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Post by geeqner on Jul 18, 2019 16:18:00 GMT -5
Looking to upgrade my Pre-Amp to one with at least a few Balanced IN / OUT (to work with my XPA-2 and future stuff) This brought-up a related topic = BALANCED CABLES (Cables with 3-Pin XLR Connectors) Watching some DIY stuff on U-TOOB and an interesting article on Benchmark's website - USING QUAD VS. STANDARD SHIELDED 2-CONDUCTOR:Quad (4-Conductor Shielded cable with a special internal separator element) has the potential to significantly lower the noise floor WRT EMI in a Balanced Cable vs. "Standard" 2-Conductor Shielded. Granted, this advantage only becomes REALLY relevant for REALLY LOW level signals (like Microphone or maybe phono cartridge --> Pre-Amp Input) But, I figure that if I choose to "roll my own" Cables - the difference in cost is only a few bucks so "what the heck - WHY NOT". (This is one of those things that boils-down to "I probably WILL NOT HEAR any appreciable difference", but if the cost difference is PENNIES, then WHY NOT?) From what I can find - there are at least two good choices for commonly-available bulk cable in this category: - CANARE - Star Quad
- MOGAMI - Neglex Quad
Dolled-up with some nice Neutrik Cable Ends and Color-Coding Bands (I'm partial to the Black ones with Gold-plated pins) - it should be possible to make-up some REALLY NICE Interconnects for well under 30-50 bucks each (Or Music Vendors like Full Compass have pre-made ones "off the shelf" even in different colors at very affordable prices) ADDITIONAL "ENHANCEMENTS":
Are there any "Real-World" advantages to increasing the Outer Diameter of such cables with stuff like split-loom plastic tubing and braid over the top? The only real advantages that I can think of in doing this would be: -Aesthetics (Make 'em FAT makes them look like thousand-dollar Monster / AQ) -Could serve to provide SPACE between them, potentially reducing cross-talk by a bit
Making them myself would allow me to minimize the length = make them only as long as needed to reach between the components |
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Post by boomzilla on Jul 18, 2019 16:45:06 GMT -5
Hi geeqner - THOSE answers depend on whom you ask... The "resistance uber alles" crowd contends that zip cord is indistinguishable from anything else provided its resistance is minimized. This means heavier ga. as distance increases to keep the series resistance down. The "construction and insulation matter" crowd, with some few exceptions, contends that more strands contribute to better treble, that some architectures, or "weaves" of wires (including Litz wires) are more coherent, and that the quality of insulation matters in the sound quality. Now the above statements are grossly simplified, and there are reams of literature that go into mind-numbing detail about why that particular brand's wire sounds better (at least in theory) than anyone else's. In my experience, wires CAN sound differently. The two polar opposite examples that most folks should be able to hear a difference in with little effort are Kimber Kable and Nordost. For whatever reason, the Kimber speaker cables seem to soften edgy treble. The Nordost ones, for whatever reason, seem to emphasize the treble. How does this affect XLR cables? Who knows? The main reason to make your own cables isn't so much economics (you can eBay yourself a pair of inexpensive but perfectly durable Canare wires for a pittance), but rather for the pride of having done it yourself. That way, when your audio buds come about to marvel at your system, you can claim that the awesomeness is due to your own personal custom cables. (HA! Take THAT expensive wire sellers!). In an electronically noisy environment (a stage show, for example) having fat insulation can reduce noise. After all, the inverse square law says that electronic noise (in this case) weakens with the SQUARE of the distance. So even a few mm of extra insulation can make an interconnect less noisy. However, if both your source and destination components are fully balanced, the design of the electronics will kill most all noise on the interconnect anyway. So feel free to "roll your own" and be sure to post pictures! Boom |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 18, 2019 17:01:08 GMT -5
Looking to upgrade my Pre-Amp to one with at least a few Balanced IN / OUT (to work with my XPA-2 and future stuff) This brought-up a related topic = BALANCED CABLES (Cables with 3-Pin XLR Connectors) Watching some DIY stuff on U-TOOB and an interesting article on Benchmark's website - USING QUAD VS. STANDARD SHIELDED 2-CONDUCTOR:Quad (4-Conductor Shielded cable with a special internal separator element) has the potential to significantly lower the noise floor WRT EMI in a Balanced Cable vs. "Standard" 2-Conductor Shielded. Granted, this advantage only becomes REALLY relevant for REALLY LOW level signals (like Microphone or maybe phono cartridge --> Pre-Amp Input) But, I figure that if I choose to "roll my own" Cables - the difference in cost is only a few bucks so "what the heck - WHY NOT". (This is one of those things that boils-down to "I probably WILL NOT HEAR any appreciable difference", but if the cost difference is PENNIES, then WHY NOT?) From what I can find - there are at least two good choices for commonly-available bulk cable in this category: - CANARE - Star Quad
- MOGAMI - Neglex Quad
Dolled-up with some nice Neutrik Cable Ends and Color-Coding Bands (I'm partial to the Black ones with Gold-plated pins) - it should be possible to make-up some REALLY NICE Interconnects for well under 30-50 bucks each (Or Music Vendors like Full Compass have pre-made ones "off the shelf" even in different colors at very affordable prices) ADDITIONAL "ENHANCEMENTS":
Are there any "Real-World" advantages to increasing the Outer Diameter of such cables with stuff like split-loom plastic tubing and braid over the top? The only real advantages that I can think of in doing this would be: -Aesthetics (Make 'em FAT makes them look like thousand-dollar Monster / AQ) -Could serve to provide SPACE between them, potentially reducing cross-talk by a bit
Making them myself would allow me to minimize the length = make them only as long as needed to reach between the components I have not read the Star Quad discussion, but agree that if there are some theoretical advantages and you’re making them anyway why not try it. I do totally agree about the black XLR’s with gold pins, well made, easy to solder, good clean look, and love the colored rings. I use these from PartsExpress: Neutrik NC3MXX-B Male XLR Connector Black w/Gold Contacts Part # 092-308 & Neutrik NC3FXX-B Female XLR Connector Black w/Gold Contacts Part # 092-305. I made up a 7 cable set to run from my XMC-1 to XPA-7 in a very short length for my Credenza last summer (except L/R that serve a dual purpose). I however use Belden 8451 which wouldn’t pass your Tim the Toolman bulky cable test  I bought a spool of it some time back and also run it in-wall through smurf tube in my studio and between systems, the small diameter makes it good for running several cables in a single tube. Even with techflex I’m sure you’ll find the look anemic. I just modified the L/R below for bi-amping so now they create a double Y. I’m about to make up another pair with a right angle Neutrik Male for my new subwoofers. One thing about the Neutrik connectors in your situation, the boot opening is rather small, I have to really force two 1/8” Beldens through there (one is perfect). So it will be a tight fit with you fat cables.  |
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Post by geeqner on Jul 18, 2019 17:07:08 GMT -5
Yup - I hear ya'
But I am a FIRM believer in that Cables NEED to be SUITED TO THEIR PURPOSE:
In this case, I am referring to (relatively) Low-Level Analog Audio Signals that are somewhat "delicate" - and attempting to get them between:
Source OUT --> Pre-Amp IN and/or
PRe-Amp OUT --> Power Amp IN
I believe that this is a pretty clear case of minimizing problems will pay dividends WITHIN REASON and with signals at this level, little things CAN matter.
We're talking about a 2-Volt or 4-Volt signal with low current here and mainly trying to keep it unchanged / coherent from one component to another.
IF this was Speaker Cables - then my goal would be to minimize loss and carry the relatively high current to my speakers, which involves MUCH different electrical characteristics than Balanced and Un-Balanced Line-Level signal transmission "Horses for Courses"....
In most cases, I'm even willing to CONSIDER a small amount of what some might consider to be "Snake Oil" - so long as I'm not paying significant money for it. But as an Enginerd at heart - I ALWAYS come back to "Get the FUNDAMENTALS RIGHT FIRST!"
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Post by mountain on Jul 18, 2019 18:16:09 GMT -5
Yea, I prefer to roll my own. 😆🤐🍺
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Post by 405x5 on Jul 18, 2019 18:23:45 GMT -5
I got busted last time I rolled my own
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 18, 2019 20:09:22 GMT -5
I got busted last time I rolled my own I hope you were not rolling and driving!!🚗🚔😁 |
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Post by 26gary26 on Jul 18, 2019 20:49:28 GMT -5
Just asking isnt it legal now. LOL !!!!!
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 18, 2019 20:59:47 GMT -5
Just asking isnt it legal now. LOL !!!!! That’s determined on a state by state basis ... some still don’t allow unbalanced connections. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jul 18, 2019 21:04:40 GMT -5
Just asking isnt it legal now. LOL !!!!! That’s determined on a state by state basis ... some still don’t allow unbalanced connections. When I got busted for rolling my own, they said I was unbalanced. |
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 18, 2019 21:42:36 GMT -5
That’s determined on a state by state basis ... some still don’t allow unbalanced connections. When I got busted for rolling my own, they said I was unbalanced. That was probably because the noise floor was too high...🤣😂 |
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Post by RichGuy on Jul 19, 2019 1:31:00 GMT -5
Definitely my favorite interconnect cables are Mogami wire with Neutrik XLR connectors. I use several different Mogami wire types to suit different purposes, often Mogami multi channel snake cable is my first and favorite choice. I use an 8 channel snake from my XMC-1 processor to my XSP-1 and XPA-5, I use single XLR's from my XSP-1 to my XPA-2, I also use several 2 channel snake cables in my system as well as a few other single XLR's all are Mogami wire with Neutrik XLR connectors, as these are my favorite for both build and sound quality. Most of my cables are covered with TechFlex sleeving mainly for looks and added wire durability/protection. I keep my power power cables separated from my other cables in my system however there is one section of floor along a wall where I must run power cables and other cables as well. To help keep the cables separated along this floor area I use a split seam thick foam pipe insulation tube to contain all of my cables except the power cables along this run. This just helps keep the power cables separated from and not running beside or touching my other cables. This is something I feel helps to eliminate any unwanted noise being picked up by cables and helps keep the noise floor dead silent. I also use shielded wire for all of my power cables and all my cables are the proper length with no messy left over tangles to attract noise.
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Post by boomzilla on Jul 20, 2019 21:19:37 GMT -5
If you're going to roll your own, DON'T use lead-based solder. Get some silver solder instead. Or else use the "crimp it without solder - use it for a year - and then replace it" method. The resistance variations from lead electronics solder are HUGE. I posted a table on the Lounge once comparing DIY speaker cables - actual resistance vs. theoretical bare wire resistance. And I'm good at soldering - no cold joints, etc. The differences were still huge. I intended to try some silver solder, but then found BlueJeans speaker wires with their welded connectors that measure the same as bare wire.  |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 20, 2019 23:21:43 GMT -5
If you're going to roll your own, DON'T use lead-based solder. Get some silver solder instead. Or else use the "crimp it without solder - use it for a year - and then replace it" method. The resistance variations from lead electronics solder are HUGE. I posted a table on the Lounge once comparing DIY speaker cables - actual resistance vs. theoretical bare wire resistance. And I'm good at soldering - no cold joints, etc. The differences were still huge. I intended to try some silver solder, but then found BlueJeans speaker wires with their welded connectors that measure the same as bare wire. I thought that was a great comparison of speaker cables, very interesting results and it really focused on the key ... resistance! Very good work boomzillaI wish however I’d remembered your admonition against lead based solder, I made several cables this week including a pair of these sub cables. (I did also make some bi-amp speaker cables, but no solder)  |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Jul 20, 2019 23:31:01 GMT -5
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Post by Casey Leedom on Jul 20, 2019 23:38:02 GMT -5
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Post by boomzilla on Jul 21, 2019 6:06:23 GMT -5
Thanks, Casey Leedom - Both those links are credible and informative - I've bookmarked them both for future use. Thank you for posting them. Boom |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 21, 2019 11:13:08 GMT -5
That’s a bit general (or rather theoretical), I think most are aware of the value of copper, silver, and gold in electronics, but what specifically is a good silver solder? I used tin/lead this week because it’s what I had and I wanted to make cables for my new subs, but after reading boomzilla ’s note realized my impatience may have gotten the better of me. Even so I continuity check all my connections (mostly to ensure I haven’t cross wired anything) and find for these short lengths I’m at the resolution of my meter, which is about a tenth of an ohm — or the same as the wire alone (I can also report the subs sound great). Then I went to order more silver solder and noticed the brand I’d used before has lead in it <this one>I then searched lead free silver solder and saw other choices, but it seemed like the time to ask “What (silver) solder is best for line level connections (XLR / RCA)? — I don’t use solder on speaker cables. To add some detail I’m usually soldering to gold pins or cups. |
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Post by boomzilla on Jul 21, 2019 14:35:27 GMT -5
I believe that the use of lead solder in interconnects makes no difference. Why? Because when you're dealing with an input impedance of an amp or preamp of 10,000 ohms, an additional ohm or two caused by lead solder makes no difference. But when you're dealing with a four ohm speaker load, an additional ohm becomes really significant. For that reason, I favor welded or silver-soldered speaker wires. Once I discovered that BlueJeans welds measured exactly the same as bare wires, I found no reason to solder speaker wires at all any more. The problem with silver soldering is that you're very near brazing temperatures (if the solder is high in silver content). Those temperatures are very destructive to insulation. So the best way to silver solder a wire is to:
1. Use a heat sink between the soldering point and the insulation - Otherwise the insulation melts, stinks, and runs. It will also burn you if you let it...
2. Use a terminating insulator that prevents air from getting to the the bare wires between the soldered portion and the insulation (prevents oxidation of the bare copper)
3. Consider using a torch rather than an iron for silver soldering (heats faster)
4. Use the right flux - Unlike lead/tin alloy solder with "resin" inside as flux, most silver solder is solid and you'll need an external flux.
5. Be meticulous in removing excess flux. Really...
So in short, silver soldering can be a PITA. Maybe it's better now (I haven't done any in a couple of decades), but back in the day...
But it's all academic for interconnects. No silver needed - "standard" electronics solder works fine. No exceptionally high temperatures. It's all good!
Boom
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Post by Casey Leedom on Jul 21, 2019 16:27:56 GMT -5
Also note that most Oscilloscopes use Silver Solder as far as I remember. And their signal integrity and noise issues are far more rigorous than simple Audio Frequency stuff. My bet is that high quality Lead Solder would probably be fine, but I'm also guessing that there's a lot of very poor quality Lead Solder out there ...
Casey
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I bought a spool of it some time back and also run it in-wall through smurf tube in my studio and between systems, the small diameter makes it good for running several cables in a single tube. Even with techflex I’m sure you’ll find the look anemic. I just modified the L/R below for bi-amping so now they create a double Y. I’m about to make up another pair with a right angle Neutrik Male for my new subwoofers.
