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Post by mick on Jul 26, 2019 17:27:23 GMT -5
That all looks right to me.... However, let me add one or two things....
In a balanced connection, the two signal wires are normally twisted together as a pair, which helps ensure that they are equally exposed to outside noise sources. For example, if the pair is run next to another cable, which is a source of noise, the individual wires take turns being next to it, which helps ensure that they pick up the noise equally.
And, from the point of view of the signal lines, any noise that is present on the ground line is "equally in both channels - relatively speaking:, and so is rejected along with other common mode noise.
And, incidentally, where you described "a type of comparator circuit"........ That circuit is an amplifier with a differential input (which is designed to amplify and pass the difference between two input signals while rejecting anything that is common to both. (And that's the "differential input" we are referring to when we talk about a differential input on a balanced input.)
In my Pre-Purchase "Research" for a new 2-Channel Preamplifier - I've been learning a bit about this issue as well From what it sounds like: BALANCED CIRCUITS:Are a particularly nice way to reduce noise / improve the Signal-To-Noise (S/N) Ratio within various Audio Signal Amplification and/or Processing circuits. They appear to have the most / greatest advantage over Non-Balanced equivalent circuits where the Input Signal is very miniscule. Essentially, whatever is the SAME (usually noise of various types) in Both Sides of a Balanced Circuit gets nulled-out while whatever is DIFFERENT gets amplified / passed-on to the next stage. The trade-off is that Balanced Circuits are usually significantly more complex (more components) and require greater "attention to detail" in their design and execution. There are other schools of thought where some designers believe in minimizing the quantity of components and keeping the signal paths as short as possible (SIMPLICITY) produces less opportunities for noise to get-in and/or to be produced by the components. BALANCED (ANALOG)CONNECTIONS:Similar to Balanced Circuits - There are (2) Separate wires that are SEPARATED FROM GROUND carrying the signal from one end to the other. At the "Receiving End" the signals are run-through a type of Comparitor Circuit. Any Electrical Noise that is able to get through the shielding on the cable will usually produce the SAME noise in BOTH wires. This circuit is able to null-out (ignore) any such noise signals that are the same in both wires, producing a very LOW noise floor. Also, because GROUND (Earth Ground or Chassis Ground) is separated from the "Signal" conductors - they help to minimize ground loops / ground "hum" noises between components. (Balanced Connections are usually only bonded to Ground at ONE End - "Ground" IS NOT used as one of the "Signal" Conductors like it is within a typical RCA type unbalance cable) If you are running line-level (CD Analog Out or Pre-Out to an Amplifier In) over a SHORT distance, the advantages of a Balanced Connection over un-balanced are not as great, provided that high-quality cables and connectors are used at both ends. But all things being equal - Balanced offers less opportunity for noise and better isolation against grounding issues. Balance Circuits provide the greatest advantage when signals need to be transmitted over relatively long distances [such as a Stage Microphone at a Concert being connected, via a multi-channel "snake cable" to a mixing console in the Sound Booth, and then back to the Speakers flanking the Stage through a different set of wires in the snake. Here the Balanced Connection handles the VERY Low-Level Signal output from the mics and keeps them from interfering with eachother (cross-talk) and with the Speaker Feeds via numerous Balanced Circuits] [Similar to the situation in more complex Home Theater Systems where you "movie-junkies" have an F-Ton of channels going between your Receiver / Decoder and your Amplifiers...][Or when you would rather put your shiny new Monoblock Amplifiers within 3 feet of your speakers and run a Balanced (Usually XLR Type Connector) Cable from your Pre-Amp, across the room to where you will be putting your Amp for that speaker. Going that sort of distance with an RCA Cable (Un-Balanced) would probably not be a good idea] "In a balanced connection, the two signal wires are normally twisted together as a pair, which helps ensure that they are equally exposed to outside noise sources." Would this also apply to twisted speaker wires, just asking as i wondered why they do that? if not don't answer, one thing at a time for me.  |
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Post by mick on Jul 26, 2019 17:34:45 GMT -5
Cross-posted from the other thread: FWIWFM a fully-differential circuit provides higher common-mode noise rejection, 3 dB better SNR, and cancellation of even-order distortion terms, among other things. It also facilitates isolating the signal path from earth (safety) ground to break ground loops. You are unlikely to hear a difference unless you have problems. I went with differential lines to my rear subs because they are long lines and the subs are on separate power circuits so noise and ground loops were a concern. I have plumbed my XMC-1 to my XPA-n amplifiers (PAs, y'a know  ) using RCA and XLR connections and not noticed a difference after calibrating for gain and all that jazz. A basic overview: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/differential-single-ended-balanced-unbalanced-and-all-that-jazz.1352/Ground loops with a side comment about differential operation: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ground-loops-101.7162/HTH - Don So basically it's all about eliminating noise and interference, balance to balance is the key? |
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Post by donh50 on Jul 26, 2019 22:30:40 GMT -5
"Reducing" noise and interference as well as distortion, hopefully, but often the difference is inaudible unless you have a ground loop or are in a very high-noise environment. If you have a ground loop balanced can help because you can break the outer shield path without affecting the primary signal path. With the average room's noise floor around 40~50 dB then reducing noise and distortion from -100 dB to -103 dB or whatever is not going to be audible... You can hear below the noise floor, but not another 50 dB down IME/IMO.
The links I provided have pictures and a little more detail. They are addressing mostly interconnections and not differential (or balanced either) amplifier topologies. How much balanced output operation improves the sound when driving a single-ended speaker that generates much more distortion than the amp is a frequent debate.
In my world (mostly GHz stuff) most all the analog circuits are fully differential to get the performance and isolation required by the application. In the audio world I have found it beneficial in the pro sound world (where I have run 100+ foot snakes with mic and line level signals in the trough with speaker cables -- not by choice!) and the occasional consumer system that had serious issues like ground loops or high RFI/EMI.
Ironically, some of the very expensive gear that has been measured actually has worse performance in balanced operation than single-ended.
IME/IMO/FWIWFM/my 0.000001 cent (microcent) - Don
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 27, 2019 10:30:03 GMT -5
... How many speakers does it take to have a good Atmos system, and i dont want to have 16 speakers as i don't have the room? ... Good focused discussion about balanced systems here. Try this thread for the Atmos question. emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/964670/thread |
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Post by davidl81 on Jul 27, 2019 10:59:25 GMT -5
What matters between components is whether you have a balanced connection or not. And, if you want a "fully balanced system" then all of your components must offer a fully balanced signal path and they must all be connected together with balanced connections. (A fully balanced system MUST use all balanced connections... and all balanced components... but not all systems that use balanced connections are fully balanced.)
Note that a piece of gear, like a preamp, could have balanced inputs and outputs, yet still not have a fully balanced internal signal path (it's not that uncommon). In that case, you would get all of the benefits of balanced connections, which are the more important of the two, but would miss out on a few of the benefits of having a fully balanced system.
Things like "dual differential" and "quad differential" refer to specific types of circuitry inside the individual components and how certain things are done internally. They all relate to the performance of the individual piece of gear... so there's no specific need to "match them" on different components.
Ok, starting to get the hang of things, XLR to XLR is balanced But XLR to RCA is not? How many speakers does it take to have a good Atmos system, and i dont want to have 16 speakers as i don't have the room? In what configuration makes a good Atoms system? I think this is my last question unless you throw me a curve ball I have a 7.2.4 Atmos setup in a fairly small room (7 main speakers and 4 overhead). To me it seems fully encompassing. I don’t think I could fit more speakers in the room even if I wanted to. But I think you could get away wit as little as 5 main speakers and 2 overhead. I think the 7.4 is where the money is at. Anything over that unless in a huge room would only be marginal gains IMO. |
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Post by mick on Jul 27, 2019 11:54:51 GMT -5
Ok, starting to get the hang of things, XLR to XLR is balanced But XLR to RCA is not? How many speakers does it take to have a good Atmos system, and i dont want to have 16 speakers as i don't have the room? In what configuration makes a good Atoms system? I think this is my last question unless you throw me a curve ball I have a 7.2.4 Atmos setup in a fairly small room (7 main speakers and 4 overhead). To me it seems fully encompassing. I don’t think I could fit more speakers in the room even if I wanted to. But I think you could get away wit as little as 5 main speakers and 2 overhead. I think the 7.4 is where the money is at. Anything over that unless in a huge room would only be marginal gains IMO. Thanks David, i was thinking the same, 7.2.4 would be a good fit for me and my room size, i really don't want to go over the top with speakers with little gain. So, i have 5x XPA-1L's find 3 more 1L's, buy a DR3 for fronts, trade up to RMC-1L, from a balanced point of view as well, i think this set up should work well using all XLR cables, i think i have made my mind up now, as this system should last me for many years to come. Hey Kieth, would still like to see your tables though, Cheers guys and thank you for all your help in trying to understand the balanced thingy |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 27, 2019 19:43:43 GMT -5
In theory the same logic would apply. However, because speaker wires operate at a much lower impedance, they are much less sensitive to picking up noise or interference to begin with. Therefore, while there might be some theoretical benefit to twisting a speaker cable, in most cases it probably really wouldn't make a significant difference. That all looks right to me.... However, let me add one or two things....
In a balanced connection, the two signal wires are normally twisted together as a pair, which helps ensure that they are equally exposed to outside noise sources. For example, if the pair is run next to another cable, which is a source of noise, the individual wires take turns being next to it, which helps ensure that they pick up the noise equally.
And, from the point of view of the signal lines, any noise that is present on the ground line is "equally in both channels - relatively speaking:, and so is rejected along with other common mode noise. And, incidentally, where you described "a type of comparator circuit"........ That circuit is an amplifier with a differential input (which is designed to amplify and pass the difference between two input signals while rejecting anything that is common to both. (And that's the "differential input" we are referring to when we talk about a differential input on a balanced input.)
"In a balanced connection, the two signal wires are normally twisted together as a pair, which helps ensure that they are equally exposed to outside noise sources." Would this also apply to twisted speaker wires, just asking as i wondered why they do that? if not don't answer, one thing at a time for me. |
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Post by KeithL on Jul 27, 2019 19:49:08 GMT -5
In terms of a balanced connection yes.... And, yes, it only works if you're connecting a balanced output to a balanced input using a balanced cable. With most modern audio equipment it usually won't matter... and, in most cases, unbalanced connections will be perfectly clean and quiet. However, it becomes more important when you're using long cables, or when cables run next to power cables or near power lines. (For example, wires run through the wall to a powered subwoofer, where they may pass near power lines or noise sources like fluorescent lights.) I generally tell people that I wouldn't worry about it unless they notice a noise problem - and I usually use unbalanced connections for short runs. However, I would use balanced cables if I were going to run permanent wires in the wall or for long runs - especially to a subwoofer.... (They don't cost much extra - and you really wouldn't want to find out you have one of the rare situations where it matters after the wall is closed up.) Cross-posted from the other thread: FWIWFM a fully-differential circuit provides higher common-mode noise rejection, 3 dB better SNR, and cancellation of even-order distortion terms, among other things. It also facilitates isolating the signal path from earth (safety) ground to break ground loops. You are unlikely to hear a difference unless you have problems. I went with differential lines to my rear subs because they are long lines and the subs are on separate power circuits so noise and ground loops were a concern. I have plumbed my XMC-1 to my XPA-n amplifiers (PAs, y'a know ) using RCA and XLR connections and not noticed a difference after calibrating for gain and all that jazz. A basic overview: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/differential-single-ended-balanced-unbalanced-and-all-that-jazz.1352/Ground loops with a side comment about differential operation: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ground-loops-101.7162/HTH - Don So basically it's all about eliminating noise and interference, balance to balance is the key? |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 27, 2019 21:34:36 GMT -5
... Would this also apply to twisted speaker wires, just asking as i wondered why they do that? if not don't answer, one thing at a time for me. One of the more popular speaker cables (and my personal favorite) uses twisted / star wires — Canare 4S11. I’m personally not sure twisting the wires makes it sound better or quieter (at least that I can hear), but it’s well built — high quality copper and insulation — and easy to work with (albeit a bit large). If there is any advantage to the twisting in a hostile electrical environment, you have it, and it’s stronger pulling the cable through tight conduit (3/8” techflex fits nicely too) What I really like about 4S11 is that if you want standard two conductor speaker wire, you connect the two reddish and two whitish wires together, this gives the equivalent of 11 AWG speaker wire, plenty beefy for most runs and purists. If later you decide you want to bi-wire, you separate the wires at the speaker end and hook them to the four speaker terminals. If later you decide you want to bi-amp you separate the wires at the amp end and hook them up to the four amp terminals. Even separated you have 14 AWG (0.0025 Ohms / ft), you can even run stereo (or 2 separate channels) on it — run it once and use it however you need. Monoprice and others make a cheaper version of this I use for stereo Zone runs, but the copper and insulation aren’t as nice. Here’s some 4S11 made up for bi-wire  |
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Post by leonski on Aug 5, 2019 2:23:56 GMT -5
I don't know from pricing on the Canare4, but Blue Jeans sold it at one time....maybe still do. And for a small additional fee, they'll terminate one end or BOTH to your liking.
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Post by mick on Aug 5, 2019 3:30:34 GMT -5
... Would this also apply to twisted speaker wires, just asking as i wondered why they do that? if not don't answer, one thing at a time for me. One of the more popular speaker cables (and my personal favorite) uses twisted / star wires — Canare 4S11. I’m personally not sure twisting the wires makes it sound better or quieter (at least that I can hear), but it’s well built — high quality copper and insulation — and easy to work with (albeit a bit large). If there is any advantage to the twisting in a hostile electrical environment, you have it, and it’s stronger pulling the cable through tight conduit (3/8” techflex fits nicely too) What I really like about 4S11 is that if you want standard two conductor speaker wire, you connect the two reddish and two whitish wires together, this gives the equivalent of 11 AWG speaker wire, plenty beefy for most runs and purists. If later you decide you want to bi-wire, you separate the wires at the speaker end and hook them to the four speaker terminals. If later you decide you want to bi-amp you separate the wires at the amp end and hook them up to the four amp terminals. Even separated you have 14 AWG (0.0025 Ohms / ft), you can even run stereo (or 2 separate channels) on it — run it once and use it however you need. Monoprice and others make a cheaper version of this I use for stereo Zone runs, but the copper and insulation aren’t as nice. Here’s some 4S11 made up for bi-wire Can't find Canare 4S11. twisted on Monoprice Web Site for by wire. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 5, 2019 7:00:09 GMT -5
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 5, 2019 11:04:36 GMT -5
You can find it from plenty of other places..... for example:
(The real Canare brand cable is very nice to work with and, at $1.50 a foot, it's not going to bust your budget either.)
One of the more popular speaker cables (and my personal favorite) uses twisted / star wires — Canare 4S11. I’m personally not sure twisting the wires makes it sound better or quieter (at least that I can hear), but it’s well built — high quality copper and insulation — and easy to work with (albeit a bit large). If there is any advantage to the twisting in a hostile electrical environment, you have it, and it’s stronger pulling the cable through tight conduit (3/8” techflex fits nicely too) What I really like about 4S11 is that if you want standard two conductor speaker wire, you connect the two reddish and two whitish wires together, this gives the equivalent of 11 AWG speaker wire, plenty beefy for most runs and purists. If later you decide you want to bi-wire, you separate the wires at the speaker end and hook them to the four speaker terminals. If later you decide you want to bi-amp you separate the wires at the amp end and hook them up to the four amp terminals. Even separated you have 14 AWG (0.0025 Ohms / ft), you can even run stereo (or 2 separate channels) on it — run it once and use it however you need. Monoprice and others make a cheaper version of this I use for stereo Zone runs, but the copper and insulation aren’t as nice. Here’s some 4S11 made up for bi-wire Can't find Canare 4S11. twisted on Monoprice Web Site for by wire. |
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Post by leonski on Aug 5, 2019 21:20:47 GMT -5
At BJC (Blue Jeans Cable) the Canare is 1.63$ per foot in GREY or BLACK.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 5, 2019 22:12:22 GMT -5
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Post by leonski on Aug 9, 2019 0:37:59 GMT -5
I can't even find the 12ga Belden Power cord from a USA vendor without spending huge sums.
Parts Express gets 10$ per foot IF I buy 100 feet or more. shorter is more $$ per foot......
I think it's 83803 and is highly regarded and not a 'snake oil' product. I'd use it for ANY high powered monoblock.
Audio? EVERYTHING is going to the moon, price wise. Fasten seat belt.
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Post by KeithL on Aug 9, 2019 10:11:38 GMT -5
I looked at the spec sheet for Belden 83803.... It looks like very nice cable.
$10/foot is just about what I would expect for wire with Teflon inner and outer insulation. However, while that looks like very high quality wire, I don't think I would use it for a line cord. (It really isn't especially well optimized for that application... it looks better optimized for "wire in place" industrial applications.)
Teflon has several benefits - and a few significant drawbacks..... - Teflon is very tolerant of high temperatures. (That makes it a pleasure to solder, but doesn't matter much for a line cord, being used in residential installations.) - Teflon is very resistant to various chemicals and solvents.
(Again, great in harsh industrial environments, and makes it easy to clean flux off after you solder it, but not very important for home use.) - Teflon has an excellent service life. (It doesn't get brittle, or stiff, or soft, when it ages... even if used in very warm environments.)
- Teflon is extremely resistant to abrasion.
(However, compared to other options, it is actually somewhat soft, and more susceptible to being pinched, or crushed, or stepped on.) - Teflon is somewhat stiff. (Compared to other options in cable insulation.) - Teflon can be slightly more difficult to strip cleanly than other options.
Structurally, each of the 12 gauge conductors is made up of 7 x 20 gauge strands. (That's fewer fatter strands than most other line cords.)
There's nothing wrong with any of that electrically. However, compared to other line cords, it's going to be quite stiff.
(The specified minimum bend radius is over 3". Although, for better or worse, it's going to tend to stay in place when you bend it.)
All in all, a nice quality cable, but you're going to be paying for a lot of extras that aren't really important in a home power cable. And, in the end, you are going to end up with a somewhat stiff, somewhat clunky, cable. And, no, it isn't going to make your audio gear sound any different than any other copper cable of similar gauge.
(For a line cord I would personally prefer something with finer strands and PVC outer insulation..... but, for what it is, the price is not at all unreasonable.) I can't even find the 12ga Belden Power cord from a USA vendor without spending huge sums. Parts Express gets 10$ per foot IF I buy 100 feet or more. shorter is more $$ per foot...... I think it's 83803 and is highly regarded and not a 'snake oil' product. I'd use it for ANY high powered monoblock. Audio? EVERYTHING is going to the moon, price wise. Fasten seat belt. |
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Post by leonski on Aug 9, 2019 11:58:41 GMT -5
From our FWIW department, the 83803 has QUITE the DIY following in the line cord area. And perhaps a few non-fans, as well. diyaudioprojects.com/Power/diyMains/This would be on my short-list IF I had very high power Monoblock amps. I'm certain that few amps except perhaps High $$$ ones come with heavy cable like this. For more reasonable cost AND for lesser powered equipment including nearly everything else? Belden makes 19364 which is 14-3 and also fully shieleed. This makes more sense for a LOT of applications and is far less costly. It's a 41x30 construction which should be VERY flexible and they skip the Teflon. I would expect this to be in the 3$ to 4$ per foot range. This is MY choice to record my Parasound amps and would also work for the vast majority of EMO amps, as well, and NOT break the bank. |
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) using RCA and XLR connections and not noticed a difference after calibrating for gain and all that jazz.
