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Post by ttocs on May 16, 2019 10:19:52 GMT -5
I've been on a quest of sorts, trying to answer some questions in my mind regarding vacuum tube amps, especially most recently due to upgrading to Martin Logan speakers with powered woofers. While I've enjoyed and prefer tube guitar amps, I don't have any in-my-home experience with tube amps for stereo systems. I've auditioned a smattering of great tubes including Conrad Johnson last week, and Carver a bunch of times in the last year, as well as others, but those were at dealers or AXPONA and none were with electrostatic speakers. I mention CJ and Carver because they both are at the top of the list. But then, I came full circle last night when my searching brought me back to Tubes 4 HiFi, or VTA. I noticed this company a few years ago but didn't know I knew anyone who was a customer, until last night when I saw some comments on the VTA web site from people with familiar handles. The forum names I noticed are of those whose opinions and experience I respect, so now I might be hooked as well. Lots of folks speak about the better mid-range with tube amps, but I've used parametric eq to simulate the same thing as I've heard in auditions and come up with a very similar sound, but something was missing. So for me, it's probably not the mid stuff, but how the transients are handled. It's the "effortless", or "polite" nature of transients I notice and like. What I don't like are some other aspects I've heard that some call "rolled off treble" but I think that's simply eq. In other words, if the mids are more noticeable then the bass and treble will seem lessened. Sparkle is a word I wouldn't use in describing how tubes handle some high freq sounds. So while a chime might have impact on my system, through tubes it would be a more "polite" sound with maybe less impact and dynamics but sound better/different at the same time - smoother. I also don't appreciate waiting more than a few minutes for warmup. I know someone who waits two hours for his four solid state amps to "warm up" before a listening session. In my opinion, the sound won't change (much) after the transformers heat up. So far, that's my take on tubes at the moment. More to the point is that I am imminently considering getting a VTA M-125 mono amps kit (yes I know how to solder (pronounced sodder in my family)). This is totally due to the fact that some of you here seem like avid owners of these amps as well as other items from Tubes 4 HiFi. Assembling a kit would be fun all by itself. My only real concern is how these amps will behave with low impedance stats like mine?? Then there's the choice of tubes, driver tubes and output tubes. Driver tubes will just confuse me, but output tubes I know a little about so my first choice would be the KT120. I'd appreciate any helpful advice. edit: Spoiler Alert: I built these Bob Latino M-125 amps, they're great!
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Post by pop on May 16, 2019 11:20:28 GMT -5
I have extensive listening experience on a set of Montis on a MC275. Sound is beautiful. Hope that helps.
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on May 16, 2019 11:48:40 GMT -5
The basic situation is this..... A good solid state amp is going to deliver the signal the most accurately. Tube amps have a different, and distinctive sound, because they color the sound (they alter it - like what sunglasses, or the proverbial "rose colored glasses", do to what you see). Of course, many people find this sort of coloration "pleasant", which is the whole point.
In a guitar amp, this is often desirable, and the coloration added by the amp is simply "part of the sound of the instrument". In the case of a guitar amp, you expect to overdrive the amp until it distorts, at least sometimes, so the way in which it distorts is important. In the case of high-fidelity equipment, you do NOT want a lot of distortion, and hopefully won't overdrive your amp... Therefore, what you're talking about are the more subtle colorations and distortions that tube equipment adds at normal listening levels. Your equalizer can adjust the frequency response... However, most tube amps also add a significant amount of second-harmonic distortion, which is often audible, and which is what gives them that "midrange sparkle". To replicate that effect, you want something that adds controlled amounts of second harmonics (like the "exciter" option in Izotope Ozone, or the Aphex Aural Exciter).
Adding second harmonic distortion is known to make vocals seem both more prominent and more intelligible... and the term "punchier" is often used. (If you want an example of that used somewhat to excess... listen to the song Blue Bayou - sung by Linda Ronstadt...)
What you describe as "polite sound" seems more like a bit of dynamic limiting... or possibly a roll off or sort of softening or blurring of high frequencies. (Many tube amps seem to soften or blur high frequencies in a distinctive fashion that is sort of difficult to quantify.)
In addition to that, when used with dynamic speakers, tube power amps tend to deliver softer less concise bass because of their extremely low damping factor.
Depending on the speaker, it may sound like there is slightly more bass, and the bass may sound tubby, or seem to continue on for a split second after the signal stops.)
(This is an interaction between the damping factor on the amp and the motor mechanism of the speaker - so only happens with tube AMPLIFIERS - and would NOT act the same with electrostatics.)
Almost all alectrostatic loudspeakers use a transformer to boost the signal voltage to drive the electrostatic panels. Besided being a complex impedance to drive, this can interact in odd and unexpected ways with the output transformer required in a tube power amp. So, while some tube amps may be able to drive some electrostatics well, there is the potential for then not to do so - and the potential for extremely bad things to happen. (If the amplifier is unstable with that load, it could oscillate, potentially destroying the amplifier and/or your speakers.)
I would NOT even try to connect electrostatic speakers to a tube amp unless the manufacturer of the amp SPECIFICALLY says that it's OK to do so.
I've been on a quest of sorts, trying to answer some questions in my mind regarding vacuum tube amps, especially most recently due to upgrading to Martin Logan speakers with powered woofers. While I've enjoyed and prefer tube guitar amps, I don't have any in-my-home experience with tube amps for stereo systems. I've auditioned a smattering of great tubes including Conrad Johnson last week, and Carver a bunch of times in the last year, as well as others, but those were at dealers or AXPONA and none were with electrostatic speakers. I mention CJ and Carver because they both are at the top of the list. But then, I came full circle last night when my searching brought me back to Tubes 4 HiFi, or VTA. I noticed this company a few years ago but didn't know I knew anyone who was a customer, until last night when I saw some comments on the VTA web site from people with familiar handles. The forum names I noticed are of those whose opinions and experience I respect, so now I might be hooked as well. Lots of folks speak about the better mid-range with tube amps, but I've used parametric eq to simulate the same thing as I've heard in auditions and come up with a very similar sound, but something was missing. So for me, it's probably not the mid stuff, but how the transients are handled. It's the "effortless", or "polite" nature of transients I notice and like. What I don't like are some other aspects I've heard that some call "rolled off treble" but I think that's simply eq. In other words, if the mids are more noticeable then the bass and treble will seem lessened. Sparkle is a word I wouldn't use in describing how tubes handle some high freq sounds. So while a chime might have impact on my system, through tubes it would be a more "polite" sound with maybe less impact and dynamics but sound better/different at the same time - smoother. I also don't appreciate waiting more than a few minutes for warmup. I know someone who waits two hours for his four solid state amps to "warm up" before a listening session. In my opinion, the sound won't change (much) after the transformers heat up. So far, that's my take on tubes at the moment. More to the point is that I am imminently considering getting a VTA M-125 mono amps kit (yes I know how to solder (pronounced sodder in my family)). This is totally due to the fact that some of you here seem like avid owners of these amps as well as other items from Tubes 4 HiFi. Assembling a kit would be fun all by itself. My only real concern is how these amps will behave with low impedance stats like mine?? Then there's the choice of tubes, driver tubes and output tubes. Driver tubes will just confuse me, but output tubes I know a little about so my first choice would be the KT120. I'd appreciate any helpful advice.
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Post by ttocs on May 16, 2019 11:53:52 GMT -5
I have extensive listening experience on a set of Montis on a MC275. Sound is beautiful. Hope that helps. Yes, it does. Thanks. It's actually a really good comparo. Do you think I'm off track with any of my comments? How does 75 watts perform? Plenty of steam?? Dynamics???
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Post by pop on May 16, 2019 12:08:47 GMT -5
I’ve never heard that system run out of steam. As far as dynamics I don’t think I can personally answer that for you. To me it sounds extremely natural. Nothing is trying hard. And I don’t find anything to be lacking at all.
But I also don’t pick things apart critically. I either like it or I don’t
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Post by ttocs on May 16, 2019 12:18:04 GMT -5
I would NOT even try to connect electrostatic speakers to a tube amp unless the manufacturer of the amp SPECIFICALLY says that it's OK to do so. Interesting. I was unaware it could be THAT much of a problem. But, that exact question, Is there any problem with the amp and electrostatic speakers?, is one I posed to VTA last night. McIntosh tube and Martin Logan speakers are routinely displayed together at dealers which sell both, and it's usually the MC275.
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Post by pedrocols on May 16, 2019 12:55:55 GMT -5
There are also reports of solid state amps having difficulties powering electrostatic speakers.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,901
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Post by KeithL on May 16, 2019 13:53:30 GMT -5
There are definitely some solid state amps that have difficulty with some electrostatic speakers. And, likewise, there are probably some tube amps that will work fine with them.
HOWEVER...... The odds are a lot better that a solid state amplifier will work... And the odds are better that, even if it doesn't work well, a solid state amp will simply distort, fail to play at all loudly, or shut down...
There are also reports of solid state amps having difficulties powering electrostatic speakers.
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Post by amped on May 16, 2019 14:08:26 GMT -5
The basic situation is this..... A good solid state amp is going to deliver the signal the most accurately. Tube amps have a different, and distinctive sound, because they color the sound (they alter it - like what sunglasses, or the proverbial "rose colored glasses", do to what you see). Of course, many people find this sort of coloration "pleasant", which is the whole point.
In a guitar amp, this is often desirable, and the coloration added by the amp is simply "part of the sound of the instrument". In the case of a guitar amp, you expect to overdrive the amp until it distorts, at least sometimes, so the way in which it distorts is important. In the case of high-fidelity equipment, you do NOT want a lot of distortion, and hopefully won't overdrive your amp... Therefore, what you're talking about are the more subtle colorations and distortions that tube equipment adds at normal listening levels. Your equalizer can adjust the frequency response... However, most tube amps also add a significant amount of second-harmonic distortion, which is often audible, and which is what gives them that "midrange sparkle". To replicate that effect, you want something that adds controlled amounts of second harmonics (like the "exciter" option in Izotope Ozone, or the Aphex Aural Exciter).
Adding second harmonic distortion is known to make vocals seem both more prominent and more intelligible... and the term "punchier" is often used. (If you want an example of that used somewhat to excess... listen to the song Blue Bayou - sung by Linda Ronstadt...)
What you describe as "polite sound" seems more like a bit of dynamic limiting... or possibly a roll off or sort of softening or blurring of high frequencies. (Many tube amps seem to soften or blur high frequencies in a distinctive fashion that is sort of difficult to quantify.)
In addition to that, when used with dynamic speakers, tube power amps tend to deliver softer less concise bass because of their extremely low damping factor.
Depending on the speaker, it may sound like there is slightly more bass, and the bass may sound tubby, or seem to continue on for a split second after the signal stops.)
(This is an interaction between the damping factor on the amp and the motor mechanism of the speaker - so only happens with tube AMPLIFIERS - and would NOT act the same with electrostatics.)
Almost all alectrostatic loudspeakers use a transformer to boost the signal voltage to drive the electrostatic panels. Besided being a complex impedance to drive, this can interact in odd and unexpected ways with the output transformer required in a tube power amp. So, while some tube amps may be able to drive some electrostatics well, there is the potential for then not to do so - and the potential for extremely bad things to happen. (If the amplifier is unstable with that load, it could oscillate, potentially destroying the amplifier and/or your speakers.)
I would NOT even try to connect electrostatic speakers to a tube amp unless the manufacturer of the amp SPECIFICALLY says that it's OK to do so.
I've been on a quest of sorts, trying to answer some questions in my mind regarding vacuum tube amps, especially most recently due to upgrading to Martin Logan speakers with powered woofers. While I've enjoyed and prefer tube guitar amps, I don't have any in-my-home experience with tube amps for stereo systems. I've auditioned a smattering of great tubes including Conrad Johnson last week, and Carver a bunch of times in the last year, as well as others, but those were at dealers or AXPONA and none were with electrostatic speakers. I mention CJ and Carver because they both are at the top of the list. But then, I came full circle last night when my searching brought me back to Tubes 4 HiFi, or VTA. I noticed this company a few years ago but didn't know I knew anyone who was a customer, until last night when I saw some comments on the VTA web site from people with familiar handles. The forum names I noticed are of those whose opinions and experience I respect, so now I might be hooked as well. Lots of folks speak about the better mid-range with tube amps, but I've used parametric eq to simulate the same thing as I've heard in auditions and come up with a very similar sound, but something was missing. So for me, it's probably not the mid stuff, but how the transients are handled. It's the "effortless", or "polite" nature of transients I notice and like. What I don't like are some other aspects I've heard that some call "rolled off treble" but I think that's simply eq. In other words, if the mids are more noticeable then the bass and treble will seem lessened. Sparkle is a word I wouldn't use in describing how tubes handle some high freq sounds. So while a chime might have impact on my system, through tubes it would be a more "polite" sound with maybe less impact and dynamics but sound better/different at the same time - smoother. I also don't appreciate waiting more than a few minutes for warmup. I know someone who waits two hours for his four solid state amps to "warm up" before a listening session. In my opinion, the sound won't change (much) after the transformers heat up. So far, that's my take on tubes at the moment. More to the point is that I am imminently considering getting a VTA M-125 mono amps kit (yes I know how to solder (pronounced sodder in my family)). This is totally due to the fact that some of you here seem like avid owners of these amps as well as other items from Tubes 4 HiFi. Assembling a kit would be fun all by itself. My only real concern is how these amps will behave with low impedance stats like mine?? Then there's the choice of tubes, driver tubes and output tubes. Driver tubes will just confuse me, but output tubes I know a little about so my first choice would be the KT120. I'd appreciate any helpful advice.
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Post by amped on May 16, 2019 14:44:28 GMT -5
Well I screwed up the quote here but I will say I was quoting KL's response here...So AGAIN I am in almost in complete agreement here with KLs Tube assessment...I will add that I have found that if your going tube (or trying tubes) the most logical way to do is try a tube preamp and use a SS amp...It was the single best move I have made in my front end. As KL stated the "warmth" and "Midrange bloom" that can be attributed to tubes also can have a downside with lackluster dynamics and overall low volume and to get those high power SETs you will spend a boat load of cash. So for me the VERY happy median was the aforementioned tube/ss setup I have all the warmth and delineation that tubes provide with the slam of 1kw on tap. Now this marriage will definitely require pre-marriage counselling as not all parings will be good so experiment but when its found you will really enjoy the ride! Don't get me wrong its not perfect but it's damn close.
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Post by ttocs on May 16, 2019 16:43:44 GMT -5
As Navin Johnson famously stated in the movie "The Jerk" after seeing his name published in the phone book: "Things are going to start happening to me now".
Imminently has now changed to "did". I had a very nice conversation with Bob Latino and placed the order for a pair of M-125 amps with KT88 tubes instead of the KT120's. Also ordered both tube and solid state rectifier just for fun so I can check out both.
Bob said, based on feedback from other Martin Logan owners, he's confident there shouldn't be a problem with my speaker load. We'll see. To me, it's worth trying.
I'm enjoying reading all the info everyone is coming up with. I'd really like to know when the HC-1 Mono amps will be available. I've requested info by email and have gotten some questions answered, but not about a release date. Then, I could compare the HC-1 monos to the M-125 monos, solid state vs tube.
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Post by audiobill on May 16, 2019 19:18:49 GMT -5
You've made an excellent choice, and will thoroughly enjoy your new amps for many years to come.
They'll deliver power, sonics, class and you won't see your investment go down the "tubes" . Not many of these ever show up on the preowned market, yet many have been sold. Keepers, indeed.
Congrats!
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,213
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Post by novisnick on May 16, 2019 20:07:39 GMT -5
KT 120’s running in my Bob Latino M125’s! They’ve never run out of steam on me, or bottom end for that matter. I just can’t recommend them enough! Im a guy that loves value but not at the cost of SQ! These like the Emotiva XPR-1’s are exceptional values! That said, tubes for two channel all day long. But don’t sell the XPR-1’s! 😁🎶🎶🎶🎶
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klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,689
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Post by klinemj on May 16, 2019 21:35:49 GMT -5
I would NOT even try to connect electrostatic speakers to a tube amp unless the manufacturer of the amp SPECIFICALLY says that it's OK to do so. Well...alrighty then. Interesting perspective. I'm seriously trying to withhold a chuckle. Mark
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klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,689
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Post by klinemj on May 16, 2019 21:36:44 GMT -5
As Navin Johnson famously stated in the movie "The Jerk" after seeing his name published in the phone book: "Things are going to start happening to me now". Imminently has now changed to "did". I had a very nice conversation with Bob Latino and placed the order for a pair of M-125 amps with KT88 tubes instead of the KT120's. Also ordered both tube and solid state rectifier just for fun so I can check out both. Bob said, based on feedback from other Martin Logan owners, he's confident there shouldn't be a problem with my speaker load. We'll see. To me, it's worth trying. I'm enjoying reading all the info everyone is coming up with. I'd really like to know when the HC-1 Mono amps will be available. I've requested info by email and have gotten some questions answered, but not about a release date. Then, I could compare the HC-1 monos to the M-125 monos, solid state vs tube. Sounds like a good combo to me. Enjoy! Mark
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Post by bluemeanies on May 17, 2019 4:00:24 GMT -5
I am using the m125's with Genelex Gold Lion KT88's...4 in each mono-block with my 803d2's. What can I say...give me more distortion and more color like rose color glasses😂 tubes4hifi are the S_ _ T! Great choice, a sturdy well rounded amplifier that does not break the bank. SUPERIOR QUALITY!
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Post by LuisV on May 17, 2019 6:35:09 GMT -5
I would NOT even try to connect electrostatic speakers to a tube amp unless the manufacturer of the amp SPECIFICALLY says that it's OK to do so. Well...alrighty then. Interesting perspective. I'm seriously trying to withhold a chuckle. Mark I think we all get it... Keith doesn't like tubes.
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Post by dsonyay on May 17, 2019 9:25:13 GMT -5
Maybe try out an inexpensive low powered tube amp? Miniwatt gets great reviews www.ebay.com/itm/Miniwatt-n3-Silver-/264303702355. Under 300. Steve Guttenberg had this paired with heresy III speakers and thought the sound was amazing.. couldn't play loud,but at a high enough volume to enjoy. Maybe something like that would allow you to explore tubes, and if you enjoy, spend big money later. If not a MiniWatt, there's other similar type builds
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Post by ttocs on May 17, 2019 11:28:22 GMT -5
^^^^^^^^ Like Homer says, I made my choice.
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Post by dsonyay on May 17, 2019 14:37:49 GMT -5
Oh cool . Yeah those amps you like are really too expensive. I kinda like the single amp .. the 120? I have a close friend who could easily built it for me as well. He's been bugging me about getting a kit.
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