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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2019 22:36:40 GMT -5
I don't use zip cord any more, but have always been income challenged and learned to be very frugal and end up taking loads of time and research before making a buying decision. I don't mean in any of my posts to be unkind or ridicule others who have and do spend money on the best of all including cables, etc. I just put the largest percentage of my funds where I think it makes the most audible difference. I post my experience and opinions with a heavy dose of best buy advice and nutty humor that I learned from my very dry British/Welsh father. No offense ever purposely intended. (OK, well once in awhile it does one good to throw some friendly teasing at Boom and several other nice members.)
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Post by boomzilla on May 8, 2019 5:50:55 GMT -5
Boom gets his teasing the old fashioned way - he earns it!
LOL
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Post by donh50 on May 8, 2019 6:22:46 GMT -5
These threads never go well and I am sorry for my part in it. People will often hear a difference even when blind testing shows it to not be there. And there are differences among cables, just inaudible the vast majority of the time. Changing from a $10 run of cheap 12 AWG wire to a $1000 (or whatever) run of the same gauge I would put in the "inaudible" category unless there is something else in the cable (e.g. a Zoebel circuit) that modifies the frequency response. But I have seen cases where cheap 12 AWG cable was more like 14 or 16 AWG (which is still enough for most applications). If you have a long run to low-impedance speakers then changing from small zip cord to fat (high-diameter, low AWG) cables could make a difference. And so forth.
Both sides are absolutely certain in their positions, natch. My decades spanning years in the audio industry and many more as a working engineer have led me down one path and conditioned my viewpoint. Completely dismissing the other side even when it flies in the face of what I know to be provably true is something I should keep to myself. Especially since there have been times real issues were found to be solved. IME there has always been a measurable basis, however, when a difference was found. The other side is equally as dismissive of my experience with statements like "the science doesn't matter, you can't measure everything, I know what I hear, you can't hear well enough/your system isn't good enough" thus throwing out anything worthwhile decades of experience (audio and engineering) might provide. My earlier post of the subjectivist/objectivist debate was easy to write because it was based on real-life experiences. Nobody likes their belief system questioned.
In the end hopefully we all focus on the music. One of my other sayings is that "audiophiles listen to the gear, musicians to the music". As I've gotten older, and as I got back into music (playing and listening) after many years out, I find myself caring less about the gear and am (much) more likely to just want to sit and listen instead of fiddling with this that or the other and wondering "what if" for every piece of gear in my system.
IME/IMO/FWIWFM/YMMV/my 0.000001 cent (microcent)/etc. - Don
p.s. My system includes, among other things, an OPPO UDP-203, Emotiva XMC-1, XPA-2, XPA-5, 6x Revel Salon2, Revel Voice2, 4x Rythmik F12. No Atmos and the TV is just a 65" LG OLED. Various cables cheap and pricey'ish; none in the audiophile category (wasted all my money on speakers). Plebeian to some, ostentatious to others, but it works for me.
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Post by 405x5 on May 8, 2019 7:34:57 GMT -5
These threads never go well and I am sorry for my part in it. People will often hear a difference even when blind testing shows it to not be there. And there are differences among cables, just inaudible the vast majority of the time. Changing from a $10 run of cheap 12 AWG wire to a $1000 (or whatever) run of the same gauge I would put in the "inaudible" category unless there is something else in the cable (e.g. a Zoebel circuit) that modifies the frequency response. But I have seen cases where cheap 12 AWG cable was more like 14 or 16 AWG (which is still enough for most applications). If you have a long run to low-impedance speakers then changing from small zip cord to fat (high-diameter, low AWG) cables could make a difference. And so forth. Both sides are absolutely certain in their positions, natch. My decades spanning years in the audio industry and many more as a working engineer have led me down one path and conditioned my viewpoint. Completely dismissing the other side even when it flies in the face of what I know to be provably true is something I should keep to myself. Especially since there have been times real issues were found to be solved. IME there has always been a measurable basis, however, when a difference was found. The other side is equally as dismissive of my experience with statements like "the science doesn't matter, you can't measure everything, I know what I hear, you can't hear well enough/your system isn't good enough" thus throwing out anything worthwhile decades of experience (audio and engineering) might provide. My earlier post of the subjectivist/objectivist debate was easy to write because it was based on real-life experiences. Nobody likes their belief system questioned. In the end hopefully we all focus on the music. One of my other sayings is that "audiophiles listen to the gear, musicians to the music". As I've gotten older, and as I got back into music (playing and listening) after many years out, I find myself caring less about the gear and am (much) more likely to just want to sit and listen instead of fiddling with this that or the other and wondering "what if" for every piece of gear in my system. IME/IMO/FWIWFM/YMMV/my 0.000001 cent (microcent)/etc. - Don p.s. My system includes, among other things, an OPPO UDP-203, Emotiva XMC-1, XPA-2, XPA-5, 6x Revel Salon2, Revel Voice2, 4x Rythmik F12. No Atmos and the TV is just a 65" LG OLED. Various cables cheap and pricey'ish; none in the audiophile category (wasted all my money on speakers). Plebeian to some, ostentatious to others, but it works for me. Beautifully said! Revels with the XMC.....the embodiment of the things truly meaningful and useful in audio. Bill
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Post by amped on May 8, 2019 9:52:28 GMT -5
Ok so we get back on task a bit I do understand that these threads have been beat to death not just here but all my boards. However, in this case I am the Guinea Pig and not just standing on the sidelines shouting my opinions. I really have skin in the game my cash! As I have said I have for years I was in the "are you an idiot" camp...$2,500 for cables and I will tell you all I am STILL IN THAT CAMP regardless of discretionary income. In the case of these cables I would NEVER pay what cable companies want but when given the opportunity to make my own determination whether they make a difference for pennies on the dollar I had to jump on it. There was also a time that I thought that power filters/surge protectors or regenerators were all BS (snake oil) but I was waaaay wrong with that assertion! My first filtering system made an immediate impact and when I went to the PS Audio regenerator I was floored by the difference and it was easily tested as it has a remote and I could shut it off and turn it on at will and I can hear the difference and Bill this is only power so there is no signal bypass, just the way the gear sounds with "cleaned" power versus wall power it receives. I am sure it has a bigger effect on my finicky tube gear but regardless it works. I only bring that up to show that even I can be persuaded to change an opinion after a real-world test, and please no new threads on power we can start a new one if you like...
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Post by monkumonku on May 8, 2019 10:17:08 GMT -5
These threads never go well and I am sorry for my part in it. People will often hear a difference even when blind testing shows it to not be there. And there are differences among cables, just inaudible the vast majority of the time. Changing from a $10 run of cheap 12 AWG wire to a $1000 (or whatever) run of the same gauge I would put in the "inaudible" category unless there is something else in the cable (e.g. a Zoebel circuit) that modifies the frequency response. But I have seen cases where cheap 12 AWG cable was more like 14 or 16 AWG (which is still enough for most applications). If you have a long run to low-impedance speakers then changing from small zip cord to fat (high-diameter, low AWG) cables could make a difference. And so forth.
Both sides are absolutely certain in their positions, natch. My decades spanning years in the audio industry and many more as a working engineer have led me down one path and conditioned my viewpoint. Completely dismissing the other side even when it flies in the face of what I know to be provably true is something I should keep to myself. Especially since there have been times real issues were found to be solved. IME there has always been a measurable basis, however, when a difference was found. The other side is equally as dismissive of my experience with statements like "the science doesn't matter, you can't measure everything, I know what I hear, you can't hear well enough/your system isn't good enough" thus throwing out anything worthwhile decades of experience (audio and engineering) might provide. My earlier post of the subjectivist/objectivist debate was easy to write because it was based on real-life experiences. Nobody likes their belief system questioned.In the end hopefully we all focus on the music. One of my other sayings is that "audiophiles listen to the gear, musicians to the music". As I've gotten older, and as I got back into music (playing and listening) after many years out, I find myself caring less about the gear and am (much) more likely to just want to sit and listen instead of fiddling with this that or the other and wondering "what if" for every piece of gear in my system.IME/IMO/FWIWFM/YMMV/my 0.000001 cent (microcent)/etc. - Don
p.s. My system includes, among other things, an OPPO UDP-203, Emotiva XMC-1, XPA-2, XPA-5, 6x Revel Salon2, Revel Voice2, 4x Rythmik F12. No Atmos and the TV is just a 65" LG OLED. Various cables cheap and pricey'ish; none in the audiophile category (wasted all my money on speakers). Plebeian to some, ostentatious to others, but it works for me. Pardon me for editing the color of the text of your post, but while I agree with what you said, I especially agree with what I highlighted in red! And maybe that's the "problem" with some of these threads, that some folks get enjoyment from how good or accurate their gear sounds and that's what the real hobby is, whereas some folks enjoy the music and the emotional pleasure it brings, and one group is trying to influence the other. But others will say it is BOTH that they appreciate. Yes, but it seems to me that too many are so obsessed with the gear part that they can never truly enjoy the music part. Yesterday I was watching some YouTubes of Gene Krupa and other big bands from the 1940's. I really like that style of music. But I was thinking it would be nice if the fidelity was better, because the recording had a bunch of hiss, limited frequency range and was distorted. Likewise, the video quality left something to be desired. It's too bad that great music like that was played at a time when recording techniques were not like they are now. But I still really enjoyed the videos; the performances were so good that I stopped thinking about the technical qualities. Having grown up in the 60's and 70's, that's the music I am most fond of. Much of it was played on 45's on a record player and the whole thing left something to be desired as far as sound quality. Even back then I wished it sounded better. When I listen to the songs now, with their cleaned up/remastered versions on better equipment, the sound quality is definitely better but the music itself is unchanged. It's the memories and emotions that affect me. Some time ago there was a thread or threads in the Lounge about a CD package of 30's and 40's big band covers done by a modern group and how good it sounded, audio-wise. I bought those CD's and they do sound good but music itself just wasn't the same. It's like, it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. After listening and trying to like it, I got bored.
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Post by 405x5 on May 8, 2019 11:22:35 GMT -5
Ok so we get back on task a bit I do understand that these threads have been beat to death not just here but all my boards. However, in this case I am the Guinea Pig and not just standing on the sidelines shouting my opinions. I really have skin in the game my cash! As I have said I have for years I was in the "are you an idiot" camp...$2,500 for cables and I will tell you all I am STILL IN THAT CAMP regardless of discretionary income. In the case of these cables I would NEVER pay what cable companies want but when given the opportunity to make my own determination whether they make a difference for pennies on the dollar I had to jump on it. There was also a time that I thought that power filters/surge protectors or regenerators were all BS (snake oil) but I was waaaay wrong with that assertion! My first filtering system made an immediate impact and when I went to the PS Audio regenerator I was floored by the difference and it was easily tested as it has a remote and I could shut it off and turn it on at will and I can hear the difference and Bill this is only power so there is no signal bypass, just the way the gear sounds with "cleaned" power versus wall power it receives. I am sure it has a bigger effect on my finicky tube gear but regardless it works. I only bring that up to show that even I can be persuaded to change an opinion after a real-world test, and please no new threads on power we can start a new one if you like... I believe the main reason people fall victim to to a lot of this junk, is because they are unhappy with the sound of their loudspeakers. Perhaps wowed in the showroom, or wherever they were first heard.....in the only space that matters (YOURS) they just don’t shine the way you thought they would. That’s a tough nut; having to unload them and do it all over again, but sometimes that’s the best route to get closer to “Nirvana” Bill
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Post by 405x5 on May 8, 2019 11:36:12 GMT -5
These threads never go well and I am sorry for my part in it. People will often hear a difference even when blind testing shows it to not be there. And there are differences among cables, just inaudible the vast majority of the time. Changing from a $10 run of cheap 12 AWG wire to a $1000 (or whatever) run of the same gauge I would put in the "inaudible" category unless there is something else in the cable (e.g. a Zoebel circuit) that modifies the frequency response. But I have seen cases where cheap 12 AWG cable was more like 14 or 16 AWG (which is still enough for most applications). If you have a long run to low-impedance speakers then changing from small zip cord to fat (high-diameter, low AWG) cables could make a difference. And so forth.
Both sides are absolutely certain in their positions, natch. My decades spanning years in the audio industry and many more as a working engineer have led me down one path and conditioned my viewpoint. Completely dismissing the other side even when it flies in the face of what I know to be provably true is something I should keep to myself. Especially since there have been times real issues were found to be solved. IME there has always been a measurable basis, however, when a difference was found. The other side is equally as dismissive of my experience with statements like "the science doesn't matter, you can't measure everything, I know what I hear, you can't hear well enough/your system isn't good enough" thus throwing out anything worthwhile decades of experience (audio and engineering) might provide. My earlier post of the subjectivist/objectivist debate was easy to write because it was based on real-life experiences. Nobody likes their belief system questioned.In the end hopefully we all focus on the music. One of my other sayings is that "audiophiles listen to the gear, musicians to the music". As I've gotten older, and as I got back into music (playing and listening) after many years out, I find myself caring less about the gear and am (much) more likely to just want to sit and listen instead of fiddling with this that or the other and wondering "what if" for every piece of gear in my system.IME/IMO/FWIWFM/YMMV/my 0.000001 cent (microcent)/etc. - Don
p.s. My system includes, among other things, an OPPO UDP-203, Emotiva XMC-1, XPA-2, XPA-5, 6x Revel Salon2, Revel Voice2, 4x Rythmik F12. No Atmos and the TV is just a 65" LG OLED. Various cables cheap and pricey'ish; none in the audiophile category (wasted all my money on speakers). Plebeian to some, ostentatious to others, but it works for me. Pardon me for editing the color of the text of your post, but while I agree with what you said, I especially agree with what I highlighted in red! And maybe that's the "problem" with some of these threads, that some folks get enjoyment from how good or accurate their gear sounds and that's what the real hobby is, whereas some folks enjoy the music and the emotional pleasure it brings, and one group is trying to influence the other. But others will say it is BOTH that they appreciate. Yes, but it seems to me that too many are so obsessed with the gear part that they can never truly enjoy the music part. Yesterday I was watching some YouTubes of Gene Krupa and other big bands from the 1940's. I really like that style of music. But I was thinking it would be nice if the fidelity was better, because the recording had a bunch of hiss, limited frequency range and was distorted. Likewise, the video quality left something to be desired. It's too bad that great music like that was played at a time when recording techniques were not like they are now. But I still really enjoyed the videos; the performances were so good that I stopped thinking about the technical qualities. Having grown up in the 60's and 70's, that's the music I am most fond of. Much of it was played on 45's on a record player and the whole thing left something to be desired as far as sound quality. Even back then I wished it sounded better. When I listen to the songs now, with their cleaned up/remastered versions on better equipment, the sound quality is definitely better but the music itself is unchanged. It's the memories and emotions that affect me. Some time ago there was a thread or threads in the Lounge about a CD package of 30's and 40's big band covers done by a modern group and how good it sounded, audio-wise. I bought those CD's and they do sound good but music itself just wasn't the same. It's like, it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. After listening and trying to like it, I got bored. I once had the rarest of opportunity to see The Buddy Rich Orchestra perform at a place in Yonkers, not far from where Gene Krupa lived. ( his street is now named Gene Krupa Drive.) So anyway, Gene showed up at Buddy’s performance and sat in with his band.....what a treat. He passed away not long afterward. Yes.... I’ve dreamed about having today’s recording capabilities brought back to artists from years ago. Buddy used to joke about getting one of his records FREE with a tank of gas ⛽️ at your local station. A lot of his recordings sucked, but the musicianship was on the highest level. Bill
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Post by amped on May 8, 2019 11:36:46 GMT -5
I agree 100% it's about the music although I am not a musician (even though I do play guitar) it is, and always will be, about the music and the quest to have Rebecca Pidgeon, Mark Knopfler, Sade, Floyd, Fred Hirsch, Dave Brubeck, Led Zeppelin, Imagine Dragons or any other artist to sound as if they are playing in my listening room and frankly if the procurement of a piece of gear, cable, or a fresher vinyl pressing will help me get there I will do what I can $$$ to get it. Music has always been my "escape" it is a visceral experience for me so as long as my ears work I will pursue it.
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Post by pedrocols on May 8, 2019 11:55:41 GMT -5
I agree 100% it's about the music although I am not a musician (even though I do play guitar) it is, and always will be, about the music and the quest to have Rebecca Pidgeon, Mark Knopfler, Sade, Floyd, Fred Hirsch, Dave Brubeck, Led Zeppelin, Imagine Dragons or any other artist to sound as if they are playing in my listening room and frankly if the procurement of a piece of gear, cable, or a fresher vinyl pressing will help me get there I will do what I can $$$ to get it. Music has always been my "escape" it is a visceral experience for me so as long as my ears work I will pursue it. Ears or hearing will degrade considerably and there is nothing we can do about that. What you listened to 30 years ago will sound indisputably and objectively different today. Even listening to Mark Knopfler the other day in a TT and then watching a video of him currently playing and even him sounds different than back in the 80s.
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Post by donh50 on May 8, 2019 14:16:06 GMT -5
Off-topic: Tube components are often more sensitive than SS gear to the wall power for a lot of reasons. And the cost of better bias circuits is steep for the high-voltage circuits in tubes. To me it is still poor design practice, but tubes have a certain magic about them...
On-topic'ish: My current (Revel) speakers are much more sensitive to cables than my previous models (Magnepan) due to their wider impedance variation and low-impedance dips. Maggies are rather low in impedance and sensitivity (the Revel's are not highly sensitive, however) but the impedance is almost flat and resistive over the entire frequency range. Revel suggests less than 0.1 ohms (I think) for the speaker cables. Higher means some interaction with the crossover and that will tweak the frequency response. It is that sort of thing (seen over many years with many different speakers and amps) that I have found leads to changing cables changing the sound more so than any special properties (Zoebels excluded). So going from a very small cable to a very thick cable can have an impact, though IME much smaller than you'd imagine, and whether the cable is 8 AWG Cu Romex from Home Depot or 8 AWG fine-grained cryogenically treated bless-by-monks super-cable has not mattered IME.
That does remind me that tube amplifiers in general have much (order-of-magnitude) higher output impedance and thus are generally less sensitive to speaker cables than SS amps. And some SS amps that are marginally stable do not like some cables... Probably a few others here were at the late-70's/early-80's (I forget) CES where the Cobra Cable guy talked Infinity or Stax into hooking up their fancy new monoblocks with his cable. The cable was interwoven strands of small wire and very capacitive. There was a little squeak/squeal and two monoblocks sat on the floor dead. Too much for the amps and they oscillated into oblivion. As we all looked in disbelief the dealer/rep took a pair of wire cutters and cut the cables off the amp and speakers and handed him back to the cable peddler.
These days I can't really imagine that happening, fortunately.
Again IME/IMO/FWIWFM/etc. - Don
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Post by copperpipe on May 8, 2019 16:33:19 GMT -5
Both sides are absolutely certain in their positions, natch. The problem is, only one side is grounded in reality, science, and critical thinking. The other is just "wishing it were so". That's fine if you're on the "wishing side", personally, but this causes problems when you try and integrate your fairy tell thinking into the real world; the same people who are swayed by lack of critical thinking in audio, are more than likely the same people making bad decisions when it comes to vaccine's, or voting in elections. This has horrible implications, it's not just dropping a few bucks on magic wire, it never stops there because the person just doesn't "get it".
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Post by amped on May 8, 2019 17:23:41 GMT -5
Both sides are absolutely certain in their positions, natch. The problem is, only one side is grounded in reality, science, and critical thinking. The other is just "wishing it were so". That's fine if you're on the "wishing side", personally, but this causes problems when you try and integrate your fairy tell thinking into the real world; the same people who are swayed by lack of critical thinking in audio, are more than likely the same people making bad decisions when it comes to vaccine's, or voting in elections. This has horrible implications, it's not just dropping a few bucks on magic wire, it never stops there because the person just doesn't "get it". I was wondering how long it would take before some idiot crossed the line, got personal and equated a cable purchase with vaccinations, political affiliation and real world life decisions. As for critical thinking, I think if you employed some of that juju on your own you may have thought better than to hit that enter key and put your sophomoric, or should I say sophomoronic, ill conceived blanket statements regarding the integration of real world life altering choices and buying a speaker cable out there for all to see. BTW...Here is an interesting read for you to sharpen your own critical thinking skills:
Do you "get it"?
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Post by amped on May 8, 2019 18:59:49 GMT -5
Hello all tonight I will listen to: Rebecca Pidgeon: Raven SACD Dave Brubeck: Take Five Vinyl 45 Dave Matthews: Remember two things Redbook Pink Floyd: Wish You Were Here Vinyl
These are recordings I have logged 100s of hours and know every nuance...I will let everyone know tomorrow what I'm think regarding the Cables and their influence on my listening experience.
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Post by copperpipe on May 8, 2019 20:07:37 GMT -5
The problem is, only one side is grounded in reality, science, and critical thinking. The other is just "wishing it were so". That's fine if you're on the "wishing side", personally, but this causes problems when you try and integrate your fairy tell thinking into the real world; the same people who are swayed by lack of critical thinking in audio, are more than likely the same people making bad decisions when it comes to vaccine's, or voting in elections. This has horrible implications, it's not just dropping a few bucks on magic wire, it never stops there because the person just doesn't "get it". I was wondering how long it would take before some idiot crossed the line, got personal and equated a cable purchase with vaccinations, political affiliation and real world life decisions. As for critical thinking, I think if you employed some of that juju on your own you may have thought better than to hit that enter key and put your sophomoric, or should I say sophomoronic, ill conceived blanket statements regarding the integration of real world life altering choices and buying a speaker cable out there for all to see. BTW...Here is an interesting read for you to sharpen your own critical thinking skills:
View Attachment Do you "get it"?
Golly...
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Post by donh50 on May 8, 2019 21:34:43 GMT -5
One thing I found helpful in auditions was to listen to the new gear, take notes about new things, then switch back to the old and see if I noticed the same things. A lot of times the more intense focus would lead me to find all sorts of things I'd never heard before, only to revisit the previous setup and find it was there all along. Not always the same, natch.
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Post by 405x5 on May 9, 2019 7:19:14 GMT -5
The problem is, only one side is grounded in reality, science, and critical thinking. The other is just "wishing it were so". That's fine if you're on the "wishing side", personally, but this causes problems when you try and integrate your fairy tell thinking into the real world; the same people who are swayed by lack of critical thinking in audio, are more than likely the same people making bad decisions when it comes to vaccine's, or voting in elections. This has horrible implications, it's not just dropping a few bucks on magic wire, it never stops there because the person just doesn't "get it". I was wondering how long it would take before some idiot crossed the line, got personal and equated a cable purchase with vaccinations, political affiliation and real world life decisions. As for critical thinking, I think if you employed some of that juju on your own you may have thought better than to hit that enter key and put your sophomoric, or should I say sophomoronic, ill conceived blanket statements regarding the integration of real world life altering choices and buying a speaker cable out there for all to see. BTW...Here is an interesting read for you to sharpen your own critical thinking skills:
View Attachment Do you "get it"?
I agree here with amped, in the sense that it’s unnecessary to go down that road of comparing our toys (too often we forget that’s all they are).... to critical thinking regarding important aspects of our lives. Bill
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Post by amped on May 9, 2019 9:33:53 GMT -5
I agree 100% it's about the music although I am not a musician (even though I do play guitar) it is, and always will be, about the music and the quest to have Rebecca Pidgeon, Mark Knopfler, Sade, Floyd, Fred Hirsch, Dave Brubeck, Led Zeppelin, Imagine Dragons or any other artist to sound as if they are playing in my listening room and frankly if the procurement of a piece of gear, cable, or a fresher vinyl pressing will help me get there I will do what I can $$$ to get it. Music has always been my "escape" it is a visceral experience for me so as long as my ears work I will pursue it. Ears or hearing will degrade considerably and there is nothing we can do about that. What you listened to 30 years ago will sound indisputably and objectively different today. Even listening to Mark Knopfler the other day in a TT and then watching a video of him currently playing and even him sounds different than back in the 80s. Tell me about it! My wife and I recently paid a pretty penny to see Jackson Browne in concert locally (she is a huge JB fan) and to say that he was really struggling with his voice would be an understatement, he actually just stopped attempting a few songs but I think we just wanted to see him anyway so it was no big deal...However he should have named this tour "The Now I'm Really Running on Empty Tour" !
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Post by tropicallutefisk on May 9, 2019 9:55:37 GMT -5
"I agree here with amped, in the sense that it’s unnecessary to go down that road of comparing our toys (too often we forget that’s all they are).... to critical thinking regarding important aspects of our lives." How true. To me, the fun in this hobby is learning new things, trying new things and just enjoying how far I've come from my $50 1986 Pioneer Receiver with a pair of Sears "3 Way" speakers. Its really of no matter to me what others think of my set up or what specs a particular piece has. If I enjoy it, that's good enough for me. Same goes for my taste in music
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,929
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Post by KeithL on May 9, 2019 11:44:24 GMT -5
I'm going to try to avoid becoming involved in the main part of this discussion. However, I do believe that it's just plain foolish to attempt to figure out what's going on without understanding at least some of the science, and confirming that it makes sense. For example.... Assuming we're talking about copper, and the same length, and the same basic sort of wire, fatter speaker wires (with a lower gauge), will have lower resistance. This difference is measurable, can be easily measured and confirmed to exist, and can reasonably be expected to be an improvement. (A theoretically perfect speaker connection would have no resistance - so a wire with lower resistance approaches that goal more closely.) Therefore, whether you or I can hear a difference, at least theoretically, a fatter speaker cable will always be better.
However, if we start looking at more exotic designs, like litz wire, or coaxial cable (for speaker wires), we have a very different situation. A speaker cable made out of litz wire, or coaxial cable, may have slightly better frequency response at very high frequencies. However, as a tradeoff, it almost certainly also has much higher capacitance than ordinary zip cord.
And, as it so happens, too much capacitance will cause many amplifiers to exhibit higher levels of THD at high frequencies. And, at the same time, there is no potential benefit whatsoever to a speaker wire with higher capacitance.
In other words, in contrast to a fatter cable, which may help or may not, but almost certainly won't hurt, a litz wire may actually DEGRADE the performance in some cases.
So, in that case, the science tells us that, if we do actually hear a difference, it may quite possibly be due to the signal being damaged rather than improved. (There was a very famous "high-end speaker cable" many years ago that made a very significant difference - it caused amplifiers to blow fuses.)
And, yes, this does lead to the matter of credibility at some level. To pick a rather humorous, but not altogether more absurd, example. If you were to be offered an opportunity to test out a new process for "making drinking water taste better" you might be willing to give it a try. And you might still feel the same way, even if no details were provided, or if the details were complex and incomprehensible to you. For example: "We enhance the flavor of the water in every bottle by adding carefully hand-metered quantities of specially selected, biologically derived, urea based additives". But, would you be equally willing to try a bottle, after doing some actual research, and finding out that's just a very scientific way of saying "I piss into the bottles"? Or would you, just maybe, after understanding the technology involved, decide that it seemed unlikely to make a positive improvement after all...
(Note that I deliberately chose a rather vague description - which could, in fact, be used to describe other processes that might actually result in some benefit.) My point is simply that "not all claims are created equal"...
Which is why it DOES help to have some scientific background that will at least sometimes help you separate the reasonable claims from the unreasonable claims.
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