KeithL
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Posts: 9,934
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Post by KeithL on Jan 28, 2021 14:19:08 GMT -5
The short answer is that they are recorded differently...
Most older jazz albums feature acoustic instruments and are recorded rather simply using a few microphones...
Most rock albums feature at least some "electric instruments" and are recorded through the mixer or console... And, to be blunt, those jazz albums were just plain mixed to sound "mellow"...
While most more modern rock albums are already subject to a wide variety of special effects between the microphone and the recording...
And they're mixed to sound crisp, and sharp, and for some of the instruments to have bite to them...
As a result of both most rock albums have more higher order harmonics already...
The mix has a LOT more to do with how a recording sounds than many people seem to think. (If you've ever made a simple recording of a live show... then you know that it rarely sounds anything like the show itself or the professionally mixed version.)
The single biggest part of that "tube magic" is an extra helping of second harmonic distortion... That's the part that makes voices sound fuller and smoother and instruments sound smoother and more liquid... And you've got the monotonic distortion profile... which makes the louder parts sound smoother and less harsh...
The answer to your question is pretty much the same as the reason why yellow sunglasses make a warm sunny day seem even sunnier and warmer...
But they don't usually do the same thing at all for the LASER lighting at a rock concert... And you generally wouldn't want to wear them while watching TV either...
Rock recordings tend to start out with more higher harmonics and a harsher sound... Therefore they don't "benefit" nearly as much from a little added "warm schmaltz"...
You're not going to hear those extra 2nd harmonics over the sound of a fuzz guitar...
You're also not going to hear them over the pile of 2nd harmonics already added to Blue Bayou by the Aphex Exciter... But you might notice them on a clean jazz recording... Especially if it sounds a little dry to begin with because the recording was done with very close microphones.
Why is this? When I play jazz it is always on vinyl. Of course I have some vinyl for rock and blues from before CDs. Why is it that my jazz records always sound like 'magic' with my tube gear and the rock and blues stuff is 'same old' ? - Just nothing special at all. The jazz albums are probably as old as the rock and blues so its not a matter of old vinyl vs new vinyl.
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Post by DavidR on Jan 28, 2021 14:25:49 GMT -5
Wow... " getting close to the time where I will need to replace them" ....
Back when tubes were current technology power output tubes wore out now and then... But preamp tubes like the 12AX7 were expected to last for twenty or thirty years unless something went wrong... (And most devices like preamps served their entire life with the same tubes they came with...)
I have a CD player with a pair of 12AX7 tubes in the output. Currently it has Psvane tubes that came with it. It's getting close to the time where I will need to replace them. A new pair of Psvane 12AX7 are approx $82. I found some NOS (military) Brimar tubes that are listed as "The Holy Grail". A pair of matched tubes are twice as much. Any of you have experience with the Psvane or, more importantly, the Brimar (made in England)? I also have a pair of NOS G.E. tubes in the drawer that may be from like the 60's. My recollection is a 12AX7 and variants last about 10,000 to 12,000 hours. I definitely have more tubes than I can possibly go thru in my time left here on earth.............but after that, who knows
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Post by DavidR on Jun 17, 2021 23:03:08 GMT -5
Has anyone tried the new Psvane 12AU7-S or the 12AX7-S tubes. They're supposed to be pretty nice and I've never been big on new production tubes except for the Psvane (older style) 12AX7 tubes in my CD player. Statement: "You can expect a very rich, detailed and warm sound from these tubes, even better than it’s predecessor."
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Post by leonski on Jun 28, 2021 15:54:39 GMT -5
Roughly 35 years ago, I took out (on consignment) a California Audio Labs tube analog CD 💿 player from a high end audio salon, using only a credit card 💳 as collateral. I played with the thing for a day, pitted against a run of the mill Magnavox player, and was unable to hear an iota of difference between the two. The ONLY difference I could come up with was a grand and a half difference in the price tag, and the identical remote from the CAL, later attached to a cheap CD player on a shelf at my local Sears. Aren’t credit cards great 👍. Bill I have the player I'll BET you compared to.... A Magnevox FD1000 which is a rebrand of the original Philips player. 14bit dac. 3x oversampling. I bought the demo (last one) at I think Pacific Stereo.....in about '83......... I still have the original 3 discs I bought later that day.....
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Post by leonski on Jun 28, 2021 16:03:55 GMT -5
I've just been looking at the VTA amps. The KITS are an incredible value. I'm tempted.
ST70 Kit is 1064$ with 6550 tube (not EL34) and capacitor board upgrade. ST120 Kit is 1284, same tubes and with the cap upgrade board.
A REAL pro might build the kit in a single 10 hour day. I'll double that and do it in 4x5 hour blocks.
Add a couple hundred for ASSEMBLED......
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Post by DavidR on Jun 28, 2021 16:31:27 GMT -5
I've just been looking at the VTA amps. The KITS are an incredible value. I'm tempted. ST70 Kit is 1064$ with 6550 tube (not EL34) and capacitor board upgrade. ST120 Kit is 1284, same tubes and with the cap upgrade board. A REAL pro might build the kit in a single 10 hour day. I'll double that and do it in 4x5 hour blocks. Add a couple hundred for ASSEMBLED...... Bob Latino is a great guy and very helpful to DIYs. Very nice sounding amp but I use NOS tubes for the 2 inverters and center/amplifier driver tubes. My output tubes are new production Tung Sol 6550.
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Post by boomzilla on Jun 29, 2021 0:54:32 GMT -5
I've tried 6550s, and prefer either EL34s (for musical tone) or KT90s (for power & clean bass). That said, I'm doubting that I'll ever buy another tube power amplifier or integrated amp. Why? I find the output tubes change their sound much too quickly. When new, the output tubes sound significantly differently than when they get some hours on them. I don't like that.
Since preamp tubes have much longer and more consistent service lives, I think that using a tube preamplifier with a solid-state power amp gives the best of both worlds. This combination gives excellent tube sound (tunable by tube rolling with relatively inexpensive tubes) and high power output without variation (and at lower cost per output watt).
My most successful pairing was back in the day with a Frank Van Alstine modified Dynaco PAS tube preamplifier and an Adcom GFA-1 power cube amplifier. YMMV
Boomzilla
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Post by leonski on Jun 29, 2021 14:42:42 GMT -5
Just a thought? After say.....100 hours when you may begin to notice a change in the 'sound' of your tube amp? RECHECK THE BIAS. It of course, as you know, DRIFTS with time......there are other 'matchable' parameters when dealing with tubes, and unless you have a VERY advanced tube checker, you may not even be able to fully characterize.
time of day and power 'cleanliness' may also play into this, but you have all the tools you need already for this idea......
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Post by leonski on Jul 1, 2021 0:21:21 GMT -5
One thing MORE about tubes. The ST70 / ST120 use the same driver board. The information provided says they use 12AU7 tubes on the driver board.....3 of 'em in a described configuration. Well? That is one of THE more disliked tubes. Nobody is inbetween on this.
I don't know how to evaluate this. And? Just for Giggles....I went to Tube Depot. They sell a DOZEN or more of this tube. The related and mostly interchangeable? 12BH7? I think they sell 3 of 'em......I have yet to check for the related 5963 / 5814 j OR 6189/.
One person talking about these different tubes pointe to the different GAIN of each....
It's all very new to someone used to dealing with MOSFET / JFET / and a few types of DIODE.........
And yes, boom, preamp tubes last a LONG time. One power amp company.....DECWARE makes all sorts of claims due to running the OutPut tubes in a very conservative fashion......I don't see why not?
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Post by DavidR on Jul 1, 2021 9:29:57 GMT -5
One thing MORE about tubes. The ST70 / ST120 use the same driver board. The information provided says they use 12AU7 tubes on the driver board.....3 of 'em in a described configuration. Well? That is one of THE more disliked tubes. Nobody is inbetween on this. I don't know how to evaluate this. And? Just for Giggles....I went to Tube Depot. They sell a DOZEN or more of this tube. The related and mostly interchangeable? 12BH7? I think they sell 3 of 'em......I have yet to check for the related 5963 / 5814 j OR 6189/. One person talking about these different tubes pointe to the different GAIN of each.... It's all very new to someone used to dealing with MOSFET / JFET / and a few types of DIODE......... And yes, boom, preamp tubes last a LONG time. One power amp company.....DECWARE makes all sorts of claims due to running the OutPut tubes in a very conservative fashion......I don't see why not? The amps don't have a big enough power supply to run three 12BH7 tubes. The outer two are just inverters and the center one is the amplifier and most influential on SQ.
The 12AU7 has LOTS of variants. There are some nice sounding NOS 5963, JA-5814A and CV4003.
I have about a dozen NOS 12BH7 tubes and might part with a Tung Sol from the late 50s/early 60s - just don't recall the date code at the moment.
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 1, 2021 9:52:51 GMT -5
One thing MORE about tubes. The ST70 / ST120 use the same driver board. The information provided says they use 12AU7 tubes on the driver board.....3 of 'em in a described configuration. Well? That is one of THE more disliked tubes. Nobody is inbetween on this. I don't know how to evaluate this. And? Just for Giggles....I went to Tube Depot. They sell a DOZEN or more of this tube. The related and mostly interchangeable? 12BH7? I think they sell 3 of 'em......I have yet to check for the related 5963 / 5814 j OR 6189/. One person talking about these different tubes pointe to the different GAIN of each.... It's all very new to someone used to dealing with MOSFET / JFET / and a few types of DIODE......... And yes, boom, preamp tubes last a LONG time. One power amp company.....DECWARE makes all sorts of claims due to running the OutPut tubes in a very conservative fashion......I don't see why not? My suggestion would be to join the VTA/Dynaco forum that is moderated by Bob Latino and Roy Mottram, the people behind these excellent amps and preamps and ask them about the 12AU7 and variants, or post on the board and ask the members who have actually used the tubes. Also, PrimaLuna, a highly respected brand, uses 12AU7's in their preamp sections. If it was such a bad tube I don't think they would be using them.
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Post by DavidR on Jul 1, 2021 13:15:34 GMT -5
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Post by DavidR on Jul 1, 2021 13:22:17 GMT -5
My suggestion would be to join the VTA/Dynaco forum that is moderated by Bob Latino and Roy Mottram, the people behind these excellent amps and preamps and ask them about the 12AU7 and variants, or post on the board and ask the members who have actually used the tubes. Also, PrimaLuna, a highly respected brand, uses 12AU7's in their preamp sections. If it was such a bad tube I don't think they would be using them. Bob is excellent person to deal with and honest IMO.
I wouldn't trust Roy with anything and he IS dishonest. I know first hand. He still hasn't handed over the FULL documentation with pictures and wiring schematics for his design phono and preamp boards.
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Post by leonski on Jul 1, 2021 14:17:00 GMT -5
One thing MORE about tubes. The ST70 / ST120 use the same driver board. The information provided says they use 12AU7 tubes on the driver board.....3 of 'em in a described configuration. Well? That is one of THE more disliked tubes. Nobody is inbetween on this. I don't know how to evaluate this. And? Just for Giggles....I went to Tube Depot. They sell a DOZEN or more of this tube. The related and mostly interchangeable? 12BH7? I think they sell 3 of 'em......I have yet to check for the related 5963 / 5814 j OR 6189/. One person talking about these different tubes pointe to the different GAIN of each.... It's all very new to someone used to dealing with MOSFET / JFET / and a few types of DIODE......... And yes, boom, preamp tubes last a LONG time. One power amp company.....DECWARE makes all sorts of claims due to running the OutPut tubes in a very conservative fashion......I don't see why not? My suggestion would be to join the VTA/Dynaco forum that is moderated by Bob Latino and Roy Mottram, the people behind these excellent amps and preamps and ask them about the 12AU7 and variants, or post on the board and ask the members who have actually used the tubes. Also, PrimaLuna, a highly respected brand, uses 12AU7's in their preamp sections. If it was such a bad tube I don't think they would be using them. I agree. If it is THAT bad? Why bother? I suspect circuit and implimentation is very important here. Parts ain't parts.
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Post by leonski on Jul 1, 2021 14:27:40 GMT -5
OMG! so Many! And from <20$ to 'must ask'....which is always a Bad Sign..... Where the heck to start? Since this is a sales site, I'll just keep prices in mind. What I really need is some kind of survey....though I suspect the amp will COME with a fine set of driver tubes. I need to see if there is any advantage to replacing the 'center' or 'common' tube with something else and leaving the 12AU7s on 'the side'....
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 1, 2021 14:38:03 GMT -5
OMG! so Many! And from <20$ to 'must ask'....which is always a Bad Sign..... Where the heck to start? Since this is a sales site, I'll just keep prices in mind. What I really need is some kind of survey....though I suspect the amp will COME with a fine set of driver tubes. I need to see if there is any advantage to replacing the 'center' or 'common' tube with something else and leaving the 12AU7s on 'the side'.... Just my cheap opinion based on reading forum discussions on tubes... taking other people's opinions about tubes needs to also be taken with a block of salt. There is so much variability among tubes as well as people's perceptions of what it sounds like, and also a whole aura around certain brands and models of tubes, that I get a headache just reading all those discussions. There are some people who just have an obsession with rolling tubes and also care so much about what other people have to say about the tubes and if they want to be incessant rollers that is fine but when it comes to the descriptions, to me it is like people reviewing wines. You get all kinds of descriptions, often inconsistent, and the wines with the highest reputations always get high praise. Except from those who want to rock the boat and make a completely opposite review just to garner attention. You can only get a vague idea of what a wine is going to taste like by reading all the subjective descriptions people give and I'd say the same about tubes. You can go nuts obsessing over them. In my VTA ST-120 I replaced the driver tube with a clear top RCA that cost about $20 and it sounded great to me so I never bothered to change it. When I got the PrimaLuna integrated amp I left well enough alone and had no desire to change out any of the tubes. Bob Latino says that the center 12AU7 has the most effect on the sound character of his amps and the two side tubes have little, if any effect.
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Post by audiobill on Jul 1, 2021 15:10:04 GMT -5
The original VTA driver board used 12at7 instead of 12au7. These tubes are different gain (12ax7, 12at7, 12au7) from highest to lowest.
I have seen 6sn7 used in the center position with an adapter plug.
The 12bh7 is interchangeable with a 12au7.
The VTA power supplies are plenty robust to meet your preferrnces.
I’ve built more than 100 of these amps, fwiw, very conservative design.
Ps 12au7s are a fine sounding tube.
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Post by ttocs on Jul 1, 2021 15:10:45 GMT -5
Just my cheap opinion based on reading forum discussions on tubes... taking other people's opinions about tubes needs to also be taken with a block of salt How much is a block of salt? I'm not a tube roller. I've done only a few changes between the power tubes and the rectifier (tube vs Weber). But it's still interesting to me to read some of the descriptions from folks who do. Like anything, we can be as nuts as we wants to be so long as it's all good fun, and that's just fine and dandy. For the record, right after I built my kits I tried the Tung-Sol 5AR4 rectifier, then the Weber WS-1 and stuck with the Weber. Then last year I went from KT88 to KT120 and stuck with the 120's.
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Post by DavidR on Jul 1, 2021 16:56:40 GMT -5
OMG! so Many! And from <20$ to 'must ask'....which is always a Bad Sign..... Where the heck to start? Since this is a sales site, I'll just keep prices in mind. What I really need is some kind of survey....though I suspect the amp will COME with a fine set of driver tubes. I need to see if there is any advantage to replacing the 'center' or 'common' tube with something else and leaving the 12AU7s on 'the side'.... I did not post it as a possible sales site. Merely to have you see the available tubes in that family. The RCA Clear Top 12AU7 has many fans and they are not too expensive and plentiful.
Someones list of what's good>
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 1, 2021 17:49:17 GMT -5
Just my cheap opinion based on reading forum discussions on tubes... taking other people's opinions about tubes needs to also be taken with a block of salt How much is a block of salt? I'm not a tube roller. I've done only a few changes between the power tubes and the rectifier (tube vs Weber). But it's still interesting to me to read some of the descriptions from folks who do. Like anything, we can be as nuts as we wants to be so long as it's all good fun, and that's just fine and dandy. For the record, right after I built my kits I tried the Tung-Sol 5AR4 rectifier, then the Weber WS-1 and stuck with the Weber. Then last year I went from KT88 to KT120 and stuck with the 120's. Well a block is a bit more than a grain. Like you said, it's all good fun so people can do whatever they want. What I find is crazy are those people who post that they have an amp on order (like a PrimaLuna) and before they get it they're already asking people for suggestions on replacing the tubes. And then they take the advice of people they don't even know without even listening to the unit with the stock tubes. But it's all good fun. I had a tube rectifier in my ST-120 for several years but then it blew out. Bob Latino doesn't recommend a tube rectifier if the time delay mechanism is installed (which I have) but it worked fine all that time. I replaced it with another tube and that one blew out very quickly. So now there's that short Weber in there and that seems to work well.
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