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Post by brubacca on Apr 16, 2019 9:48:37 GMT -5
ok.. One big number to pay attention to with speakers and receivers is the impedance rating. Since you are using a regular home theater receiver avoid speakers with a nominal impedance of 4 ohms. Receivers are usually rated for 6-8 Ohm speakers. This has no bearing on how it will sound, but you could damage or reduce the life of the receiver with 4 ohm speakers.
You should also be looking at manufacturers entry level products. They will sound better with a normal receiver (I use a normal pioneer at my TV so please don't think I'm being critical or snobbish).
For speakers I'd recommend Monitor Audio Bronze and Dali Zensor series based on personal experience. Go to a local place an listen to some options. That 686 Onkyo is rated at 100W for 2 channels driven. I coldn't find the all channels driven spec, but you should be careful here. Receivers in the past have dipped down to as low as 30W per channel with all channels driven. You should look for speakers with higher efficiencies (Something like 88dB and above, stay away from 85/86dB speakers as they are harder to drive). Of coarse you should get out to some stores and listen to some speakers.
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Post by brubacca on Apr 16, 2019 9:50:17 GMT -5
Here are the specs on my Mirage speakers, and I will put an explanation on each line item. Impedance 6 Ohms nominal / 3.5 Ohms minimum ----- (This is important as many AVR's are only 8 Ohm stable, and 4 Ohm speakers may cause them to overheat. Almost any separate amp is fine at 4 Ohms) Tweeter 1.1" (2.8 cm) Chambered Titanium Dome Frequency Response (Hz, +/-3dB) 25 Hz - 20 kHz (+/- 3dB) ------- (The range from deep bass to highs that the speaker "can" reproduce.) Useable Bass Response (-10db Anechoic) 18 Hz ------- (Deepest bass you can get from this speaker, note that this is a full 10dB lower than the rest of the volume the speaker produces) Room Efficiency 87 dB -------- (Most important number IMO to decide if you can run it with an AVR or if you need a separate amp. The higher the number the less power you need) Midrange 5.25" (13.3 cm) Multi-layer Carbon Fiber / Fiberglass Hybrid with Underhung Motor System Overall Dimensions (mm/in, HxWxD) HxWxD: 46.5 x 11 x 13 inches / 118.1 x 27.9 x 33 cm Woofer Two 8" (20.3 cm) Multi-layer Carbon Fibers Amplifier Power Output 50-300 Watts (unclipped) ------ (Almost pointless number. It's just an idea on what type of amp you can run on the speaker, but it does not mean much in the real world) This is great, thank you. The only thing I knew about was the ohms, only because I took a crash course in that when buying the receiver. Mine can supposedly handle 4, I hope it can, because the airmotivs need that. I haven’t ordered yet, so I haven’t put that to the test. Be careful with ratings. When I just looked at the Onkyo it said minimal 4ohm rating, that is not average 4ohm.
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Post by wnydel on Apr 16, 2019 9:58:02 GMT -5
Take a look at the Chane A5.4, I have three A5rx-c and they are really great for the money and easy to drive, I have some T1 on the way for a separate 2ch system also I have been lusting after something from Tekton but being in Canada it gets very expensive with the exchange rate and shipping big speakers. Chad P.S. you can mention any brand you want here on the lounge Chane’s and Ascend are the other two I was looking at. For the Chane’s, their A2.4’ across the front are what I was looking at. Although, they have a new larger center coming out this year, at some point. I have never heard of Tekton, I’ll check them out. Where are you in Canada? I grew up in Niagara Falls, NY, 10 minutes from the bridge. Canada was always a second home to me. A great best kept secret music scene too. I always got Canadian radio stations and got to be friends with several bands over there. I even dated a Canadian girl. Unfortunately, she lived a good hours drive one way, so I think that doomed what could have otherwise been a great relationship.
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Post by creimes on Apr 16, 2019 10:09:29 GMT -5
Take a look at the Chane A5.4, I have three A5rx-c and they are really great for the money and easy to drive, I have some T1 on the way for a separate 2ch system also I have been lusting after something from Tekton but being in Canada it gets very expensive with the exchange rate and shipping big speakers. Chad P.S. you can mention any brand you want here on the lounge Chane’s and Ascend are the other two I was looking at. For the Chane’s, their A2.4’ across the front are what I was looking at. Although, they have a new larger center coming out this year, at some point. I have never heard of Tekton, I’ll check them out. Where are you in Canada? I grew up in Niagara Falls, NY, 10 minutes from the bridge. Canada was always a second home to me. A great best kept secret music scene too. I always got Canadian radio stations and got to be friends with several bands over there. I even dated a Canadian girl. Unfortunately, she lived a good hours drive one way, so I think that doomed what could have otherwise been a great relationship. I'm in Brandon, Manitoba so yeah anything from the US gets really expensive here, main reason I purchased the T1 on Sunday was the 20% off so $398 is easier to swallow as it ends up being about $600 - $650 for me up here after 35 cent exchange rate and 13% taxes and duty and whatever fees UPS feels like charging me, I looked into Tekton Lore speakers but $1000 speakers end up being about $1800 for me so IMO that isn't worth it. Also if you are looking at the A2.4 and you need to buy stands i would just go for the A5.4 a difference of $160 per speaker it's well worth it Chad
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Post by wnydel on Apr 16, 2019 10:22:51 GMT -5
Chane’s and Ascend are the other two I was looking at. For the Chane’s, their A2.4’ across the front are what I was looking at. Although, they have a new larger center coming out this year, at some point. I have never heard of Tekton, I’ll check them out. Where are you in Canada? I grew up in Niagara Falls, NY, 10 minutes from the bridge. Canada was always a second home to me. A great best kept secret music scene too. I always got Canadian radio stations and got to be friends with several bands over there. I even dated a Canadian girl. Unfortunately, she lived a good hours drive one way, so I think that doomed what could have otherwise been a great relationship. I'm in Brandon, Manitoba so yeah anything from the US gets really expensive here, main reason I purchased the T1 on Sunday was the 20% off so $398 is easier to swallow as it ends up being about $600 - $650 for me up here after 35 cent exchange rate and 13% taxes and duty and whatever fees UPS feels like charging me, I looked into Tekton Lore speakers but $1000 speakers end up being about $1800 for me so IMO that isn't worth it. Also if you are looking at the A2.4 and you need to buy stands i would just go for the A5.4 a difference of $160 per speaker it's well worth it Chad Wow, is a lot of extra money you have to spend. I’m sure you are used to it, but that has to hurt.
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Post by wnydel on Apr 16, 2019 11:22:44 GMT -5
This is great, thank you. The only thing I knew about was the ohms, only because I took a crash course in that when buying the receiver. Mine can supposedly handle 4, I hope it can, because the airmotivs need that. I haven’t ordered yet, so I haven’t put that to the test. Be careful with ratings. When I just looked at the Onkyo it said minimal 4ohm rating, that is not average 4ohm. So I’m guessing I should stay away from 4ohm speakers until I get a better receiver?
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Post by brubacca on Apr 16, 2019 11:27:09 GMT -5
Favorite Canadian speakers - Totem Acoustic and Paradigm.
Can't go swing with either.
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Post by creimes on Apr 16, 2019 13:26:19 GMT -5
Get the T2 or T1 at the discounted price. They are both superb speakers. I haven't heard other speakers at the price they ask that get close to them. For specs: as people mentioned for the most part they lie heavily. However you can guarantee they don't do BETTER than the specs. So if they say the low end extension is say 40 hz, you can believe that that speaker is going to go no lower than 40 hz effectively. If it says it's a 4 ohm speaker, you can believe that an 8 ohm only amp would not do too great. That kind of thing. Poor advice given his receiver will have a hard time driving those speakers ??
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Apr 16, 2019 14:00:23 GMT -5
wnydelOn your 3 different rooms, will all be HT + music or will 1 be music only? If so...I'd strongly consider snapping up the T2's at the sale price now to the music room. There are many good amps you could get to drive them well, from Emotiva and others. What source will you be using for music? For music, do you only stream, only use CD's, or a mix? Mark
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Post by davidl81 on Apr 16, 2019 14:16:44 GMT -5
Get the T2 or T1 at the discounted price. They are both superb speakers. I haven't heard other speakers at the price they ask that get close to them. For specs: as people mentioned for the most part they lie heavily. However you can guarantee they don't do BETTER than the specs. So if they say the low end extension is say 40 hz, you can believe that that speaker is going to go no lower than 40 hz effectively. If it says it's a 4 ohm speaker, you can believe that an 8 ohm only amp would not do too great. That kind of thing. Poor advice given his receiver will have a hard time driving those speakers ?? Maybe Klipsch speakers would be good given they are so easy to drive. If you live close to a Fry's they very often run the tower speakers (RF-82 II) for a price close to the T1 or T2's.
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Post by wnydel on Apr 16, 2019 14:31:48 GMT -5
wnydelOn your 3 different rooms, will all be HT + music or will 1 be music only? If so...I'd strongly consider snapping up the T2's at the sale price now to the music room. There are many good amps you could get to drive them well, from Emotiva and others. What source will you be using for music? For music, do you only stream, only use CD's, or a mix? Mark All rooms will be a mix. At least that was my thought. But they are at a good price. I never looked at the Emotiva amps. I’m goibg to now. I usually stream, but I would get a CD player for quality purposes
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Post by garbulky on Apr 16, 2019 14:33:42 GMT -5
Get the T2 or T1 at the discounted price. They are both superb speakers. I haven't heard other speakers at the price they ask that get close to them. For specs: as people mentioned for the most part they lie heavily. However you can guarantee they don't do BETTER than the specs. So if they say the low end extension is say 40 hz, you can believe that that speaker is going to go no lower than 40 hz effectively. If it says it's a 4 ohm speaker, you can believe that an 8 ohm only amp would not do too great. That kind of thing. Poor advice given his receiver will have a hard time driving those speakers ?? ur right! My bad. Deleting my post
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