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Post by steelman1991 on Apr 5, 2020 11:58:57 GMT -5
The AppleTV can handle most of the codecs (just not Atmos/DTS:X). It happily plays back TrueHD, DTS MA-HD and others, they're just presented to the processor in a different fashion, but identical in all ways. However like you I have a seperate player (Zidoo Z9S) which covers Atmos/DTS:X titles. In no way am I trying to cause conflict, but I think we've touched on this a few times. This is simply a disagreement with a smile and a hug. ☺ If I tell my PC software to decode the signal and send to my RMC via PCM, it absolutely does NOT sound identical nor as good. On paper, it seems like it should because " Lossless is lossless " , right? It is my experience that there is some magic that happens when you let your AVR/Processor/high end DAC do that decoding. If you have a way to do a side by side comparison, with full bitrate audio (not highly compressed from streaming services), test it out. It could always be "just me", but I remember learning this when the PS3 first came out. The difference of having the PS3 decode or my AVR was night and day. This doesn't mean there aren't good decoders out there because there are. I'm only implying that APTV, Xbox, PS4, Chromecast, etc.. Probably aren't as concerned about audio as Emotiva is. Let the AVR/Proc decode that signal via bitstream. No problem - I don't consider it conflict at all . I know you feel that is the case - but I haven't carried out a true A-B comparison. However I have watched several titles in LPCM from the ATV4K and the same via a Zidoo Z9S (as bitsreamed) and IMO there is no difference in presentation. Nor do I believe there should be. TrueHD, DTS HD-MA and other codecs are zipped up, similar to WinRAR files - though I'm sure you don't need me to explain that. All that is happening is the "unzipping" is happening in another place (not sure the processor would have any more advanced ways to do that than any of the devices mentioned). I'm not convinced that having the decode carried out prior to the RMC-1 makes any difference. As KeithL has posted in the past, these files started as LPCM before conversion to either of the proprietary brandings, therefore all that's happening is they are being decoded back to that state, for playback. In the interests of clarity I am discussing rips of disc media, not streaming services.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 5, 2020 12:40:05 GMT -5
In no way am I trying to cause conflict, but I think we've touched on this a few times. This is simply a disagreement with a smile and a hug. ☺ If I tell my PC software to decode the signal and send to my RMC via PCM, it absolutely does NOT sound identical nor as good. On paper, it seems like it should because " Lossless is lossless " , right? It is my experience that there is some magic that happens when you let your AVR/Processor/high end DAC do that decoding. If you have a way to do a side by side comparison, with full bitrate audio (not highly compressed from streaming services), test it out. It could always be "just me", but I remember learning this when the PS3 first came out. The difference of having the PS3 decode or my AVR was night and day. This doesn't mean there aren't good decoders out there because there are. I'm only implying that APTV, Xbox, PS4, Chromecast, etc.. Probably aren't as concerned about audio as Emotiva is. Let the AVR/Proc decode that signal via bitstream. No problem - I don't consider it conflict at all . I know you feel that is the case - but I haven't carried out a true A-B comparison. However I have watched several titles in LPCM from the ATV4K and the same via a Zidoo Z9S (as bitsreamed) and IMO there is no difference in presentation. Nor do I believe there should be. TrueHD, DTS HD-MA and other codecs are zipped up, similar to WinRAR files - though I'm sure you don't need me to explain that. All that is happening is the "unzipping" is happening in another place (not sure the processor would have any more advanced ways to do that than any of the devices mentioned). I'm not convinced that having the decode carried out prior to the RMC-1 makes any difference. As KeithL has posted in the past, these files started as LPCM before conversion to either of the proprietary brandings, therefore all that's happening is they are being decoded back to that state, for playback. In the interests of clarity I am discussing rips of disc media, not streaming services. I've actually been reading a bit on this today because I know I've heard a difference in the past. I have read others experiencing the same. I think I agree with you that, in an ideal scenario, there should be no difference. I think what I have experienced in the past is having an AVR that possibly provided additional processing to the bitstreamed codec that I "liked better" Or.. The particular AVR just had a crappy implementation of DACs and PCM just sounded worse because of it. I'm not sure. All in all, it does appear that the intention is that both should sound the same. I do prefer to allow the processor to do all that work though. This is one of those topics where things are supposed to be one way in theory, but aren't always implemented the same.
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Post by sahmen on Apr 5, 2020 12:48:47 GMT -5
Okay to those using the ATV4K with an Oppo UHD player via the Oppo's HDMI input, what are the advantages of this approach? Is the Oppo able to bitstream to the XMC-2, signals that it has received from the ATV4K in PCM format? If not, what is the best way to configure the audio (and video) through the Oppo's interface trajectory to get the best results from the ATV4k?
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Post by AudioHTIT on Apr 5, 2020 13:44:49 GMT -5
Okay to those using the ATV4K with an Oppo UHD player via the Oppo's HDMI input, what are the advantages of this approach? Is the Oppo able to bitstream to the XMC-2, signals that it has received from the ATV4K in PCM format? If not, what is the best way to configure the audio (and video) through the Oppo's interface trajectory to get the best results from the ATV4k? The only advantage I can see (and the only time I’ve hooked it up that way) is to see the signal info the Oppo provides, mostly for educational or debug purposes. As stated above, you can’t pass Atmos through the Oppo’s HDMI input, so it’s a non-starter for me, but maybe someone else has a good reason not to hook the ATV4K directly to the XMC-2.
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Post by sahmen on Apr 5, 2020 13:54:21 GMT -5
Okay to those using the ATV4K with an Oppo UHD player via the Oppo's HDMI input, what are the advantages of this approach? Is the Oppo able to bitstream to the XMC-2, signals that it has received from the ATV4K in PCM format? If not, what is the best way to configure the audio (and video) through the Oppo's interface trajectory to get the best results from the ATV4k? The only advantage I can see (and the only time I’ve hooked it up that way) is to see the signal info the Oppo provides, mostly for educational or debug purposes. As stated above, you can’t pass Atmos through the Oppo’s HDMI input, so it’s a non-starter for me, but maybe someone else has a good reason not to hook the ATV4K directly to the XMC-2. Thanks, AudioHTIT : I'd definitely want to pass atmos from ATV4K to the XMC-2, so maybe it's best for me to steer clear of this approach too. I did find this video, which seems to address the benefit of this approach, specifically for people who use projectors. I'm personally not using a projector yet, but this might be useful for someone here who does. By the way, he also discusses a workaround for getting Atmos from the ATV4K this way, but it does not seem too practical or convenient for my purposes, at least not at first sight, unless I would be willing to consider playing all video content processed by the XMC-2 through the OPPO, which sounds a little convoluted, as a way to hook things up, but it might work for some. I wonder whether anyone approaches things this way, and whether playing video from XMC-2 to Oppo rather than vice versa is a great idea.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 5, 2020 15:28:51 GMT -5
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Post by rochesterboy on Apr 5, 2020 16:47:02 GMT -5
The only advantage I can see (and the only time I’ve hooked it up that way) is to see the signal info the Oppo provides, mostly for educational or debug purposes. As stated above, you can’t pass Atmos through the Oppo’s HDMI input, so it’s a non-starter for me, but maybe someone else has a good reason not to hook the ATV4K directly to the XMC-2. Thanks, AudioHTIT : I'd definitely want to pass atmos from ATV4K to the XMC-2, so maybe it's best for me to steer clear of this approach too. I did find this video, which seems to address the benefit of this approach, specifically for people who use projectors. I'm personally not using a projector yet, but this might be useful for someone here who does. By the way, he also discusses a workaround for getting Atmos from the ATV4K this way, but it does not seem too practical or convenient for my purposes, at least not at first sight, unless I would be willing to consider playing all video content processed by the XMC-2 through the OPPO, which sounds a little convoluted, as a way to hook things up, but it might work for some. I wonder whether anyone approaches things this way, and whether playing video from XMC-2 to Oppo rather than vice versa is a great idea. I really like this idea. With this: 1. Apple TV 4K HDMI 1 in to XMC-2. 2. XMC-2 HDMI 2 out to Oppo HDMI IN 3. OPPO 205 HDMI out Epson 5040UB projector. 4. OPPO 205 HDMI out (audio only) to XMC-2 HDMI 2 in. This setup will allow me to play UHD Disc from Oppo to projector for video and XMC-2 to audio. It will allow me to play streaming contents from Apple with ATMOS. I am only skeptical due to input switch issues with XMC-2. I will try it today. Thank you.
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Post by sahmen on Apr 5, 2020 17:05:20 GMT -5
Thanks, AudioHTIT : I'd definitely want to pass atmos from ATV4K to the XMC-2, so maybe it's best for me to steer clear of this approach too. I did find this video, which seems to address the benefit of this approach, specifically for people who use projectors. I'm personally not using a projector yet, but this might be useful for someone here who does. By the way, he also discusses a workaround for getting Atmos from the ATV4K this way, but it does not seem too practical or convenient for my purposes, at least not at first sight, unless I would be willing to consider playing all video content processed by the XMC-2 through the OPPO, which sounds a little convoluted, as a way to hook things up, but it might work for some. I wonder whether anyone approaches things this way, and whether playing video from XMC-2 to Oppo rather than vice versa is a great idea. I really like this idea. With this: 1. Apple TV 4K HDMI 1 in to XMC-2. 2. XMC-2 HDMI 2 out to Oppo HDMI IN 3. OPPO 205 HDMI out Epson 5040UB projector. 4. OPPO 205 HDMI out (audio only) to XMC-2 HDMI 2 in. This setup will allow me to play UHD Disc from Oppo to projector for video and XMC-2 to audio. It will allow me to play streaming contents from Apple with ATMOS. I am only skeptical due to input switch issues with XMC-2. I will try it today. Thank you. Great. I would like to know how it works out for you. Thanks for trying it out.
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Post by cwt on Apr 6, 2020 1:01:23 GMT -5
I've actually been reading a bit on this today because I know I've heard a difference in the past. I have read others experiencing the same. I think I agree with you that, in an ideal scenario, there should be no difference. I do prefer to allow the processor to do all that work though. This is one of those topics where things are supposed to be one way in theory, but aren't always implemented the same. Just theoretically the advantage of bitstreaming to the XMC2 is jitter - you may just have good hearing Bitstreams are compressed ; lpcm is uncompressed . Being compressed means they have less jitter [being packetized helps with timing] than decoded lpcm . This is a consequence of where the clock timing is done . HDMI usually has a lot of jitter with lpcm due to the clock being tied to the sources video clock -not the best idea [as Keith has explained before] but a bitstream is tied to the avr' pre pro clock circuitry.. And with the XMC2 it doesnt get any better with asrc to drop jitter between the dsp decoder and the 2nd dsp But on the other hand its relative for the XMC2- All things being equal less jitter hitting the dacs is good enough to decode downstream to me as well
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lancity
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Posts: 169
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Post by lancity on Apr 6, 2020 11:22:49 GMT -5
Hi all...
Quick question - I recently made some changes to my HTPC - going from an NVIDIA 1650 Super GPU to an integrated GPU in the Ryzen 3 3200G cpu...
I've found the XMC-2 to be, at best, finnicky trying to handshake and hold a signal from the 3200G since making this change. What seems to sometimes work is turning on the HTPC, then turning on the XMC-2, switching to the correct input (if it isn't already on it), turning off the XMC-2, turning it back on, then logging in to the HTPC.
Despite this pain in the neck, I will on occasion lose the signal and everything goes to black. I've isolated the XMC-2 as the issue (I think) as when I go direct (over HDMI) to my projector, I set up and maintain a stable signal every time.
Is there a setting or something within the XMC-2 that I should change on this input to make things a little more workable? I am running the latest firmware for the XMC-2.
Thank you for any thoughts.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 6, 2020 12:15:19 GMT -5
Hi all... Quick question - I recently made some changes to my HTPC - going from an NVIDIA 1650 Super GPU to an integrated GPU in the Ryzen 3 3200G cpu... I've found the XMC-2 to be, at best, finnicky trying to handshake and hold a signal from the 3200G since making this change. What seems to sometimes work is turning on the HTPC, then turning on the XMC-2, switching to the correct input (if it isn't already on it), turning off the XMC-2, turning it back on, then logging in to the HTPC. Despite this pain in the neck, I will on occasion lose the signal and everything goes to black. I've isolated the XMC-2 as the issue (I think) as when I go direct (over HDMI) to my projector, I set up and maintain a stable signal every time. Is there a setting or something within the XMC-2 that I should change on this input to make things a little more workable? I am running the latest firmware for the XMC-2. Thank you for any thoughts. I had similar issues with my RX480... A new 8k cable resolved that.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Apr 6, 2020 21:46:25 GMT -5
Does Emotiva have any control over the volume level of the DTS Neural X? It’s too low.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 6, 2020 22:05:35 GMT -5
Does Emotiva have any control over the volume level of the DTS Neural X? It’s too low. I'm currently doing some testing with test tones encoded in different formats because I'm chasing something myself. I that something seems strange with DTS. I'm not sure it is neural X. I don't think that is a codec, but simply an algorithm to upmix all non immersive DTS codecs. Something seems to missing on some up these upmixes, but I haven't put my finger on it yet. Right now I'm trying to figure out why Dolby Atmos and DTS:X test tones behave differently.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,937
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Post by KeithL on Apr 6, 2020 23:44:15 GMT -5
Dolby Atmos and DTS-X are CODECs. They are deterministic. (The encoder and decoder act as a matching pair.)
DTS Neural-X and the Dolby Surround Upmixer are "upmixers". They determine where to position sounds based on their analysis of the original incoming signal.
In theory they are very different things - but, in practice, there can be some degree of overlap. With Neural-X and the DSU there is in general no encoder... and the upmixer "simply figures out where it believes sounds should be positioned." The overlap occurs because the algorithms that are used to decide where to place sounds are based on known parameters - like the phase between signals. Therefore, if there is no encoder, where sounds are positioned depends on how the decoder interprets the original signal. However, if you choose to do so, you can apply a sort of encoding to the original, and to a degree control how they will be decoded. (But, in the end, you can never know how much of what the decoder does is controlled by your encoder, and how much by the original signal itself.)
The same generalization was true for old style SQ4 "matrix four channel" signals.
The decoder could be used to reproduce actual encoded signals - and would approximately reproduce the original signal. However, if applied to an unencoded signal, the decoder would produce a pleasant simulation of decoding an encoded signal.
What is interesting is that, because almost all such algorithms depend pn phase relationships, they react quite differently to different content. Live recorded music tends to contain lots of complex phase relationships - which the decoder leverages to produce interesting directional effects. However, music with little "ambience information" tends to give the upmixer less to work with, and so tends to produce a less complex upmix.
(The decoder treats "phase relationships" as "encoded information" - whether it is really encoded, a result of natural acoustics, or merely random.)
Does Emotiva have any control over the volume level of the DTS Neural X? It’s too low. I'm currently doing some testing with test tones encoded in different formats because I'm chasing something myself. I that something seems strange with DTS. I'm not sure it is neural X. I don't think that is a codec, but simply an algorithm to upmix all non immersive DTS codecs. Something seems to missing on some up these upmixes, but I haven't put my finger on it yet. Right now I'm trying to figure out why Dolby Atmos and DTS:X test tones behave differently.
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Post by alhull on Apr 7, 2020 0:07:53 GMT -5
My XMC-2 is running the latest firmware, v1.9. I'm having consistent problems with the XMC-2 failing to recognize two of my HDMI inputs when switching inputs.
HDMI 1 is my Dish satellite box and works fine.
HDMI 2 is my Samsung 4K Blu-ray player. When I turn the player on, and switch input to 2, my LG OLED tv just shows "no connection found". It should be showing the player's default menu. If I make the player open and close the disk tray and start reading a movie, then the XMC-2 recognizes it and the TV flashes some HDR messages. Once the movie starts, I just stop it and then the player menu continues to work for Netflix, Amazon, etc.
HDMI 3 is a Sony 3D Blu-ray player. haven't tried that yet.
HDMI 4 is my 4K Roku box. The XMC-2 will not see any incoming signal unless I kill the Roku power, force it to reboot, and try again. That still usually fails, forcing me to hard reboot the XMC-2. Once it is back up, it's still a crap-shoot whether it will recognize the device. When it does finally connect after multiple input switches, reboots, and just letting it sit there showing No Connection found, sometimes it will eventually wake up after a LONG DELAY (15+ minutes). The Roku connection is my biggest headache. I need it for accessing my Disney+, Hulu, Curiosity Stream services, etc.
In contrast, my old XMC-1 never had this level of issues seeing input signals. HELP!
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Post by megash0n on Apr 7, 2020 7:53:46 GMT -5
Dolby Atmos and DTS-X are CODECs. They are deterministic. (The encoder and decoder act as a matching pair.)
DTS Neural-X and the Dolby Surround Upmixer are "upmixers". They determine where to position sounds based on their analysis of the original incoming signal.
In theory they are very different things - but, in practice, there can be some degree of overlap. With Neural-X and the DSU there is in general no encoder... and the upmixer "simply figures out where it believes sounds should be positioned." The overlap occurs because the algorithms that are used to decide where to place sounds are based on known parameters - like the phase between signals. Therefore, if there is no encoder, where sounds are positioned depends on how the decoder interprets the original signal. However, if you choose to do so, you can apply a sort of encoding to the original, and to a degree control how they will be decoded. (But, in the end, you can never know how much of what the decoder does is controlled by your encoder, and how much by the original signal itself.)
The same generalization was true for old style SQ4 "matrix four channel" signals.
The decoder could be used to reproduce actual encoded signals - and would approximately reproduce the original signal. However, if applied to an unencoded signal, the decoder would produce a pleasant simulation of decoding an encoded signal.
What is interesting is that, because almost all such algorithms depend pn phase relationships, they react quite differently to different content. Live recorded music tends to contain lots of complex phase relationships - which the decoder leverages to produce interesting directional effects. However, music with little "ambience information" tends to give the upmixer less to work with, and so tends to produce a less complex upmix.
(The decoder treats "phase relationships" as "encoded information" - whether it is really encoded, a result of natural acoustics, or merely random.)
I'm currently doing some testing with test tones encoded in different formats because I'm chasing something myself. I that something seems strange with DTS. I'm not sure it is neural X. I don't think that is a codec, but simply an algorithm to upmix all non immersive DTS codecs. Something seems to missing on some up these upmixes, but I haven't put my finger on it yet. Right now I'm trying to figure out why Dolby Atmos and DTS:X test tones behave differently. In all of this lengthy response, you avoided altogether the purpose of both of our responses. We are experiencing something that is absolutely not right. Could you please spend equal time working with your team to understand why we experience these issues please? Do you guys not experience all the things we point out in the lab? Would it be too difficult to communicate that you, or someone on the team, performed a specific test and had a specific result to satisfy these issues we are seeing? There are countless issues that I perceive as "blown off" and avoided with a consistent "it's not out fault" immediate approach. There could be several reasons things don't work. It could be a setup issue, another consumer product, Emotiva gear, etc.. But, it takes a mountain of people and complaint, over a significant period of time, to get any attention to it. One example I am trying to "learn" is that Atmos and DTS:X have picky height configurations. One that makes Atmos happy makes DTS:X not so much. I think this is what is causing a lot of the mixing or "bleeding over" into other channels. This could have nothing to do with your implementation, or it could. That isn't the point. Not having it documented on how to best set this up causes numerous people to complain over time and insist that it is your processor. It's exactly what I think, but I am also trying to put forth effort to prove myself wrong instead of "knowing" it is your problem.
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Post by scrawner on Apr 7, 2020 17:03:26 GMT -5
My XMC-2 is running the latest firmware, v1.9. I'm having consistent problems with the XMC-2 failing to recognize two of my HDMI inputs when switching inputs. HDMI 1 is my Dish satellite box and works fine. HDMI 2 is my Samsung 4K Blu-ray player. When I turn the player on, and switch input to 2, my LG OLED tv just shows "no connection found". It should be showing the player's default menu. If I make the player open and close the disk tray and start reading a movie, then the XMC-2 recognizes it and the TV flashes some HDR messages. Once the movie starts, I just stop it and then the player menu continues to work for Netflix, Amazon, etc. HDMI 3 is a Sony 3D Blu-ray player. haven't tried that yet. HDMI 4 is my 4K Roku box. The XMC-2 will not see any incoming signal unless I kill the Roku power, force it to reboot, and try again. That still usually fails, forcing me to hard reboot the XMC-2. Once it is back up, it's still a crap-shoot whether it will recognize the device. When it does finally connect after multiple input switches, reboots, and just letting it sit there showing No Connection found, sometimes it will eventually wake up after a LONG DELAY (15+ minutes). The Roku connection is my biggest headache. I need it for accessing my Disney+, Hulu, Curiosity Stream services, etc. In contrast, my old XMC-1 never had this level of issues seeing input signals. HELP! Fwiw - I'm new to this processor but have also experienced some intermittent issues with HDMI syncing; one thing I'm experimenting with now but seems to oddly make a difference is which HDMI output I'm using -- switching from output 1 to output 2 (which is the one with ARC/CEC enabled) seems to noticeably reduce the number of no-signal issues, at least in my case.
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Post by alhull on Apr 7, 2020 18:35:07 GMT -5
My XMC-2 is running the latest firmware, v1.9. I'm having consistent problems with the XMC-2 failing to recognize two of my HDMI inputs when switching inputs. HDMI 1 is my Dish satellite box and works fine. HDMI 2 is my Samsung 4K Blu-ray player. When I turn the player on, and switch input to 2, my LG OLED tv just shows "no connection found". It should be showing the player's default menu. If I make the player open and close the disk tray and start reading a movie, then the XMC-2 recognizes it and the TV flashes some HDR messages. Once the movie starts, I just stop it and then the player menu continues to work for Netflix, Amazon, etc. HDMI 3 is a Sony 3D Blu-ray player. haven't tried that yet. HDMI 4 is my 4K Roku box. The XMC-2 will not see any incoming signal unless I kill the Roku power, force it to reboot, and try again. That still usually fails, forcing me to hard reboot the XMC-2. Once it is back up, it's still a crap-shoot whether it will recognize the device. When it does finally connect after multiple input switches, reboots, and just letting it sit there showing No Connection found, sometimes it will eventually wake up after a LONG DELAY (15+ minutes). The Roku connection is my biggest headache. I need it for accessing my Disney+, Hulu, Curiosity Stream services, etc. In contrast, my old XMC-1 never had this level of issues seeing input signals. HELP! Fwiw - I'm new to this processor but have also experienced some intermittent issues with HDMI syncing; one thing I'm experimenting with now but seems to oddly make a difference is which HDMI output I'm using -- switching from output 1 to output 2 (which is the one with ARC/CEC enabled) seems to noticeably reduce the number of no-signal issues, at least in my case. I am currently using only HDMI output 1 going to my OLED TV. I do not have ARC/CEC enabled on anything as far as I know. Where do you check that? Are you saying that by using output 2 instead of 1, you're seeing less connection issues? This stuff is all getting ridiculously complex nowadays.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Apr 7, 2020 18:39:53 GMT -5
Fwiw - I'm new to this processor but have also experienced some intermittent issues with HDMI syncing; one thing I'm experimenting with now but seems to oddly make a difference is which HDMI output I'm using -- switching from output 1 to output 2 (which is the one with ARC/CEC enabled) seems to noticeably reduce the number of no-signal issues, at least in my case. I am currently using only HDMI output 1 going to my OLED TV. I do not have ARC/CEC enabled on anything as far as I know. Where do you check that? Are you saying that by using output 2 instead of 1, you're seeing less connection issues? This stuff is all getting ridiculously complex nowadays. HDMI Out 2 is considered the 'Primary' output, even if you're not using ARC (which is a good thing). I would suggest using it as well.
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Post by napsterau on Apr 7, 2020 19:32:08 GMT -5
Does Emotiva have any control over the volume level of the DTS Neural X? It’s too low. It could do with a bump. I find my self switching to dolby surround to fix this as i leave my volume at -16. it's definitely too soft vs dolby so it would be nice if the volume could be matched. Anyone here running a Panasonic AE8000 projector got the HDMI CEC working? The projector does not put the XMC-2 into standby. Another thing is do we have a remote control app for windows 10 or access to the API?
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