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Post by audiobill on Jul 1, 2021 18:02:38 GMT -5
The short answer is that they are recorded differently...
Most older jazz albums feature acoustic instruments and are recorded rather simply using a few microphones...
Most rock albums feature at least some "electric instruments" and are recorded through the mixer or console... And, to be blunt, those jazz albums were just plain mixed to sound "mellow"...
While most more modern rock albums are already subject to a wide variety of special effects between the microphone and the recording...
And they're mixed to sound crisp, and sharp, and for some of the instruments to have bite to them...
As a result of both most rock albums have more higher order harmonics already...
The mix has a LOT more to do with how a recording sounds than many people seem to think. (If you've ever made a simple recording of a live show... then you know that it rarely sounds anything like the show itself or the professionally mixed version.)
The single biggest part of that "tube magic" is an extra helping of second harmonic distortion... That's the part that makes voices sound fuller and smoother and instruments sound smoother and more liquid... And you've got the monotonic distortion profile... which makes the louder parts sound smoother and less harsh...
The answer to your question is pretty much the same as the reason why yellow sunglasses make a warm sunny day seem even sunnier and warmer...
But they don't usually do the same thing at all for the LASER lighting at a rock concert... And you generally wouldn't want to wear them while watching TV either...
Rock recordings tend to start out with more higher harmonics and a harsher sound... Therefore they don't "benefit" nearly as much from a little added "warm schmaltz"...
You're not going to hear those extra 2nd harmonics over the sound of a fuzz guitar...
You're also not going to hear them over the pile of 2nd harmonics already added to Blue Bayou by the Aphex Exciter... But you might notice them on a clean jazz recording... Especially if it sounds a little dry to begin with because the recording was done with very close microphones.
Why is this? When I play jazz it is always on vinyl. Of course I have some vinyl for rock and blues from before CDs. Why is it that my jazz records always sound like 'magic' with my tube gear and the rock and blues stuff is 'same old' ? - Just nothing special at all. The jazz albums are probably as old as the rock and blues so its not a matter of old vinyl vs new vinyl.
@keithl , you make solid state sound so awful! How do you bring yourself to sell it ?
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Post by leonski on Jul 1, 2021 19:01:25 GMT -5
OMG! so Many! And from <20$ to 'must ask'....which is always a Bad Sign..... Where the heck to start? Since this is a sales site, I'll just keep prices in mind. What I really need is some kind of survey....though I suspect the amp will COME with a fine set of driver tubes. I need to see if there is any advantage to replacing the 'center' or 'common' tube with something else and leaving the 12AU7s on 'the side'.... Just my cheap opinion based on reading forum discussions on tubes... taking other people's opinions about tubes needs to also be taken with a block of salt. There is so much variability among tubes as well as people's perceptions of what it sounds like, and also a whole aura around certain brands and models of tubes, that I get a headache just reading all those discussions. There are some people who just have an obsession with rolling tubes and also care so much about what other people have to say about the tubes and if they want to be incessant rollers that is fine but when it comes to the descriptions, to me it is like people reviewing wines. You get all kinds of descriptions, often inconsistent, and the wines with the highest reputations always get high praise. Except from those who want to rock the boat and make a completely opposite review just to garner attention. You can only get a vague idea of what a wine is going to taste like by reading all the subjective descriptions people give and I'd say the same about tubes. You can go nuts obsessing over them. In my VTA ST-120 I replaced the driver tube with a clear top RCA that cost about $20 and it sounded great to me so I never bothered to change it. When I got the PrimaLuna integrated amp I left well enough alone and had no desire to change out any of the tubes. Bob Latino says that the center 12AU7 has the most effect on the sound character of his amps and the two side tubes have little, if any effect. Yes......Yes.....and need I add? Yes? I'd agree. What amp builder / manufacturer INTENTIONLLY hobbles their product with either BAD design or INFERIOR parts? Nobody who want to be in business more than 20 minutes.....
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Post by ttocs on Jul 1, 2021 19:02:33 GMT -5
How much is a block of salt? I'm not a tube roller. I've done only a few changes between the power tubes and the rectifier (tube vs Weber). But it's still interesting to me to read some of the descriptions from folks who do. Like anything, we can be as nuts as we wants to be so long as it's all good fun, and that's just fine and dandy. For the record, right after I built my kits I tried the Tung-Sol 5AR4 rectifier, then the Weber WS-1 and stuck with the Weber. Then last year I went from KT88 to KT120 and stuck with the 120's. Well a block is a bit more than a grain.
Like you said, it's all good fun so people can do whatever they want. What I find is crazy are those people who post that they have an amp on order (like a PrimaLuna) and before they get it they're already asking people for suggestions on replacing the tubes. And then they take the advice of people they don't even know without even listening to the unit with the stock tubes. But it's all good fun.I had a tube rectifier in my ST-120 for several years but then it blew out. Bob Latino doesn't recommend a tube rectifier if the time delay mechanism is installed (which I have) but it worked fine all that time. I replaced it with another tube and that one blew out very quickly. So now there's that short Weber in there and that seems to work well. I ordered both tube and SS rectifier with the kits, I wanted to try both. I also blew a rectifier tube (5AR4) when I didn't allow enough discharge time between shutdown and restart. I saw the tube flash brightly, then nothing. I ordered a couple more from Bob's suggested tube dealer vacuumtubevalues.com and got the new tubes in a couple days, really great service! After liking the WS1-T so much (in the post above I forgot to add the T (thermistor)) I quizzed Bob about the startup and he reassured me that the WS1-T slows the inrush current enough and not to worry. I guess it's not as much of a delay as a tube, but it's enough.
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Post by leonski on Jul 1, 2021 19:06:08 GMT -5
What is the size of the BLEED RESISTOR on the caps? Did you confirm that was OK? And the caps discharged in reasonable time upon power 'down'. ?
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Post by ttocs on Jul 1, 2021 20:28:29 GMT -5
I foolishly waited maybe half a minute for discharge that one time and I was operating on assumption that it was enough. After that, I put meters on the amp and timed the discharge to be about two minutes. So it hasn't happened since, nor has there been a reason to restart that quickly. I was testing some things and was simply impatient.
Yes, I checked the internals, everything was fine.
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Post by leonski on Jul 1, 2021 21:27:40 GMT -5
100% covered. Good job.....and SAFE.
I HATE it when 'that' happens.....ZAP!
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Post by leonski on Jul 4, 2021 1:07:17 GMT -5
I had a couple ideas: First? Power supply limits ultimate power of ANY amplifier. While some get all wrapped up over 'stored' energy, I found out something fairly interesting. A 6800ufd (microfarad) capacitor is a common value. Not huge, but certainly good, when used in a modern SS amps powersupply. And as it turns out? 6800ufd @50volts is 8.5 JOULES which is the real measure of energy in this case. A TUBE amp? Well they run a lot higher than 50 volts. So you end up with maybe a 100mfd (pretty small, right?) but as much as 500 volts. That's 12.5 JOULES which is a bunch higher. Start tossing in Multiple Capacitors and you can see where a tube amp might have quite the power potential. So? While the advertising guys crow about some huge capacitance value, they are LESS interested in what matters......Stored Energy. www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/capacitor-charge-calculator.phpFor the curious? I'm including a LINK to the calculator. You don't need to know the 'formula' and can run thru several what-ifs fairly quickly. What got me started? Well, I don't see any large capacitors on most tube amps. Hybrid amps with SS output and tube IN will follow commong SS practice wiht a LOT of capacitor. And before you point out that SMPS don't have much capacitance, either, keep in mind that they run at (compared to power line) a VERY high frequency which increases the opportunities to recharge. That HF hash can be a MESS to get rid of. And can effect measures for which special filters are necessary! The 2nd item which caught my eye was that certain output tubes are pretty much 'interchangeable' with several others. I'm not going to try to make a list, but in the case of the ST120 from Latino? It comes stock with a 6550 tube while you can simply install a KT88, rebias and continue. I'm not yet certain IF you get more power this way OR simply (more likely?) a little more headroom AND a slight alternation in the sound CHARACTER. You may prefer ONE to the OTHER. Some tube amp owners make a 2nd profession out of Tube Rolling. The Latino amp uses a tube called 12AU7 on the INPUT side of the fence. But OH! What a mess if you ASK. Some persons simply do not like that tube! Others go to the trouble trying to explain why it is OK or NOT, depending on HOW it is used in a circuit. I'm still a littel UNCLEAR about this but it seems the consensus is that the tube which provides most of the GAIN is the one to change for better or different sound / presentation. The OTHER bit of weirdness I'm not used to, coming from a Transistorized World is that some of these tubes cost a BUNDLE. I've seen OUTPUT tubes (6550, so not an exotic) for OVER 600$ and een some input tubes for 250$....... But I would personally want to be locked up if caught spending THAT kind of coin on tubes. The Gold Lion KT88 goes as low as maybe 50$ each in MATCHED sets of 4.......And should last for years...... A complete tubeset of 7 tubes for either the ST70 OR ST120 should be 300$, give or take.......IF you are both careful and don't buy tubes made in the 50s.....(New Old Stock0 = NOS......which can really add to the pain.... This is quite a study.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 4, 2021 2:02:50 GMT -5
I hate throwing out old tubes … 😢
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Post by audiobill on Jul 4, 2021 8:26:46 GMT -5
Most people spend no more than $300 for a quad of 6550/KT88 and small tubes.
Don't get caught up in NOS, vintage, etc.
Tube thinking is very different than SS.
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,223
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Post by novisnick on Jul 4, 2021 12:45:00 GMT -5
If they’re burnt, Here’s your resource for op-art / deco-art project! 🤣🤣🤣
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Post by 405x5 on Jul 4, 2021 12:56:57 GMT -5
“Tube thinking is very different than SS.” Happily with “S.S.”…..there IS no “Tube thinking” at all
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Post by 405x5 on Jul 4, 2021 13:02:39 GMT -5
I love throwing out any tubes!
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Post by DavidR on Jul 4, 2021 13:37:01 GMT -5
Most people spend no more than $300 for a quad of 6550/KT88 and small tubes. Don't get caught up in NOS, vintage, etc. Tube thinking is very different than SS. If you're going to run new production driver tubes then you might as well stick with SS because that's what they sound like. If NOS output tubes were as plentiful as NOS driver tubes I'd use those, too. Too hard to find a properly matched set.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 4, 2021 13:51:52 GMT -5
If they’re burnt, Here’s your resource for op-art / deco-art project! 🤣🤣🤣 I was thinking the same thing, but have too many projects going right now. Fortunately, I did get my Bandmaster tuned up and tubed up, which led to testing a bunch of old tubes and coming up with these dead soldiers. Tomorrow’s trash day, I think they’ll be in it.
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Post by audiobill on Jul 4, 2021 14:00:13 GMT -5
“Tube thinking is very different than SS.” Happily with “S.S.”…..there IS no “Tube thinking” at all I like having both options in my system. Why choose?
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Post by leonski on Jul 4, 2021 14:36:25 GMT -5
“Tube thinking is very different than SS.” Happily with “S.S.”…..there IS no “Tube thinking” at all Please 405, it was ALL I COULD DO to resist a straight line like THAT....... I had to BITE the inside of my cheek to keep from letting a bad impulse (but funny!) take control Enjoy the 4th......
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Post by leonski on Jul 4, 2021 14:39:46 GMT -5
Happily with “S.S.”…..there IS no “Tube thinking” at all I like having both options in my system. Why choose? you just gave me an IDEA which I will SHARE, since nobody will take it seriously. Buy a bunch of tube sockets. And collect the appropriate old tubes. Get a transformer to supply enough filiment current for the lot. Spend the afternoon doing some wiring and fabrication of a case ..... Install the tubes, plug 'er in and BASK in the glow. All the benefits of tube with NONE of the problems...... It'd make a terrific NIGHT LIGHT and room heater. Perfect winter companion to keep the 'pipes' from freezing.
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Post by audiobill on Jul 4, 2021 14:58:15 GMT -5
Or just bask in the reflected glory......
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Post by 405x5 on Jul 4, 2021 16:08:51 GMT -5
Happily with “S.S.”…..there IS no “Tube thinking” at all I like having both options in my system. Why choose? Bill, Ya know that’s a GOOD question! Wait a minute I TAKE THAT BACK!!!! (Have a great 4th!) Nemesis Bill
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Post by mauriceminor on Jul 4, 2021 17:06:13 GMT -5
Will this be the next big thing . . .
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