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Post by lehighvalleyjeff on May 17, 2019 22:21:20 GMT -5
Is it possible that the way we perceive micro details and harmonics in sound might differ based upon personal preference or flavor? I’ve heard both sides of this argument countless times. In the end two amps might have similar specs on paper and for any myriad of reasons person 1 might love it while person 2 thinks it sounds lousy. Sonic purity is an intangible destination in home audio that many of us might never achieve and frankly that’s probably a good thing for the industry. If we only reproduce sound with one type of gear it becomes boring and there’s no longer a need for competitive research because every amplifier has the same specs and sound. Simply an inaccurate statement on its face because we all have preferences in how we like to hear music. And they differ and that’s ok. Tubes or solid state? Vanilla or Chocolate? Neither is right or wrong or more close to accurate as a general statement. Just different flavors Distortion while differing from the source might sound preferable to some and objectionable to others. Go figure.
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Post by monkumonku on May 17, 2019 23:01:26 GMT -5
Regarding the XMC-1, modularity was the promise made. On the other hand, we know upgrades would not be free, and neither would they be inexpensive. The plan to offer a trade-in of the XMC-1 to the XMC-2 to me is quite a bargain, considering all of the upgrades included. Perhaps you can look at it as them making one big modular replacement - you send them your old unit and they upgrade all of the boards and even supply a new chassis and case. The problem is I currently have no need whatsoever for the XMC2. But they have stamped it as a limited time deal. I don’t feel like I should have to fork over the cash for what I don’t need currently. What happens in another year or 2 when I upgrade to a 4K projector? Is my XMC still valid for upgrades? You don’t sell a unit on the promise of future upgrade and then deplete it from the lineup. Of course I could be jumping to conclusions, but can dan promise me my XMC will be available for updates in 2 years plus? Well that's true regarding the timing of your purchase and providing some flexibility over that timing. But on the other hand, what if the upgrades were dependent upon each other? That is, if in year 1 upgrade "A" was released and then in year 2, upgrade "B" was released but "B" needed "A" in order to function properly. So you would wind up having to get a cumulative upgrade which would probably mean incurring the expense for both, rather than being able to pick and choose which one you wanted. And as Geebo pointed out, the upgrades may not be around forever, either. I understand your point but on the other hand Emo has to plot a course among various alternatives that for them makes the most business sense.
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Post by pop on May 17, 2019 23:27:49 GMT -5
The problem is I currently have no need whatsoever for the XMC2. But they have stamped it as a limited time deal. I don’t feel like I should have to fork over the cash for what I don’t need currently. What happens in another year or 2 when I upgrade to a 4K projector? Is my XMC still valid for upgrades? You don’t sell a unit on the promise of future upgrade and then deplete it from the lineup. Of course I could be jumping to conclusions, but can dan promise me my XMC will be available for updates in 2 years plus? Well that's true regarding the timing of your purchase and providing some flexibility over that timing. But on the other hand, what if the upgrades were dependent upon each other? That is, if in year 1 upgrade "A" was released and then in year 2, upgrade "B" was released but "B" needed "A" in order to function properly. So you would wind up having to get a cumulative upgrade which would probably mean incurring the expense for both, rather than being able to pick and choose which one you wanted. And as Geebo pointed out, the upgrades may not be around forever, either. I understand your point but on the other hand Emo has to plot a course among various alternatives that for them makes the most business sense. Sure possibly. But I don’t see how an HDMI board would be reliant on a previous HDMI board. That’s the only thing constantly changing is video. I see the point you’re making. But my impression was “buy a fully modular upgradeable processor so you don’t have to keep changing when video changes” which is exactly how they sold it. I hope they keep up that end of the bargain. Did Emotiva ever state how the upgrades would Have to be performed? Like A-B-C? I love Emotiva products as much as the other guy. The company makes some silly moves I don’t understand, but I digress. Oh yeah, I’m loving my tube amps btw. 🤪
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Post by Raven on May 18, 2019 9:39:11 GMT -5
I'm sorry audiobill...
We can't please everyone.
Perhaps I should rephrase that: "We always do our best to design and manufacture products that will appeal to a significant number of current and future customers." We are a commercial company, and not a boutique audio shoppe, so we do have to stick with products we can sell a significant number of. Unfortunately, as it turned out, while there may be enough of a market for those Carver tube amps to keep Bob fed, it wasn't enough to justify a product line for us.
You may also be surprised to know that there are still a lot of standalone DACs that don't do streaming. (Although the number still around in our normal target price range is slowly dwindling.) I can't say much about big heavy power supplies... except that they are in fact big and heavy...
However, even many of our diehard "big iron" fans have started coming around to the idea that the only ones who really care about "big iron" are the guys who make their living doing hernia surgery. The SMPS we use in most of our current amps weighs about four pounds - and it delivers about 3 kW - regulated.
So far, it has also proven to be more reliable than our previous designs.
We, and a substantial percentage of our customers, really do consider that to be a big step forward. So. why not to make two channel preamp - direct competitor to Mytek Brooklin+ DAC? But with sub output and in standard Emo outlook. It's a muss-production item...
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Post by monkumonku on May 18, 2019 10:21:52 GMT -5
Well that's true regarding the timing of your purchase and providing some flexibility over that timing. But on the other hand, what if the upgrades were dependent upon each other? That is, if in year 1 upgrade "A" was released and then in year 2, upgrade "B" was released but "B" needed "A" in order to function properly. So you would wind up having to get a cumulative upgrade which would probably mean incurring the expense for both, rather than being able to pick and choose which one you wanted. And as Geebo pointed out, the upgrades may not be around forever, either. I understand your point but on the other hand Emo has to plot a course among various alternatives that for them makes the most business sense. Sure possibly. But I don’t see how an HDMI board would be reliant on a previous HDMI board. That’s the only thing constantly changing is video. I see the point you’re making. But my impression was “buy a fully modular upgradeable processor so you don’t have to keep changing when video changes” which is exactly how they sold it. I hope they keep up that end of the bargain. Did Emotiva ever state how the upgrades would Have to be performed? Like A-B-C? I love Emotiva products as much as the other guy. The company makes some silly moves I don’t understand, but I digress. Oh yeah, I’m loving my tube amps btw. 🤪 Well I have to say that Emo has done some things that to me are questionable but that's only from my perspective operating with limited information. Big Dan and the company seem to have done very well and have expanded their base. I guess they must be doing well with the processors also as they keep making them, so I assume they must be profitable but it sure must be a headache dealing with all the changing technology, bugs, etc. And I love my tube amps and preamps, too!
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on May 19, 2019 0:53:28 GMT -5
You're entirely correct.... We have no aspirations whatsoever to make overpriced products whose performance and sound quality don't justify their price. We also simply cannot afford to design and build even the coolest products that only a few people are actually going to buy. We'll leave both of those to boutique companies who build their products one at a time in someone's garage... OK, finally got it, thanks. A mass production consumer company, with few high end aspirations. Not an "All Out Assault On the High End" as formerly touted. Thanks, Keith, this explanation helps us reset our expectations.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 19, 2019 1:05:59 GMT -5
Thank you.... As far as I know there are no immediate plans to discontinue the 4k upgrade option for people who still own an original XMC-1. But, as you say, we're not promising that the upgrade will be available forever either... I should note that, as soon as the XMC-2 is available, a lot of people will be trading in their XMC-1's. And we'll be Factory Renewing those XMC-1's and upgrading the ones that need it to 4k... And they'll be a really great deal for anyone who wants 4k but doesn't care about Atmos. The problem is I currently have no need whatsoever for the XMC2. But they have stamped it as a limited time deal. I don’t feel like I should have to fork over the cash for what I don’t need currently. What happens in another year or 2 when I upgrade to a 4K projector? Is my XMC still valid for upgrades? You don’t sell a unit on the promise of future upgrade and then deplete it from the lineup. Of course I could be jumping to conclusions, but can dan promise me my XMC will be available for updates in 2 years plus? But even upgrade modules would have a limited time of availability, no? Certainly they wouldn't be available forever.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 19, 2019 1:18:05 GMT -5
Good point.... Although it isn't always the case - upgrades are often contingent on previous upgrades - or are only available for units manufactured after certain dates. We've made sure that every XMC_1 ever sold can be upgraded to 4k. And, likewise, this upgrade will be available to anyone who purchased an XMC-1 new, or purchased one used and had the warranty transferred into their name. We think that's a pretty darned good track record. (And, two or three years from now, we'll probably be thinking about upgrading to an 8k projector, or whatever else comes along by then.) The problem is I currently have no need whatsoever for the XMC2. But they have stamped it as a limited time deal. I don’t feel like I should have to fork over the cash for what I don’t need currently. What happens in another year or 2 when I upgrade to a 4K projector? Is my XMC still valid for upgrades? You don’t sell a unit on the promise of future upgrade and then deplete it from the lineup. Of course I could be jumping to conclusions, but can dan promise me my XMC will be available for updates in 2 years plus? Well that's true regarding the timing of your purchase and providing some flexibility over that timing. But on the other hand, what if the upgrades were dependent upon each other? That is, if in year 1 upgrade "A" was released and then in year 2, upgrade "B" was released but "B" needed "A" in order to function properly. So you would wind up having to get a cumulative upgrade which would probably mean incurring the expense for both, rather than being able to pick and choose which one you wanted. And as Geebo pointed out, the upgrades may not be around forever, either. I understand your point but on the other hand Emo has to plot a course among various alternatives that for them makes the most business sense.
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on May 19, 2019 1:19:27 GMT -5
Well, now, that's a distinct possibility. I'm sorry audiobill...
We can't please everyone.
Perhaps I should rephrase that: "We always do our best to design and manufacture products that will appeal to a significant number of current and future customers." We are a commercial company, and not a boutique audio shoppe, so we do have to stick with products we can sell a significant number of. Unfortunately, as it turned out, while there may be enough of a market for those Carver tube amps to keep Bob fed, it wasn't enough to justify a product line for us.
You may also be surprised to know that there are still a lot of standalone DACs that don't do streaming. (Although the number still around in our normal target price range is slowly dwindling.) I can't say much about big heavy power supplies... except that they are in fact big and heavy...
However, even many of our diehard "big iron" fans have started coming around to the idea that the only ones who really care about "big iron" are the guys who make their living doing hernia surgery. The SMPS we use in most of our current amps weighs about four pounds - and it delivers about 3 kW - regulated.
So far, it has also proven to be more reliable than our previous designs.
We, and a substantial percentage of our customers, really do consider that to be a big step forward. So. why not to make two channel preamp - direct competitor to Mytek Brooklin+ DAC? But with sub output and in standard Emo outlook. It's a muss-production item...
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,213
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Post by novisnick on May 19, 2019 1:29:40 GMT -5
Well, now, that's a distinct possibility. So. why not to make two channel preamp - direct competitor to Mytek Brooklin+ DAC? But with sub output and in standard Emo outlook. It's a muss-production item... OH, Wait! It does MQA !
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Post by audiobill on May 19, 2019 4:41:04 GMT -5
You're entirely correct.... We have no aspirations whatsoever to make overpriced products whose performance and sound quality don't justify their price. We also simply cannot afford to design and build even the coolest products that only a few people are actually going to buy. We'll leave both of those to boutique companies who build their products one at a time in someone's garage... OK, finally got it, thanks. A mass production consumer company, with few high end aspirations. Not an "All Out Assault On the High End" as formerly touted. Thanks, Keith, this explanation helps us reset our expectations. Now, as to the "garages", I don't get your point:Attachments:
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geebo
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Post by geebo on May 19, 2019 8:57:11 GMT -5
You're entirely correct.... We have no aspirations whatsoever to make overpriced products whose performance and sound quality don't justify their price. We also simply cannot afford to design and build even the coolest products that only a few people are actually going to buy. We'll leave both of those to boutique companies who build their products one at a time in someone's garage... View AttachmentView AttachmentView AttachmentView AttachmentDo you consider McIntosh, Conrad-Johnson and the other two which I can't make out to be "boutique" companies?
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Post by audiobill on May 19, 2019 9:24:08 GMT -5
No, but I take it our friend Keith might. If you want to “assault” the high end, here’s some of your competition.
The other two are Cary and PS audio.
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Post by Raven on May 19, 2019 9:42:07 GMT -5
Well, now, that's a distinct possibility. OH, Wait! It does MQA ! Will it also be Roon Ready network player? Great news!!!
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novisnick
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CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,213
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Post by novisnick on May 19, 2019 9:42:11 GMT -5
Will it also will also Roon Ready network player? Great news!!! Uep! How about that!
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geebo
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Post by geebo on May 19, 2019 12:43:06 GMT -5
No, but I take it our friend Keith might. If you want to “assault” the high end, here’s some of your competition. The other two are Cary and PS audio. Thanks for the clarification. I was asking because you posted the "Now, as to the "garages", I don't get your point" remark followed by the photos of those other companies' buildings as if to say these "boutique" companies don't work out of garages. I guess that wasn't your point.
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Post by bluemeanies on May 19, 2019 12:57:59 GMT -5
I don’t think Keith’s response is pathetic or an excuse, it sounds like to me the company is simply going in a different direction. Bad for most of us but maybe they have a larger group of new buyers with the direction they are going. Emotiva was all about excitement. We all refreshed this forum to see new updates from Big dan and Lonnie. Oh well I bought my XMC based on the modular platform, now it’s gone. That was the whole point. I don’t want to upgrade my processor, I don’t want a new one. I wanted to be able to update it as needed. Which direction is that? Seems like EMOTIVA is in LIMBO.
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geebo
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Post by geebo on May 19, 2019 13:04:17 GMT -5
No, look above my comment and you will see Keith referring to the established, US high end companies as boutique garage builders, compared, I guess, to Emo's vast corporate presence and market impact. What he said was: " We have no aspirations whatsoever to make overpriced products whose performance and sound quality don't justify their price. We also simply cannot afford to design and build even the coolest products that only a few people are actually going to buy. We'll leave both of those to boutique companies who build their products one at a time in someone's garage..."
Nowhere in the post did he say anything about "established, US high end companies" nor did he mention any companies by name. Do you think he meant McIntosh and Conrad Johnson among others of their ilk?
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Post by audiobill on May 19, 2019 13:14:02 GMT -5
Geebo, he said " We'll leave both of those to boutique companies who build their products one at a time in someone's garage..."
Just who was he referring to? I found his comment, as usual, incredibly patronizing and pedantic.
Out.
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Post by pallpoul on May 19, 2019 13:17:50 GMT -5
Geebo, he said " We'll leave both of those to boutique companies who build their products one at a time in someone's garage..." Just who was he referring to? I found his comment, as usual, incredibly patronizing and pedantic. Out. Someone's garage, produced "MAC & apple" once upon a time..
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