klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 16, 2019 12:47:37 GMT -5
As I see it the question (and the available answers) were slanted to give a particular result. Specifically to exclude people who had tried tube amps, didn't like them, moved to sold state and were happier with the result. That may have been deliberate or an accident, but it doesn't matter , as either way that is the result that was achieved. Cheers Gary Actually, I did a lot of consumer research for a living, and in that I wrote a lot of questionnaires. The questions are actually quite well balanced in number and phrasing. The 1st two deal with owners/acceptors, the last 2 deal with with non-owners/non-acceptors, and the middle one is the middle ground position that starts with the phrase indicating non-owner. Very balanced and equal. As such, it's a bit surprising that the top choice is currently leading over the bottom on a forum for a company who makes no tube gear. Mark
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 16, 2019 13:07:33 GMT -5
Absolutely agreed.... but.... I don't think anybody is suggesting that the differences are limited to measurements. I would say that virtually everyone who prefers tubes does in fact claim to hear a difference.
Tube amps costs a lot more than solid state amps with similar or better measurements, are less efficient, and require more maintenance.
Therefore, if there was no audible difference, then there's no reason why anybody would pay all that extra money for tubes. For a while Emotiva owned Bob Carver's tube amplifier line, and we had plenty of opportunity to compare them to our solid state amps. The big Carver monoblocks had plenty of power, relatively low distortion, and relatively high damping factor... for tube amps... which put them "closer to solid state" than a lot of other tube gear.
However, they did in fact sound quite different than solid state gear, and the difference was not what I would call subtle at all. (It was more along the lines of.... "Gee... is that a different amp or is there something wrong with the speaker?")
Note that tube power amps have a very low damping factor compared to solid state amps - which makes their delivery of low bass quite different because of how they interact with the speaker. However, the differences between tube and solid state preamps, and other line level gear, is often a lot less obvious. Perception & personal bias is an issue for sure but there's no denying tube amps & preamps do sound different than SS gear,better or worse is for the listener to decide but we can't just blow off tubes as perception & pride when measurable audible differences can be shown. The problem is most of simply cannot hear “measurable” difference. I’m not making an argument one way or the other. I’d just be really surprised to see someone in a blind audition say “it’s tubes, definitely”. I really doubt that’s the case. Now A/B between SS and Tube and maybe then yeah
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 16, 2019 13:38:28 GMT -5
I think you will find that it has a lot to do with self-selection. The poll actually included the term "vacuum tube amplifiers" in the title. This title, by its choice of wording, does little or nothing to encourage people who are not interested in tube gear to read or respond to it. This actually applies a strong bias in favor of people who "still consider tube equipment interesting".
Very few people who aren't interested in tube gear bothered to answer, or even read, the questionnaire.
And, when they did, it then failed to offer any choices that would apply to people who "tried it and got rid of it because they didn't like it". (So, to me, it seemed very specifically like a poll about how many people are considering buying tube equipment... rather than how people felt about it.)
As Gary said.... how you interpret the choice of questions is itself open to interpretation. However, to me, it seemed odd that there were no options at all for "don't like tube equipment". And, in the interest of completeness, I would be interested to know how many people have tried it, DIDN'T like it... and why. (For example, how many people didn't hear any difference, how many heard a difference and didn't like it, and how many heard a difference, liked it somewhat, but didn't find that it justified the cost.)
As I see it the question (and the available answers) were slanted to give a particular result. Specifically to exclude people who had tried tube amps, didn't like them, moved to sold state and were happier with the result. That may have been deliberate or an accident, but it doesn't matter , as either way that is the result that was achieved. Cheers Gary Actually, I did a lot of consumer research for a living, and in that I wrote a lot of questionnaires. The questions are actually quite well balanced in number and phrasing. The 1st two deal with owners/acceptors, the last 2 deal with with non-owners/non-acceptors, and the middle one is the middle ground position that starts with the phrase indicating non-owner. Very balanced and equal. As such, it's a bit surprising that the top choice is currently leading over the bottom on a forum for a company who makes no tube gear. Mark
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 16, 2019 14:16:41 GMT -5
I think you will find that it has a lot to do with self-selection. The poll actually included the term "vacuum tube amplifiers" in the title. This title, by its choice of wording, does little or nothing to encourage people who are not interested in tube gear to read or respond to it. This actually applies a strong bias in favor of people who "still consider tube equipment interesting".
Very few people who aren't interested in tube gear bothered to answer, or even read, the questionnaire.
And, when they did, it then failed to offer any choices that would apply to people who "tried it and got rid of it because they didn't like it". (So, to me, it seemed very specifically like a poll about how many people are considering buying tube equipment... rather than how people felt about it.)
As Gary said.... how you interpret the choice of questions is itself open to interpretation. However, to me, it seemed odd that there were no options at all for "don't like tube equipment". And, in the interest of completeness, I would be interested to know how many people have tried it, DIDN'T like it... and why. (For example, how many people didn't hear any difference, how many heard a difference and didn't like it, and how many heard a difference, liked it somewhat, but didn't find that it justified the cost.)
All due respect Keith, but this poll has NOTHING to do with "liking". Are you an expert in consumer research methodology? Well, I am. There are different kinds of polls. Some are about liking vs. disliking something (and/or degree thereof.) This poll's topic is NOT liking/disliking. It's about "owning/using" tube amps vs. "not" If you are trying to read into this poll that it's about liking, well...might want to brush up on your reading skills. You want to find out how much "liking" there there? Start a poll on that. For a minimal fee, I'll draft the questions for you in a professional manner. Mark
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 16, 2019 14:19:12 GMT -5
Very few people who aren't interested in tube gear bothered to answer, or even read, the questionnaire. I would love to see your proof of this statement. LOL! Mark
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Post by audiobill on May 16, 2019 14:48:07 GMT -5
Is there anything the “guru” isn’t expert in lol!?l
From the urban dictionary:
“Guru: a frequent or favorite companion who causes extreme love and adoration in the heart of their admirer - side effects may include emotional breakdowns, depression, sleep deprivation, spotty eating habits, weight loss, excessive distress, French sobbing noises, extra anxiety.”
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geebo
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Post by geebo on May 16, 2019 15:33:55 GMT -5
I agree that the wording of the survey precludes a good sampling of readers particularly if they don't have or want tube gear. I suspect if everyone on the Lounge responded the bottom bar would be much longer.
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Post by Loop 7 on May 16, 2019 17:20:26 GMT -5
I regret creating this poll.
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Post by monkumonku on May 16, 2019 17:29:04 GMT -5
I regret creating this poll. Well what did you expect?
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Post by Raven on May 16, 2019 18:55:57 GMT -5
I regret creating this poll. Well what did you expect? Yea. nothing new. KeithL again and again talking how much he hates tubes and loves SS amp's specs.
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Post by pop on May 16, 2019 19:03:24 GMT -5
Honestly who cares? This forum is extremely quiet these days, anything is better than nothing. 😂
You make a thread asking about what people like, and you’re going to get opinions. Some you aren’t going to like, some you will, and some way off topic.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 16, 2019 19:36:17 GMT -5
I regret creating this poll. It's a good poll and thread. Maybe Keith might understand the poll better if you edited the first post's thread title and made it "Do you own a Tube Amp/Preamp or Not?" He'll still tell us all the reasons we shouldn't like them, of course. (Just like he did in threads about things like the Rendu and SoTM products...) Mark (PS: I don't like my tube amps. I love them.)
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Post by bluemeanies on May 16, 2019 19:53:28 GMT -5
Great thread Loop7!! Stir the pot..LOL
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Post by Loop 7 on May 16, 2019 23:57:00 GMT -5
If I were to recreate this poll, here my best shot: - I currently own a tube amp or preamp and listen to it on a regular basis
- I currently own a tube amp or preamp but I do NOT listen to it on a regular basis
- I don't own a tube amp or preamp but I'm planning to at some point
- I don't own a tube amp or preamp but I'm curious about them
- I used to own a tube amp but I got rid of it because I prefer solid state amplifiers
- I've heard tube amps and I never liked their sound
- I don't own a tube amp or preamp and I don't have plans to ever own one
- Emotiva does not design nor manufacture tube amplifiers so this poll should never have been posted
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Post by bluemeanies on May 17, 2019 3:48:29 GMT -5
If I were to recreate this poll, here my best shot: - I currently own a tube amp or preamp and listen to it on a regular basis
- I currently own a tube amp or preamp but I do NOT listen to it on a regular basis
- I don't own a tube amp or preamp but I'm planning to at some point
- I don't own a tube amp or preamp but I'm curious about them
- I used to own a tube amp but I got rid of it because prefer solid state amplifiers
- I've heard tube amps and I never liked their sound
- I don't own a tube amp or preamp and I don't have plans to ever own one
- Emotiva does not design nor manufacture tube amplifiers so this poll should never have been posted
Loop7...the poll you started is just fine, there is nothing wrong with it. Why would you think of giving in to narrow minded people. The I thought was essentially for people who own or did own tube amplifiers...why do people turn into snowflakes? There have been many a poll on this forum that was solely related to SS. I was never offended nor did I think the poll should have been changed to my liking. It was your poll Loop7...it belongs to you. If it were my poll and someone introduced a question just to appease themselves or a special group I would have told them not to participate and move on. This is an open forum as far as I understood it. Simply put on this one Keith was out of line IMO.
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Post by pop on May 17, 2019 8:51:46 GMT -5
Things I learned from this thread.
1.) if you’re using tubes you wasted your money. Unless you spent thousands to get close to SS, and then why would you do that anyways? 2.) the sound tubes make is so disgusting some people will walk out of the room. “$100,000 speakers, nope sounds like tube poop. I’m out” 3.) Keith L is “solid state man” and tubes are his kryptonite 4.) Soon Keith Ls nemesis will own Emotiva and produce tube only equipment forcing Keith into an abandoned 4,000,000 kilowatt SS amplifier where he will feed off of this massive power source and return to save all of the lounge members from the evil Tubey sounds. 5.) if coloration is so bad, then why do the world best guitarists use pedals to distort the sound of their $10,000 guitars? Sorry I didn’t learn that, I just realized I had a question. Carrying on. Wait is distortion bad??? 6.) but really, why #5? 7.) just having fun this morning. No disrespect. Cheers
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Post by mgbpuff on May 17, 2019 9:41:39 GMT -5
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Post by pedrocols on May 17, 2019 9:54:14 GMT -5
Yes he seems to have a simple approach to amp design. I recently built his B1 buffer to use with a passive preamp and it performs pretty well. It is pretty cheap to build it considering I the OEM product IIRC sold for almost 1k.
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Post by mgbpuff on May 17, 2019 10:14:07 GMT -5
Yes he seems to have a simple approach to amp design. I recently built his B1 buffer to use with a passive preamp and it performs pretty well. It is pretty cheap to build it considering I the OEM product IIRC sold for almost 1k. His assertion that sound in air is essentially single ended is interesting.
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Post by cheapthryl on May 17, 2019 11:24:35 GMT -5
If I connect hundreds of brands speakers up to any system, being tube or SS. They will most definitely sound different. Therefore my conclusion is ALL reproduced music is coloured.
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