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Post by garbulky on Jul 18, 2019 7:20:02 GMT -5
It’s been a whirlwind of new tech for me in the last few days. I’m normally somebody who upgrades once in a blue moon and when I do I make it count. And now I finally get to use an OLED LG 65 inch 3d HDR10 4k TV.   Getting it up and running with a DC-1 – problem solved! : For 4k sources I use a Sony UBP X-700 4k Ultra HD disc player and a Fire TV 4k. These are both capable of HDR 10 and Dolby Vision. For getting audio to my non-HDMI DC-1 DAC, I found a great purchase that provides optical output from 4k HDMI only sources. No noticeable lip sync, capable of multiple source switching. Pretty nuts for a $45 device and it works flawlessly with the fire tv 4k.  www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07RZ5MC1D/ Impressions: I am convinced that OLED is the state of the art right now. It would be interesting to see what MicroLED can bring to the table. Other tvs including Samsung’s impressive QLEDs can’t compete. And it comes down to the OLED’s ability to do perfect blacks. This means that at any point, any pixel on the screen can turn itself completely off. There is no backlight. The pixel is the backlight. When you first see it, something just clicks in your brain and you realize, wow, ALL THIS TIME you had been watching movies wrong! Absolute Black Levels Per pixel full black makes night time scenes far more detailed. You can actually see the artistry behind it. Instead of squinting and looking at the bright parts only. Night time scenes are highlighted by their use of light and color even more than daylight scenes due to the amazing contrast possible. The ability to go full black means that you can have complete darkness, next to brilliant vivid bright colors. The per pixel full black also means increased contrast ratio. This brings about a very dimensional looking picture that is “almost” 3 dimensional. OLED’s also do better playing in a dark room. What an experience! A regular LED TV fatigues your eyes because of the glare in a dark room. An OLED is much easier to watch in a dark room with significantly less glare. Perhaps it’s the contrast and lack of backlight. With a letterbox movie in a dark room, the picture simply stops. You don’t see the black bars of the letterbox or even the outline of the tv. You just see a floating picture. The first time I saw it was in the movie Gravity (letterbox format) in a dark room. Also the movie started completely black which resulted in no picture or tv to be seen because yep…. Absolute blacks! Another showcase scene was when Sandra Bullock is spinning in dark space against a dazzling backdrop of shining stars. Pinprick detail! She has to shine a torch and the torch cuts through the blackness like a knife and strobes in and out very fast as she spins head over heels.  Regular Blu-Rays and Image Processing: The biggest surprise was Blu Rays and how great they looked. That’s when I realized two things. Yes the 1080p image was being upscaled to 4k. But it wasn’t just a simple resolution boost that was responsible The image processors in tvs had gotten better, much better. Basically, they take SDR signals and figure out how to convert them in to HDR and also makes the colors pop more. I ended up getting out all my favorite Blu Rays and rediscovering the stunning picture thanks to this difference. Movies: Regular Blu Rays:2001 a space odyssey, Gravity, and Moana were masterpieces of detail. So were movies like Gravity. Moana was a complete knockout with amazing color and texture presenting itself as being almost 3d. Watchmen was also notable for its dark scenes which stood out nicely on the OLED screen. Here mastering makes all the difference and it shows. 4k Streaming: I felt the picture quality on 4k streaming wasn’t quite as good as regular Blu RaysPerhaps they are sending me a lower bit rate 4k signal or maybe I’m not even receiving 4k due to slow internet. However I was able to confirm that I was receiving HDR. Stranger Things looked noticeably better than the standard HD streaming version which I watched recently. The colors popped better and there was less blur during fast scenes. 4k Ultra HD:Planet Earth II. This was filmed with a variety of cameras, a lot of them which were actually 4k or higher masters. The result is breathtaking. Colors pop off the screen even in the glare of the sun, night time scenes were equally fascinating. The main difference I see with 4k is a denseness of color and finely differentiated color information. The color and contrast simply feel more solid, more dense and detailed. There appears to be a slightly increased detail, usually within variations in the same color. Is this due to more color information available compared to Blu Ray compression or due to an actual increase in resolution is harder to nail down. But I do know I’d never seen pictures quite like that nor ones so natural. Kingsmen 1 : This was one of the earlier 4k discs. Though it presents in HDR 10, it is noticeable that its master was a standard HD Blu Ray. There is some softness in the scenes that I have not seen in 4k masters. Flight of the Butterflies IMAX: This was also an HDR10 movie and was just gorgeous with copious amounts of sharp detail. THe only critic is at times they may have gone a little overboard on the daylight HDR scenes where the sunshines so bright certain bright highlights are just white. But a minor nitpick to what is certainly a stunning 4k demo. The pointless 4k controversy: When 4k was introduced, people were talking about resolution and how unnecessary 4k tvs and content was. The idea was that the human eye cannot differentiate between perfect HD signals and 4k signals all things being equal. But they didn’t take in to account two things and they make a lot of difference. The 4k TVs are simply more capable. The OLED units are all 4k and can do things that HD LED tvs simply could not do. They are able to reproduce more of the cinema color spec and look utterly fantastic doing it. The other is that everything is compressed from streaming to blu rays to ultra hd blu rays. So with this compression we have bit rat, color, and dynamic range differences that matter more than just the resolution. 4k streaming IS noticeably sharper, more colorful, with more detail than 1080p streaming. That right there IS the reason to get 4k displays. Streaming is so widely used nowadays that any increase in perceived quality is worth it imo. Blu-rays vs ultra HD: whether there is a an image difference or not due to pixels, there is still more detail in ultra hd blu rays. You have better colors and dynamic contrast. 4k Displays have better capabilities than the older bethren they replaced. They are brighter. OLED’s have perfect blacks (and are 4k). Are 4k native masters more noticeable. From the ONE HD to 4k upscale UHD blu ray I saw, I think that yes, 4k displays do offer a certain level of resolution that isn’t present on HD Blu rays but could I reliably pick it out? Probably not. So I won’t go saying I bend the laws of physics. So whether 4k resolution is needed or not for a better picture, without great 4k tvs and HDR you WON’T get a better picture in real world practice. And I think that’s the end result, really. Imo the reason why it’s marketed as 4k is because people can understand words like “resolution”. But most people don’t know about compression, bit rate, color depth, and HDR. But whatever the wording, the picture is very enjoyable. What a great time! |
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Post by tchaik on Jul 18, 2019 8:18:09 GMT -5
which series ? B8 or C9, I am ready to get rid of my crappy Lg led tv.
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Post by geebo on Jul 18, 2019 8:24:08 GMT -5
It’s been a whirlwind of new tech for me in the last few days. I’m normally somebody who upgrades once in a blue moon and when I do I make it count. And now I finally get to use an OLED LG 65 inch 3d HDR10 4k TV. 3D? What model did you get? |
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Post by davidl81 on Jul 18, 2019 8:24:34 GMT -5
It’s been a whirlwind of new tech for me in the last few days. I’m normally somebody who upgrades once in a blue moon and when I do I make it count. And now I finally get to use an OLED LG 65 inch 3d HDR10 4k TV. Getting it up and running with a DC-1 – problem solved! : For 4k sources I use a Sony UBP X-700 4k Ultra HD disc player and a Fire TV 4k. These are both capable of HDR 10 and Dolby Vision. For getting audio to my non-HDMI DC-1 DAC, I found a great purchase that provides optical output from 4k HDMI only sources. No noticeable lip sync, capable of multiple source switching. Pretty nuts for a $45 device and it works flawlessly with the fire tv 4k. www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07RZ5MC1D/ Impressions: I am convinced that OLED is the state of the art right now. It would be interesting to see what MicroLED can bring to the table. Other tvs including Samsung’s impressive QLEDs can’t compete. And it comes down to the OLED’s ability to do perfect blacks. This means that at any point, any pixel on the screen can turn itself completely off. There is no backlight. The pixel is the backlight. When you first see it, something just clicks in your brain and you realize, wow, ALL THIS TIME you had been watching movies wrong! Absolute Black Levels Per pixel full black makes night time scenes far more detailed. You can actually see the artistry behind it. Instead of squinting and looking at the bright parts only. Night time scenes are highlighted by their use of light and color even more than daylight scenes due to the amazing contrast possible. The ability to go full black means that you can have complete darkness, next to brilliant vivid bright colors. The per pixel full black also means increased contrast ratio. This brings about a very dimensional looking picture that is “almost” 3 dimensional. OLED’s also do better playing in a dark room. What an experience! A regular LED TV fatigues your eyes because of the glare in a dark room. An OLED is much easier to watch in a dark room with significantly less glare. Perhaps it’s the contrast and lack of backlight. With a letterbox movie in a dark room, the picture simply stops. You don’t see the black bars of the letterbox or even the outline of the tv. You just see a floating picture. The first time I saw it was in the movie Gravity (letterbox format) in a dark room. Also the movie started completely black which resulted in no picture or tv to be seen because yep…. Absolute blacks! Another showcase scene was when Sandra Bullock is spinning in dark space against a dazzling backdrop of shining stars. Pinprick detail! She has to shine a torch and the torch cuts through the blackness like a knife and strobes in and out very fast as she spins head over heels. Regular Blu-Rays and Image Processing: The biggest surprise was Blu Rays and how great they looked. That’s when I realized two things. Yes the 1080p image was being upscaled to 4k. But it wasn’t just a simple resolution boost that was responsible The image processors in tvs had gotten better, much better. Basically, they take SDR signals and figure out how to convert them in to HDR and also makes the colors pop more. This I ended up getting out all my favorite Blu Rays and rediscovering the stunning picture thanks to this difference. Movies: Regular Blu Rays:2001 a space odyssey, Gravity, and Moana were masterpieces of detail. So were movies like Gravity. Moana was a complete knockout with amazing color and texture presenting itself as being almost 3d. Watchmen was also notable for its dark scenes which stood out nicely on the OLED screen. Here mastering makes all the difference and it shows. 4k Streaming: I felt the picture quality on 4k streaming wasn’t quite as good as regular Blu RaysPerhaps they are sending me a lower bit rate 4k signal or maybe I’m not even receiving 4k due to slow internet. However I was able to confirm that I was receiving HDR. Stranger Things looked noticeably better than the standard HD streaming version which I watched recently. The colors popped better and there was less blur during fast scenes. 4k Ultra HD:Planet Earth II. This was filmed with a variety of cameras, a lot of them which were actually 4k or higher masters. The result is breathtaking. Colors pop off the screen even in the glare of the sun, night time scenes were equally fascinating. The main difference I see with 4k is a denseness of color and finely differentiated color information. The color and contrast simply feel more solid, more dense and detailed. There appears to be a slightly increased detail, usually within variations in the same color. Is this due to more color information available compared to Blu Ray compression or due to an actual increase in resolution is harder to nail down. But I do know I’d never seen pictures quite like that nor ones so natural. Kingsmen 1 : This was one of the earlier 4k discs. Though it presents in HDR 10, it is noticeable that its master was a standard HD Blu Ray. There is some softness in the scenes that I have not seen in 4k masters. Flight of the Butterflies IMAX: This was also an HDR10 movie and was just gorgeous with copious amounts of sharp detail. THe only critic is at times they may have gone a little overboard on the daylight HDR scenes where the sunshines so bright certain bright highlights are just white. But a minor nitpick to what is certainly a stunning 4k demo. The pointless 4k controversy: When 4k was introduced, people were talking about resolution and how unnecessary 4k tvs and content was. The idea was that the human eye cannot differentiate between perfect HD signals and 4k signals all things being equal. But they didn’t take in to account two things and they make a lot of difference. The 4k TVs are simply more capable. The OLED units are all 4k and can do things that HD LED tvs simply could not do. They are able to reproduce more of the cinema color spec and look utterly fantastic doing it. The other is that everything is compressed from streaming to blu rays to ultra hd blu rays. So with this compression we have bit rat, color, and dynamic range differences that matter more than just the resolution. 4k streaming IS noticeably sharper, more colorful, with more detail than 1080p streaming. That right there IS the reason to get 4k displays. Streaming is so widely used nowadays that any increase in perceived quality is worth it imo. Blu-rays vs ultra HD: whether there is a an image difference or not due to pixels, there is still more detail in ultra hd blu rays. You have better colors and dynamic contrast. 4k Displays have better capabilities than the older bethren they replaced. They are brighter. OLED’s have perfect blacks (and are 4k). Are 4k native masters more noticeable. From the ONE HD to 4k upscale UHD blu ray I saw, I think that yes, 4k displays do offer a certain level of resolution that isn’t present on HD Blu rays but could I reliably pick it out? Probably not. So I won’t go saying I bend the laws of physics. So whether 4k resolution is needed or not for a better picture, without great 4k tvs and HDR you WON’T get a better picture in real world practice. And I think that’s the end result, really. Imo the reason why it’s marketed as 4k is because people can understand words like “resolution”. But most people don’t know about compression, bit rate, color depth, and HDR. But whatever the wording, the picture is very enjoyable. What a great time! I am a huge fan of the OLED tv's and I'm very excited to see them coming down in price. In my living room we have a 75" screen that is LED (FALD). I wanted an OLED but at the time the 77" LG was still over 10k. Now that TV is around 5-6k. I am really hoping that one day OLEDs can get to the 85-100" size and eventually replace my 4k projector. Of course there will be issues with actually moving a screen that big, but I guess we will cross that bridge when we get to it. |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 18, 2019 8:24:49 GMT -5
which series ? B8 or C9, I am ready to get rid of my crappy Lg led tv. It’s an older model. 65ef9500. My friend just got the C7. You won’t regret it. |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 18, 2019 8:27:01 GMT -5
It’s been a whirlwind of new tech for me in the last few days. I’m normally somebody who upgrades once in a blue moon and when I do I make it count. And now I finally get to use an OLED LG 65 inch 3d HDR10 4k TV. 3D? What model did you get? 65ef9500 I’m having trouble getting the 3-D to look right. The top half or 1/3 appears to have some sort of double vision to it. I’m not using stock glasses. |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 18, 2019 8:32:14 GMT -5
It’s been a whirlwind of new tech for me in the last few days. I’m normally somebody who upgrades once in a blue moon and when I do I make it count. And now I finally get to use an OLED LG 65 inch 3d HDR10 4k TV. Getting it up and running with a DC-1 – problem solved! : For 4k sources I use a Sony UBP X-700 4k Ultra HD disc player and a Fire TV 4k. These are both capable of HDR 10 and Dolby Vision. For getting audio to my non-HDMI DC-1 DAC, I found a great purchase that provides optical output from 4k HDMI only sources. No noticeable lip sync, capable of multiple source switching. Pretty nuts for a $45 device and it works flawlessly with the fire tv 4k. www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07RZ5MC1D/ Impressions: I am convinced that OLED is the state of the art right now. It would be interesting to see what MicroLED can bring to the table. Other tvs including Samsung’s impressive QLEDs can’t compete. And it comes down to the OLED’s ability to do perfect blacks. This means that at any point, any pixel on the screen can turn itself completely off. There is no backlight. The pixel is the backlight. When you first see it, something just clicks in your brain and you realize, wow, ALL THIS TIME you had been watching movies wrong! Absolute Black Levels Per pixel full black makes night time scenes far more detailed. You can actually see the artistry behind it. Instead of squinting and looking at the bright parts only. Night time scenes are highlighted by their use of light and color even more than daylight scenes due to the amazing contrast possible. The ability to go full black means that you can have complete darkness, next to brilliant vivid bright colors. The per pixel full black also means increased contrast ratio. This brings about a very dimensional looking picture that is “almost” 3 dimensional. OLED’s also do better playing in a dark room. What an experience! A regular LED TV fatigues your eyes because of the glare in a dark room. An OLED is much easier to watch in a dark room with significantly less glare. Perhaps it’s the contrast and lack of backlight. With a letterbox movie in a dark room, the picture simply stops. You don’t see the black bars of the letterbox or even the outline of the tv. You just see a floating picture. The first time I saw it was in the movie Gravity (letterbox format) in a dark room. Also the movie started completely black which resulted in no picture or tv to be seen because yep…. Absolute blacks! Another showcase scene was when Sandra Bullock is spinning in dark space against a dazzling backdrop of shining stars. Pinprick detail! She has to shine a torch and the torch cuts through the blackness like a knife and strobes in and out very fast as she spins head over heels. Regular Blu-Rays and Image Processing: The biggest surprise was Blu Rays and how great they looked. That’s when I realized two things. Yes the 1080p image was being upscaled to 4k. But it wasn’t just a simple resolution boost that was responsible The image processors in tvs had gotten better, much better. Basically, they take SDR signals and figure out how to convert them in to HDR and also makes the colors pop more. This I ended up getting out all my favorite Blu Rays and rediscovering the stunning picture thanks to this difference. Movies: Regular Blu Rays:2001 a space odyssey, Gravity, and Moana were masterpieces of detail. So were movies like Gravity. Moana was a complete knockout with amazing color and texture presenting itself as being almost 3d. Watchmen was also notable for its dark scenes which stood out nicely on the OLED screen. Here mastering makes all the difference and it shows. 4k Streaming: I felt the picture quality on 4k streaming wasn’t quite as good as regular Blu RaysPerhaps they are sending me a lower bit rate 4k signal or maybe I’m not even receiving 4k due to slow internet. However I was able to confirm that I was receiving HDR. Stranger Things looked noticeably better than the standard HD streaming version which I watched recently. The colors popped better and there was less blur during fast scenes. 4k Ultra HD:Planet Earth II. This was filmed with a variety of cameras, a lot of them which were actually 4k or higher masters. The result is breathtaking. Colors pop off the screen even in the glare of the sun, night time scenes were equally fascinating. The main difference I see with 4k is a denseness of color and finely differentiated color information. The color and contrast simply feel more solid, more dense and detailed. There appears to be a slightly increased detail, usually within variations in the same color. Is this due to more color information available compared to Blu Ray compression or due to an actual increase in resolution is harder to nail down. But I do know I’d never seen pictures quite like that nor ones so natural. Kingsmen 1 : This was one of the earlier 4k discs. Though it presents in HDR 10, it is noticeable that its master was a standard HD Blu Ray. There is some softness in the scenes that I have not seen in 4k masters. Flight of the Butterflies IMAX: This was also an HDR10 movie and was just gorgeous with copious amounts of sharp detail. THe only critic is at times they may have gone a little overboard on the daylight HDR scenes where the sunshines so bright certain bright highlights are just white. But a minor nitpick to what is certainly a stunning 4k demo. The pointless 4k controversy: When 4k was introduced, people were talking about resolution and how unnecessary 4k tvs and content was. The idea was that the human eye cannot differentiate between perfect HD signals and 4k signals all things being equal. But they didn’t take in to account two things and they make a lot of difference. The 4k TVs are simply more capable. The OLED units are all 4k and can do things that HD LED tvs simply could not do. They are able to reproduce more of the cinema color spec and look utterly fantastic doing it. The other is that everything is compressed from streaming to blu rays to ultra hd blu rays. So with this compression we have bit rat, color, and dynamic range differences that matter more than just the resolution. 4k streaming IS noticeably sharper, more colorful, with more detail than 1080p streaming. That right there IS the reason to get 4k displays. Streaming is so widely used nowadays that any increase in perceived quality is worth it imo. Blu-rays vs ultra HD: whether there is a an image difference or not due to pixels, there is still more detail in ultra hd blu rays. You have better colors and dynamic contrast. 4k Displays have better capabilities than the older bethren they replaced. They are brighter. OLED’s have perfect blacks (and are 4k). Are 4k native masters more noticeable. From the ONE HD to 4k upscale UHD blu ray I saw, I think that yes, 4k displays do offer a certain level of resolution that isn’t present on HD Blu rays but could I reliably pick it out? Probably not. So I won’t go saying I bend the laws of physics. So whether 4k resolution is needed or not for a better picture, without great 4k tvs and HDR you WON’T get a better picture in real world practice. And I think that’s the end result, really. Imo the reason why it’s marketed as 4k is because people can understand words like “resolution”. But most people don’t know about compression, bit rate, color depth, and HDR. But whatever the wording, the picture is very enjoyable. What a great time! I am a huge fan of the OLED tv's and I'm very excited to see them coming down in price. In my living room we have a 75" screen that is LED (FALD). I wanted an OLED but at the time the 77" LG was still over 10k. Now that TV is around 5-6k. I am really hoping that one day OLEDs can get to the 85-100" size and eventually replace my 4k projector. Of course there will be issues with actually moving a screen that big, but I guess we will cross that bridge when we get to it. Another friend upgraded his 65” OLED TV to an 86 inch regular lg led tv. I would’ve gone for the 77 inch Oled but it was twice the price. For prime day the 77 inch lg oled was 4000. If I had to guess micro LED screens will deliver the large size that you’re looking for but it might take some time for the prices to come down. |
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Post by geebo on Jul 18, 2019 8:36:50 GMT -5
3D? What model did you get? 65ef9500 I’m having trouble getting the 3-D to look right. The top half or 1/3 appears to have some sort of double vision to it. I’m not using stock glasses. Ahh, I thought you got a new model but thought 3D had been dropped. At any rate, the OLED picture is outstanding. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 18, 2019 9:10:49 GMT -5
In my bright room OLEDs don’t have enough nits for HDR. Interesting to find out how it works out for you.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by novisnick on Jul 18, 2019 9:18:48 GMT -5
garbulky does your LG need passive or active glasses?
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Post by Bonzo on Jul 18, 2019 9:40:35 GMT -5
Its exactly what I've said all along. The 4K resolution part is little to none of the improvement, its all the other upgrades like HDR and other improvements that make the real difference.
4K by itself does help LCD TVs because the "doors" are smaller. Since they are smaller, off access viewing is improved.
Anyway, enough on that. Make sure you break it in properly and then after at least 300 hours, get it calibrated. You won't regret it. Trust me.
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Post by garbulky on Jul 18, 2019 9:42:37 GMT -5
garbulky does your LG need passive or active glasses? Passive |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Jul 18, 2019 9:46:22 GMT -5
I just wanted to chime in here - because I have a feeling that many people still don't understand the distinction. (Referring to recent models as "LED TVs" is actually a misnomer.... they are really "LCD panels with LED back lights")
ALL "LCD" screens use a liquid crystal panel to create the actual image - with a back-light behind it to illuminate it. The individual pixels act like little tiny windows - which can be programmed to pass or not pass light. (For each pixel you have a white back light, a color filter that passes only a certain color, and an LC "shutter" that lets more or less light through.)
Unfortunately, not only are LC pixels somewhat slow, but it can also be difficult to light a large area with a smooth consistent white back light.
ALL "LCD" screens use a liquid crystal panel to create the actual image with a back-light behind it to illuminate it. And virtually all of the early LCD screens used some sort of fluorescent tubes to produce this illumination.
Some used regular fluorescent tubes while others used "cold-cathode tubes". Most larger screens had an array of tubes behind the screen, while smaller ones often used a few tubes around the edge and a translucent plastic diffuser panel.
The next step up, often referred to as "LED TVs" are really LED BACKLIT... which means that they use LEDs rather than fluorescent tubes for the back light. Unlike fluorescent tubes LEDs can be turned on and off very quickly. And, because the individual LEDs are small, and whole groups of them are used, it became possible to turn off or dim the back light separately in different sections of the display. (This allows you to get better contrast in small areas, and better units offered individual control over more and smaller areas, but that can introduce other issues.) However, we're still talking about an LED BACK LIGHT illuminating a standard LCD panel.
It's also worth mentioning that the LCD technology used in LCD panels has gone through several different iterations... The most recent ones have a MUCH better contrast ratio and viewing angle then the original ones.
OLEDs are very different - because the individual pixels actually emit light (rather than simply pass or block it). There is no back light - and no issues about illuminating the entire screen smoothly.
And, since each individual pixel can be turned fully off, they deliver really good black levels (an OLED that is off really is off). However, there are limitations in how bright each OLED pixel can be (and they tend to actually wear out over time).
With the NEW "micro-LED" panels, we're still talking about individual pixels that emit light... So no issues about back lighting and zone controls. However, rather than OLEDs, the new ones use more traditional "regular LEDs", which are capable of delivering much higher brightness levels, and should have a longer life expectancy. (It is apparently easier to make huge arrays of tiny OLEDs than tiny regular LEDs - which is why active OLED screens came along first.)
In my bright room OLEDs don’t have enough nits for HDR. Interesting to find out how it works out for you. Cheers Gary |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Jul 18, 2019 10:20:38 GMT -5
I want to take a minute to expand on a few of the things that Garbulky mentioned....
First off, yes, there are many improvements in current TV models, over those from even a few years ago. As a result, a good quality Blu-Ray disc will usually look better on a modern TV than on a "good quality TV" from a few years ago. While you can't "manufacture real detail", modern upscaling engines do an excellent job of faking it, and simulating detail. (So, while you can't create detail from nothing, an upscaled 4k picture will most certainly appear sharper than one that hasn't been upscaled.)
About Bandwidth and Compression
All else being equal - a 4k picture contains about four times as many pixels as an HD picture.
All else being equal - a 4k UHD disc delivers about twice the amount of actual data as an HD Blu-Ray disc. The apparent discrepancy there is because 4k UHD discs use h.265 compression - which is "about twice as efficient as the h.264 compression used on HD Blu-Ray discs".
(At any given quality level and bandwidth, you can fit a picture that "looks equally sharp", into about half as much bandwidth.)
However, in reality, it even goes beyond that. The new compression seems to "degrade more gracefully". (When you squeezed a picture too hard using h.264 it got rough and blocky; when you use too much compression with h.265 it gets a little soft, but still looks OK.)
In general, streaming video uses FAR less bandwidth than a disc, and delivers less detail. (A typical two-hour HD movie on Blu-Ray occupies about 40 gB; a typical 4k UHD movie about twice that; 4k UHD discs hold about 120 gB.)
However, the difference is often not as visually obvious as you might expect. (Remember that, if you have a 4k TV, you're going to be comparing two 4k pictures, one "real 4k" and one "upscaled 4k")
In reality, with streaming video, the practical limitation is usually bandwidth (how much can you use and still be sure the network can keep up without having dropouts). The tricky part is that, at any given bandwidth, you can deliver an HD picture with a certain amount of compression, or a 4k UHD picture with more compression applied to it. (But remember that, because they use different types of compression, the same amount of compression will probably cause less degradation in the 4k picture.)
So, under certain circumstances, the less heavily compressed HD picture may end up appearing sharper than the heavily compressed 4k picture, but under other conditions the 4k picture may look better. (Also note that there is no commonly quoted specification for the amount of compression that's used... so there's no easy way to "compare the quality of two versions of a movie by looking at the numbers".) Of course, in real life, it gets even more complicated... For example, the type of compression used for each type of disc is specified, but it isn't for streaming.
(So, for example, you can send an HD stream, but compress it using the higher quality h.265 compression normally used on 4k discs.)
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Post by wilburthegoose on Jul 18, 2019 10:26:10 GMT -5
Get that baby ISF Calibrated!
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Post by routlaw on Jul 18, 2019 10:29:53 GMT -5
All good points Keith which I have been aware of with the exceptions of how OLED's work.
My main issue with the LG OLED TV's I've seen is the colors are completely unrealistic, like way out of the ball park unrealistic. Yeah, I know all TV companies as well as the purveyors that present them in the stores have always ramped up the color just to gain attention and to compete with the TV setting next to them. But the OLED's have taken this to such an extreme level images look more like cartoons or worse. On many occasions I have looked in awe… sort of, and wondered just how much calibration one could take these sets down to realistic levels and still have them look special rather than a typical LCD TV, LED back lit or not. I have my doubts. Worse yet the suggestion of real pure black rarely if ever exist out in the real world with few exceptions. But even with my skepticism and criticisms admittedly they are fun to look at if only for a short while. I can't help but wonder how much eye fatigue one might have after a couple of hours watching a movie with these ramped up unrealistic colors and black levels.
And finally, why is it that projectors have not adopted this type of technology? Curious
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Post by drtrey3 on Jul 18, 2019 10:49:42 GMT -5
I agree about the tv's upsampling better. I have ripped a lot of video to Plex, and am SO pleased with how good the ripped dvd's look. That was a pleasant surprise!
Trey
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Jul 18, 2019 11:58:39 GMT -5
I suspect that most TV manufacturers feel that they need to set the defaults on their TVs so they look brighter and more colorful than last years models. It doesn't do much to convince someone to upgrade their TV if they look at the latest model in a store and it looks about the same as the one they have now. (The new HDR sets should be able to display "blacker blacks, brighter whites, and more vivid colors" - but should still only do so when those things are actually present in the content.) Luckily, most modern sets are pretty capable, and many look quite good if you just find the right option - and set then to display "natural" rather than "vivid" color.
You may not be old enough to remember when stereo was first introduced. Many of the early recordings featured what were often referred to as "ping-pong effects" - where sounds or voices would literally jump back and forth from left to right... Those recordings were great for showing off "what stereo could do".... but sounded pretty silly as actual music recordings.
It's sort of like the guy who just has to show off his new sports car by chirping the tires... every time he backs out of the driveway.
I find it interesting that, with all of the focus on surround sound and room calibration, you rarely hear about display calibration much lately. (Although part of that is that properly calibrating an HDR system is incredibly complicated - and you don't see any $20 "calibration discs" for HDR.)
I should also point out that modern smart TVs already have a computer inside - and most have at least one USB port on the back. Therefore, it would be simple to include a calibration App on the TV, and allow the user to calibrate it properly themselves using an optional hardware colorimeter.
This option has been available for computers for a long time - and it seems odd to me that TV manufacturers seemingly have no interest in offering it as a feature.
All I have to do to accurately calibrate my computer monitor is plug in the colorimeter, slap on the suction cup, run the program, hit a few buttons, and come back in five minutes when it's done.
A reasonably good quality colorimeter... like this one... only costs around $200.
A projector relies on a very small element generating a VERY bright picture, which is then spread to cover the whole screen by a lens or a deflection mechanism. Internally, the mechanism must be able to handle a very small but incredibly bright image. (The picture generated or modulated by that few-inch-square projector element must be literally millions of times brighter at that point than it is on the screen.)
This is absolutely NOT something that current OLED technology is good at.
All good points Keith which I have been aware of with the exceptions of how OLED's work. My main issue with the LG OLED TV's I've seen is the colors are completely unrealistic, like way out of the ball park unrealistic. Yeah, I know all TV companies as well as the purveyors that present them in the stores have always ramped up the color just to gain attention and to compete with the TV setting next to them. But the OLED's have taken this to such an extreme level images look more like cartoons or worse. On many occasions I have looked in awe… sort of, and wondered just how much calibration one could take these sets down to realistic levels and still have them look special rather than a typical LCD TV, LED back lit or not. I have my doubts. Worse yet the suggestion of real pure black rarely if ever exist out in the real world with few exceptions. But even with my skepticism and criticisms admittedly they are fun to look at if only for a short while. I can't help but wonder how much eye fatigue one might have after a couple of hours watching a movie with these ramped up unrealistic colors and black levels. And finally, why is it that projectors have not adopted this type of technology? Curious |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 18, 2019 20:57:24 GMT -5
All good points Keith which I have been aware of with the exceptions of how OLED's work. My main issue with the LG OLED TV's I've seen is the colors are completely unrealistic, like way out of the ball park unrealistic. Yeah, I know all TV companies as well as the purveyors that present them in the stores have always ramped up the color just to gain attention and to compete with the TV setting next to them. But the OLED's have taken this to such an extreme level images look more like cartoons or worse. On many occasions I have looked in awe… sort of, and wondered just how much calibration one could take these sets down to realistic levels and still have them look special rather than a typical LCD TV, LED back lit or not. I have my doubts. Worse yet the suggestion of real pure black rarely if ever exist out in the real world with few exceptions. But even with my skepticism and criticisms admittedly they are fun to look at if only for a short while. I can't help but wonder how much eye fatigue one might have after a couple of hours watching a movie with these ramped up unrealistic colors and black levels. And finally, why is it that projectors have not adopted this type of technology? Curious Routlaw I sort of know what you mean. When I got the OLED in, I was impressed but I felt the color was off and certain things simply didn't' look right. Like I knew the video didn't actually look like that. The good news is that it didn't atke much to fix it and I was surprised at the wide range of "looks" the OLED was capable of simply due to its high precision. Its color is better than anything I've seen on the market now on display shelves or theaters. My old LED TV's all had issues with PC monitors unable to produce perfectly clear pictures over HDMI for some reason. The OLED on the other hand does remarkably well. Mine is a 2015 model that was TOTL at the time. I'm sure the new LG OLEDs are even more stunning. I know the latest model has upped its nits output to 860 (mine does 500). I haven't even properly calibrated it though I have spent sometime moving around the settings to get an oustanding picture. I'm sure it could be even better. Interestingly what with Keith talked about the image processing - the new tvs are a lot tougher to eyeball the picture. The reason is that when I turned off the image processing the picture didn't look too good to my surprise. Usually that's the first thing I do - turn off the aids. But the best results I got was with some of the image processing left turned on. But it made things difficult. Usually what I do is after I get the contrast dialed in. Then I increase the brightness until the blacks and dark colors become too whitish. When that happens I know I've gone too far and back down till I get good black levels and the best contrast I can get. It works very well. But now with the OLED with image enhancements when you increase the brightness on the "backlight" that doesn't happen. The blacks get deeper, but at the same time more darker blacks get visible, the contrast increases and the picture pops a bit more. And it all depends on the scene. The image processors auto adjust the scene frame by frame to basically produce the best picture it can - which also means you can't predict it like you can an older generation tv. I have an HD disc for calibration which I plan to try. But right now I am enjoying the experience. |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 18, 2019 21:07:27 GMT -5
Its exactly what I've said all along. The 4K resolution part is little to none of the improvement, its all the other upgrades like HDR and other improvements that make the real difference. 4K by itself does help LCD TVs because the "doors" are smaller. Since they are smaller, off access viewing is improved. Anyway, enough on that. Make sure you break it in properly and then after at least 300 hours, get it calibrated. You won't regret it. Trust me. Thanks Bonzo. My TV is several years old (long story) so unfortunately it has been broken in a bit too well and exhibits some (minor) flaws from being abused. As for whether 4k resolution makes a difference. Having watched a few more 4k discs some which are native HD Blu ray upscales and others that are native 4k discs, I am not entirely decided but leaning more towards the importance of 4k masters and resolution as well. Going from 60 inch to 65 inch at my close range (about 7-8 feet) makes a noticeable difference. It's not "5 inches" as the tv's get way bigger with every inch the larger they are. Now... could it have to do with the movie mastering? If the movie is mastered in 2k then the artifacts of the 2k master or even the equipment used to make it may stay when transferring to 4k. On certain 2k masters I have noticed more camera noise and a sense of "softness" of the image. For instance in Transformers 2 UHD (which is a 2k upscale) the outdoor scenes with the parents show some compressed color palette with noticeable noise and grain. However the robot scenes (which are still 2k) show impressive picture quality. Overall the UHD disc is still a real thrill ride and I was able to follow the fast paced action much better. |
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