|
Post by donh50 on Jul 5, 2019 13:03:00 GMT -5
My grandmother used to say the folk longing to return to the good old days didn't have to live through them...
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jul 5, 2019 13:25:08 GMT -5
I keep reading posts here about all kinds of software and hardware problems with digital home theater "pre-pro" pieces, but very few about any issues with members' tube components..... But, to listen to the hype, one would expect the opposite. Any theories? Only a dyed in the wool tube fan would create a thread such as this. No one assembles a Home Theater 🎭 with the thought of drawing a dependability comparison between tubes and solid state components. Bill
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Jul 5, 2019 14:17:22 GMT -5
IN DEFENSE OF TUBES:
No, they may not be the most reliable devices in the world.
No, they are not economical to buy or to run.
No, they aren't suitable for complex circuits (such as AV preamps).
No, they don't run cool.
BUT...
At their best, they can sound amazing. So can transistor gear, but the percentage of tube gear currently on the market that sounds amazing is significantly higher (like double or maybe triple) the percentage of solid-state gear that does. Further, the old saying that a tube watt sounds like 4x the transistor watts is also true. Try running a Magnepan speaker with a 35 WPC solid-state amp - most burn up. But a Dynaco Stereo 70 will run a Maggie all day long (and sound GOOD doing it).
YOU don't have to like tube gear, nor is anyone trying to force you to - not even Audio Bill. But those who DO like tube gear understand the differences and appreciate them. I love my modified Heathkit 12 WPC tube amps - but I'm not selling my Emotiva PA-1s either!
Boomzilla
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 5, 2019 15:18:43 GMT -5
I think audiobill 's points about tubes are well taken, I just think the original premise (as it was posted) is faulty for two reasons. One has been mentioned, that there is no way to compare a tube preamp to a surround sound processor, and just because you don’t need an SSP doesn’t mean others don’t or shouldn’t want or have one. It actually seems you want to single out the RMC-1 as you mention long threads, so you judge a whole category of product by one (lengthy) discussion. But “Reliability” is the title of the thread, again implying that tube gear is more reliable than an SSP (again unsaid, the RMC is implicated). Though have we really read a lot about the RMC-1 being unreliable? Generally we use that word to mean when a piece of equipment ‘breaks’ and needs to be repaired. Do we say a computer is unreliable if we run a faulty piece of software on it? Is there something we could do to the hardware to make the bad software work? No, the "Reliable" computer faithfully executes the bad code. While some have had their RMC’s exchanged, presumably because of a fault, I think you could even put that in the category of poor early QC (and I’m sure plenty of tube gear has suffered from that). In my experience, tube gear requires more 'maintenance' in order to remain 'reliable' ... and with a bit of humor, some might say the RMC-1 'reliably' chirps on regular intervals (but I don't want to poke the RMC user just wanting to watch a movie) I say this as someone who has had a piece of tube equipment in some system since about 1961 (granted, the first was a clock radio, but a 'stereo' soon followed). So I think this thread was doomed to be convoluted from the start due to a bad choice of terms, but I'm sorry if any of my posts came across as piling on.
|
|
|
Post by strindl on Jul 5, 2019 15:19:04 GMT -5
But, then, I doubt anyone ever put 100,000 miles on a horse and buggy... while modern autos frequently make it far longer than that. I'm pretty sure a horse couldn't go 1000 miles in one day either.
The real problem was, you had to be careful not to step in the exhaust from a horse. That's not an issue with an auto.
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jul 5, 2019 15:40:10 GMT -5
I don't think that Emotiva has offered a reliable and trustworthy pre/pro since their existence. I'm not even keen on their preamps and DACs. Emotiva should stick with making amps their number one concern, and with proper effort, they could build a solid and loyal customer base. The Emotiva XMC1 has been the top flight nerve center of my AV system since 2014. Many here would challenge your claims, I would think. I use Sunfire for amplification so can’t say one way or another about them. Bill
|
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,938
|
Post by KeithL on Jul 5, 2019 16:20:57 GMT -5
I do need to point out something here - just to be fair - if you're going to make comparisons. (And, yes, I'm old enough to remember....)
MOST of the tube gear around today is what we might refer to as "audiophile gear" or, at the very least, "high end consumer gear". Therefore, it's not all that surprising that most of it sounds at least pretty good. Face it.... nobody would bother with a piece of tube gear if it didn't sound at least pretty good.
Whereas, if you really have a tin ear, and want the cheapest junk you can get, of course it's going to be solid state.
(You can't buy a $5 tube amp today.... but you'll find lots of gadgets with $5 solid state amplifiers in them.)
Yes, at least in the later years of the tube era, there was some very nice tube gear, and there still is... However, every $50 suitcase phonograph also had a $5 tube amplifier in it... And, yeah, most of them really were pretty awful... They were made from crappy parts, based on poor designs, and sounded like it...
Most of them didn't exude some mystical euphonic distortion.... most of them just plain sounded pretty bad.
And, luckily for us, most of them have been residing in the local land fill for some time, where there is no danger they'll pull down the average.
These days, all we get to hear of that vintage gear is the percentage that actually sounded good enough to be worth keeping alive, so it's no big surprise that it sounds pretty good. For a fair comparison you'll have to wait thirty or fifty years... I'll bet almost all of the 2020 vintage solid state gear that's still in use in the year 2060 will be pretty nice too... (And it will be interesting to see if there are any "vintage Class A/B designs" still around then.)
I should also point out something else.... "comparing watts" isn't really fair either. Wouldn't it make more sense to compare the performance to a solid state amp that sells for around the same price? (The new Stereo 70 model lists for $2995 - which, coincidentally, is just what a pair of XPA-DR1 monoblocks will cost you.)
But, yes, you can find a nicely refurbished vintage unit for a lot less.
You might be better off comparing a $1000 modern model from someone like Yaqin.... To a much more economical pair of PA-1's....
IN DEFENSE OF TUBES: No, they may not be the most reliable devices in the world. No, they are not economical to buy or to run. No, they aren't suitable for complex circuits (such as AV preamps). No, they don't run cool. BUT... At their best, they can sound amazing. So can transistor gear, but the percentage of tube gear currently on the market that sounds amazing is significantly higher (like double or maybe triple) the percentage of solid-state gear that does. Further, the old saying that a tube watt sounds like 4x the transistor watts is also true. Try running a Magnepan speaker with a 35 WPC solid-state amp - most burn up. But a Dynaco Stereo 70 will run a Maggie all day long (and sound GOOD doing it). YOU don't have to like tube gear, nor is anyone trying to force you to - not even Audio Bill. But those who DO like tube gear understand the differences and appreciate them. I love my modified Heathkit 12 WPC tube amps - but I'm not selling my Emotiva PA-1s either! Boomzilla
|
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,938
|
Post by KeithL on Jul 5, 2019 16:22:27 GMT -5
Absolutely... Actual numbers printed on metal just seem more real than numbers on a display...
And the new ones won't run backwards either. " src="//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/superangry.png"> But, then, I doubt anyone ever put 100,000 miles on a horse and buggy... while modern autos frequently make it far longer than that. I'm pretty sure a horse couldn't go 1000 miles in one day either.
(But, then, a horse can have baby horses, and I've never heard of a car doing that.) Different requirements... and different results... I seem to recall, in the old days, power output tubes died relatively often, but preamp tubes lasted almost forever...
No joy in rolling over from 99,999 to 100,000 in the digital realm! Analog was so much more fun!
|
|
|
Post by audiobill on Jul 5, 2019 16:31:12 GMT -5
Keith, fyi there is no longer a $2,995 ST70, Radial Engineering couldn't sell them for that, and discontinued their efforts. Think the VTA ST 70 for half that, or less and you're talking.
I may have expressed myself unclearly, but my bottom line is that I wouldn't think of permitting some glitchy, unstable piece of excessively digital "value engineering" to interfere with my enjoyment of music. For me, that means high end tube equipment, entirely in the analog domain (except by necessity for my Directstream dac, which is generally considered as an example of excellent, and expensive engineering by Ted Smith for PS Audio. No shortcuts there).
As a musician, technician and music lover I couldn't do otherwise.
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jul 5, 2019 17:33:49 GMT -5
Keith, fyi there is no longer a $2,995 ST70, Radial Engineering couldn't sell them for that, and discontinued their efforts. Think the VTA ST 70 for half that, or less and you're talking. I may have expressed myself unclearly, but my bottom line is that I wouldn't think of permitting some glitchy, unstable piece of excessively digital "value engineering" to interfere with my enjoyment of music. For me, that means high end tube equipment, entirely in the analog domain (except by necessity for my Directstream dac, which is generally considered as an example of excellent, and expensive engineering by Ted Smith for PS Audio. No shortcuts there). As a musician, technician and music lover I couldn't do otherwise. Pure subjective. I’m a former union playing musician and care not for the inaccuracies of tube amplification. At the end of the day it is primarily the loudspeaker and the dynamics of the room that dictates the killer sound (or lack of) Bill
|
|
|
Post by audiobill on Jul 5, 2019 17:42:17 GMT -5
A musician that avoids the subjective. Interesting.
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Jul 5, 2019 17:54:29 GMT -5
What is the point of all this arguing? I should start a poll and ask how many people have changed their minds on the subject as a result of what they've read here.
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jul 5, 2019 18:04:31 GMT -5
A musician that avoids the subjective. Interesting. An excellent job of twisting words and as ridiculous as this thread you started, the premise of which makes no sense whatsoever
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jul 5, 2019 18:05:19 GMT -5
What is the point of all this arguing? I should start a poll and ask how many people have changed their minds on the subject as a result of what they've read here. What he said
|
|
novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,223
|
Post by novisnick on Jul 5, 2019 18:07:21 GMT -5
What is the point of all this arguing? I should start a poll and ask how many people have changed their minds on the subject as a result of what they've read here.
|
|
|
Post by tropicallutefisk on Jul 5, 2019 18:28:13 GMT -5
I love hearing about people's experiences and preferences for gear and technologies. However, I find the tube versus solid state arguments as tiresome as the mustang versus Camaro or 45 ACP versus 9 mm arguments. Just tell us what you love and why without trying to convince someone you have the only path to audio bliss. This is not directed at any individual. Just my 2 cents after seeing a few of these "discussions"
|
|
|
Post by mauriceminor on Jul 5, 2019 18:44:44 GMT -5
No need for me, my system is high end and excellent. Or in other words, yours isn't.
|
|
|
Post by pedrocols on Jul 5, 2019 19:36:23 GMT -5
In response to the thread shift to mass market transistors vs tubes. My post was about the troublesome nature of “pre-pro” units, whatever that is. I can respond to that. I have used preamp processors for years..almost 20 years. I've never had any problem with any of them. I currently have an Integra DHC 9.9. It's 10 years old and is used just about every day. Never a problem, everything has always worked. I had an Outlaw 990 pre amp processor for years as well. Never had any issues with it. I also still use a Harman Kardon Signature 2.0 preamp/processor. I've been using that for 11 or 12 years. Never any problems with it. As for tube preamps and amps vs solid state for reliability, I have a Threshold T2 solid state fully balanced preamp. I've owned it for 25 years and still use it every day. Never a problem nor any maintenance needed. I would put the sound quality, capabilities and versatility up against any tube preamp, and win. I also have multiple solid state power amps, including a Threshold SA/4e. I bought it about 26 years ago and it has never needed any service or maintenance. Again, I'd put it's sound quality up against any tube power amp. Tube equipment has specific sounds that some people enjoy. That's fine. But to say that tube equipment has far fewer problems is ridiculous. Since there are no tube based pre/proc, you can't compare reliability of solid state ones to something that doesn't exist. You do not seem to realize this is not a debate of tube vs solid state gear.
|
|
|
Post by strindl on Jul 5, 2019 20:29:21 GMT -5
[You do not seem to realize this is not a debate of tube vs solid state gear. The original poster's initial post was this. "audiobill Avatar yesterday at 4:33pm audiobill said: I keep reading posts here about all kinds of software and hardware problems with digital home theater "pre-pro" pieces, but very few about any issues with members' tube components..... But, to listen to the hype, one would expect the opposite. Any theories?" Now, I think he realized later that he was coming off as a kind of a snob and very arrogant, so he deleted all of his posts. The original poster was insisting that tube gear was more reliable than solid state, which we all know is simply incorrect. The sound differences are personal preference, and everyone can have theirs. The reliability factor has to be based on facts, not personal preference though. If someone posts something that is factually wrong, it should be challenged to correct the record.
|
|
|
Post by pedrocols on Jul 5, 2019 21:59:52 GMT -5
[You do not seem to realize this is not a debate of tube vs solid state gear. The original poster's initial post was this. "audiobill Avatar yesterday at 4:33pm audiobill said: I keep reading posts here about all kinds of software and hardware problems with digital home theater "pre-pro" pieces, but very few about any issues with members' tube components..... But, to listen to the hype, one would expect the opposite. Any theories?" Now, I think he realized later that he was coming off as a kind of a snob and very arrogant, so he deleted all of his posts. The original poster was insisting that tube gear was more reliable than solid state, which we all know is simply incorrect. The sound differences are personal preference, and everyone can have theirs. The reliability factor has to be based on facts, not personal preference though. If someone posts something that is factually wrong, it should be challenged to correct the record. The fact is that Emotiva's pre/pros they all had and continue to have issues. If I am going to spend 5k on a piece of gear I don't want to hear stuff about software issues or whatever. Just make the damn thing work.
|
|