|
|
Post by tomincle on Sept 15, 2019 10:52:05 GMT -5
Iv'e been researching the new XPA HC1 mono blocs and the XPA2 gen 3, I notice both units share the same power supply board and amplifier board.
The only difference I see is the mono blocs just offer a separate chassis and case and they do not have to share the one power supply as the XPA 2 does.
The current XPA2 is rated at 300 watts @8 ohms and 490 watts @4 ohms, The HC1 is rated at the same 300 watts but increases to 600 watts @4ohms.
My question is this power and overall sound really going to be noticeable going into my Airmotiv T2 and nominal listening levels?
I currently run an XPA2 G2 and my second question is any of this going to be a real upgrade to what I have now?
Would I be better off just getting a set of XPA-1 G2? I used to own the XPA1 G1 but ran them on ADS L1590/2 so I really do not have
a reference of what improvement they would offer on the T2.
Taking advantage of the Stupid Question Zone and curious to read some comments with members with more expertise than myself.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Sept 15, 2019 16:21:15 GMT -5
My 20 cents, my view is that it it would be a waste of time and money unless you take advantage of the mono block configuration and locate the HC1’s right next to their respective speaker. Long balanced interconnects and short, very short, speaker cables. XPA-2’s (Gen 1 and Gen 2) are great stereo amps, that have been favourably compared for many years in many reviews, and today still kick *bleep*. Any gain from going to another stereo amp is going to be next to insignificant.
Cheers
Gary
|
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Sept 15, 2019 17:41:47 GMT -5
I have listened to the XPA-2 gen 3 which uses the same modules as these. I find the XPA-2 gen 2 to sound quite a bit better in tone. We compared the XPA-2 gen 3 to the Basx A-300 and me and a friend both preferred the A-300. And of course I thought the XPA-2 gen 2 sounded better to all of them.
You've already got it right. I currently have the XPA-1 gen 2. I think it's the best sounding of the bunch. However the difference between the XPA-2 gen 2 and the XPA-1 gen 2 is subtle so depending on your preferences and setup you may not notice a difference.
|
|
|
|
Post by davidl81 on Sept 15, 2019 18:10:12 GMT -5
Just stick with your XPA-2 Gen 2. You won’t hear any difference with any of these amps you have listed here.
|
|
|
|
Post by tomincle on Sept 16, 2019 7:13:06 GMT -5
I have listened to the XPA-2 gen 3 which uses the same modules as these. I find the XPA-2 gen 2 to sound quite a bit better in tone. We compared the XPA-2 gen 3 to the Basx A-300 and me and a friend both preferred the A-300. And of course I thought the XPA-2 gen 2 sounded better to all of them. You've already got it right. I currently have the XPA-1 gen 2. I think it's the best sounding of the bunch. However the difference between the XPA-2 gen 2 and the XPA-1 gen 2 is subtle so depending on your preferences and setup you may not notice a difference. The one thing that always had me concerned about the Gen 3 was the new modular design, It's a lot of amp on such a small board. For Emotiva it was a great way for them to produce and bring assembling back to our shores but for the consumer, I was not sure this was the best move other than upgrading down the road. |
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Sept 16, 2019 10:47:30 GMT -5
I have listened to the XPA-2 gen 3 which uses the same modules as these. I find the XPA-2 gen 2 to sound quite a bit better in tone. We compared the XPA-2 gen 3 to the Basx A-300 and me and a friend both preferred the A-300. And of course I thought the XPA-2 gen 2 sounded better to all of them. You've already got it right. I currently have the XPA-1 gen 2. I think it's the best sounding of the bunch. However the difference between the XPA-2 gen 2 and the XPA-1 gen 2 is subtle so depending on your preferences and setup you may not notice a difference. The one thing that always had me concerned about the Gen 3 was the new modular design, It's a lot of amp on such a small board. For Emotiva it was a great way for them to produce and bring assembling back to our shores but for the consumer, I was not sure this was the best move other than upgrading down the road. For me it eventually comes down to the sound. That's why I extoll the sound quality of the diminutive Emotiva PA-1 amps. But having said that, I love the hefty build quality of the gen 1 and gen 2 amps. If you look at a gen 2 XPA-1 or XPA-2 amp you will see that every bit of space is taken up. If you look at a gen 3 XPA-2 amp you'll see lots of unused space. That's the reason why they were able to make the HC1 - because there was less stuff in there. In this you have One power supply  The size of that transformer is about the size of two quarters I believe. Coupled to one of these  And that's more or less it. Here's the power supply of the XPA-1 gen 1/2  Here's the interior  Clearly there's a difference in heftiness. Though heftiness doesn't necessarily translate to build quality. At the end of the day sound quality is what matters. |
|
|
|
Post by tomincle on Sept 17, 2019 8:31:49 GMT -5
I totally get it about the sound aspect and fully embrace the PA-1 and welcome future audiophile quality Class D amps. When we are talking about massive 300-500 Class A-B design it seems
Emotiva tried to reengineer the way these amps are produced with miniaturization, It reminds me of when the major Japanese brands in the very early '80s went from hand-built boards and chassis to machine dipped soldered boards and much lighter weight designs but with the same "150" watts per channel. Heat buildup was a killer in some of those new designs back then and can't help but think the same
when I see electronic components almost stacked on top of each other on a relatively small board.
|
|
|
|
Post by davidl81 on Sept 17, 2019 9:26:49 GMT -5
I totally get it about the sound aspect and fully embrace the PA-1 and welcome future audiophile quality Class D amps. When we are talking about massive 300-500 Class A-B design it seems Emotiva tried to reengineer the way these amps are produced with miniaturization, It reminds me of when the major Japanese brands in the very early '80s went from hand-built boards and chassis to machine dipped soldered boards and much lighter weight designs but with the same "150" watts per channel. Heat buildup was a killer in some of those new designs back then and can't help but think the same when I see electronic components almost stacked on top of each other on a relatively small board. FWIW I find my DR-2 runs cooler than my XPA-2 Gen 2 did. I also find that my XPA-9 is cooler than my XPA-5 G2 was. By the same token I would say none of these amps ran anywhere near hot though. |
|
|
|
Post by vcautokid on Sept 17, 2019 11:00:54 GMT -5
The XPA-2 Gen 2 is a powerful traditional amplifier that takes it to the top and back. The other amplifiers are a newer way of doing business. Which is better? Depends what you want.
These are rare times where you can have both or either. Amplifiers to a point aren't going to be night and day anymore. Nuances and other logistic considerations come into play. The 100 watt difference most likely will be insignificant as the rule doubling your power etc. etc. is in play too. If you wanted to try the Gen 3 and HC-1, can't see any harm in that. Worse case is you send them back. Or you end up liking them for reasons unique to you and your sensibilities and no one else's here. I throw in my buck raise the .20 cents. The XPA-2 gen1 or 2 was a dynamite amplifier, and if you think these gen 3 or HC-1 is an aha moment, don't think that is going to happen. But I don't know what you are looking for. To be honest most who ask would there be a difference frequently deep down inside aren't so sure either.
Is that bad? Nope. Just honest that's all. We chase our tails sometimes in vain of the word "better". Most abused word in audiodum. Me? I would enjoy the XPA-2 I have, go out to a few nice dinners with someone you care about,and then share the music with them from your system. Yeah a bit of a romantic. It is true. Whatever you decide all wins as long as you get what YOU are looking for and impressing yourself and no one else.
|
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 9,928
|
Post by KeithL on Sept 17, 2019 11:58:21 GMT -5
I think you may misunderstand a few of the details here.....
For starters, you need to look at Class A/B amps and Class D amps as what they are - entirely different technology. You also need to understand that the amplifier and the power supply are entirely different things (like the engine and the transmission in your car).
Class A/B amplifiers are what we call "linear technology" (as compared to "switching technology"). They are between about 50% and 70% efficient - which means that powerful ones generate significant heat when turned up. By using multiple or variable supply rails, Class G and Class H designs are somewhat more efficient, but they still generate significant heat. This is why the amplifier modules in our XPA Gen3 amps are still big, still have big heat sinks, and still need reasonable ventilation.
The actual amplifier modules in our current XPA Gen3 are about the same size, weigh about the same, and have about the same amount of heat sinks, as the previous generation.
(When you look at models from any decades ago, many were simply inefficient, or were far heavier than they had to be, just as my old bicycle weighed a lot more than a current high-end model, but didn't actually work any better.)
The biggest difference with the new model, in terms of weight, is the power supply. Our previous models used a linear power supply which included a 60 Hz power transformer.
This sort of power supply is actually reasonably simple, reasonably efficient, and quite reliable. The only real limitation is that it runs directly from the 60 Hz power coming from a wall outlet. And, in order to do that, and deliver enough power to run a big XPA amp, it must include a big, heavy, expensive power transformer, and big filter capacitors.
The new model uses a SMPS (a "switching supply"), which converts the power coming from the wall to a higher frequency early on in the process. This allows it to deliver superior performance, using a much smaller transformer, and much smaller filter capacitors. It doesn't "have more heat to get rid of in a smaller space" because it simply doesn't make much heat.
(In all fairness the old type didn't make all that much heat either - it's main drawback was weight.)
Now, Class D AMPLIFIERS, like the PA-1, are completely different.
The PA-1 actually includes both a SMPS power supply and a Class D amplifier (they're really two separate parts - although they fit on the same board). And, yes, although the details are rather different, the SMPS in the PA-1 operates on the same principles as the one in the XPA Gen3.
However, a Class D amplifier uses entirely different technology than a Class A/B amplifier. (Comparing them is like comparing carving a statue out of stone to casting one out of cement - or comparing an electric motor to a gasoline engine.)
The PA-1 doesn't have to worry about "getting rid of more heat in a smaller space" simply because it avoids making heat in the first place. FORGET ABOUT heat buildup on a PA-1..... it hardly gets even warm..... and never gets hot. (The PA-1 actually usually runs cooler than our DC-1 DAC.)
It would be fair to apply the term "miniaturization" to the PA-1... because the circuitry that makes the PA-1 possible does in fact pack a lot of small parts into some small spaces. However, and more important in the context of your concerns, it simply doesn't produce much waste heat, so it runs quite cool.
(Even the tiny row of vents on the top of the PA-1 is probably overkill... it really does run that cool.)
I totally get it about the sound aspect and fully embrace the PA-1 and welcome future audiophile quality Class D amps. When we are talking about massive 300-500 Class A-B design it seems Emotiva tried to reengineer the way these amps are produced with miniaturization, It reminds me of when the major Japanese brands in the very early '80s went from hand-built boards and chassis to machine dipped soldered boards and much lighter weight designs but with the same "150" watts per channel. Heat buildup was a killer in some of those new designs back then and can't help but think the same when I see electronic components almost stacked on top of each other on a relatively small board. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,928
|
Post by KeithL on Sept 17, 2019 12:04:16 GMT -5
I find it interesting that so many people seem to look at it that way (the size).
The actual amplifier modules in the XPA Gen3 are very similar to the amplifier modules we used in previous models. They are about the same size, weigh about the same, and have very similar heat sinks. (They are now Class H, which adds a few more parts, and makes them slightly more efficient, so they are technically closer to a channel in the XPR amps.)
The big difference, in terms of weight, is the new SMPS.... which avoids the big heavy power transformer. (The new power supply is also regulated, which is sort of a big step up in technical terms, even though you may not hear a huge difference.)
I have listened to the XPA-2 gen 3 which uses the same modules as these. I find the XPA-2 gen 2 to sound quite a bit better in tone. We compared the XPA-2 gen 3 to the Basx A-300 and me and a friend both preferred the A-300. And of course I thought the XPA-2 gen 2 sounded better to all of them. You've already got it right. I currently have the XPA-1 gen 2. I think it's the best sounding of the bunch. However the difference between the XPA-2 gen 2 and the XPA-1 gen 2 is subtle so depending on your preferences and setup you may not notice a difference. The one thing that always had me concerned about the Gen 3 was the new modular design, It's a lot of amp on such a small board. For Emotiva it was a great way for them to produce and bring assembling back to our shores but for the consumer, I was not sure this was the best move other than upgrading down the road. |
|
|
|
Post by vcautokid on Sept 17, 2019 16:05:45 GMT -5
Guys and Gals, the take away here is we have to be smart how we are doing business. Everything has to be more efficient especially muti-channel. If I was doing it all over again now, 5 PA-1s the T2 and C2 and surrounds don't care and my current subwoofer. Done!
It is a no brainer. Bi-amp the T2s get 4 PA-1s. Now lets not get this sideways here. Notice the like dance is not played here. It is just one option. Linear Supply amplifiers are going nowhere. SMPS is brilliant as long as you get what you are driving. They are only going to more and better down the road. Even Emotiva I am sure is doing another gen. SMPS and class D is going nowhere either. Also you have wrap around your head does that SMPS really bother you that much. As much as I love my XPA-2, if I was in a double blind with the current Gen3 amps, I would probably embarrass myself guessing which is which. Or maybe not. But in any case I think it is smart Emotiva is pushing efficiency and intelligent design. Tradition is still here all around you, so you got that too. Me? I am happy where I am at. But if you are starting out small, the PA-1 is the spoiler here. Even bigger yet a whole bunch of them in multi-channel. You got to dig how small they are and are cool runners. Custom installation has a new friend!
|
|
|
|
Post by creimes on Sept 17, 2019 16:23:41 GMT -5
I totally get it about the sound aspect and fully embrace the PA-1 and welcome future audiophile quality Class D amps. When we are talking about massive 300-500 Class A-B design it seems Emotiva tried to reengineer the way these amps are produced with miniaturization, It reminds me of when the major Japanese brands in the very early '80s went from hand-built boards and chassis to machine dipped soldered boards and much lighter weight designs but with the same "150" watts per channel. Heat buildup was a killer in some of those new designs back then and can't help but think the same when I see electronic components almost stacked on top of each other on a relatively small board. I haven't done head to head comparisons of the PA-1 amps i purchased last week to my UPA-1's but I have zero complaints on the PA-1, it is really good and it weighs 3 pounds which is really nice, I have the PA-1's powering my T1 and I'm really happy so far and not that the UPA-1's have an issue or sound bad but a 3lb amp compared to a 27lb amp is sure nice haha. Have you considered trying the PA-1, don't be fooled by it being class d and not weighing as much as the other amps. Chad |
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Sept 18, 2019 1:48:14 GMT -5
I've seen 4 SMSP's die in Emotiva gear (not power amps), 2 of mine, 1 in a friends and another in a local guy's that I helped out. No one I know has ever had an Emotiva linear power supply die and personally I've had 8 Emotiva power amplifiers. A good power amplifier today is a good power amplifier for decades, they don't go "out of date". So please excuse me if I choose to stick with power amplifiers with linear power supplies.
FWIW I don't give rats about how much a power amp weighs, it goes in the rack and it stays there, for years.
Cheers
Gary
|
|
|
|
Post by pedrocols on Sept 18, 2019 9:49:55 GMT -5
Just get some glow in your life, cough cough tube amps.... 💡
|
|
novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,222 
|
Post by novisnick on Sept 18, 2019 11:43:05 GMT -5
Just get some glow in your life, cough cough tube amps.... 💡 |
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Sept 18, 2019 15:47:09 GMT -5
Just get some distortion in your life, cough cough tube amps.... 💡 Corrected for accuracy  Cheers Gary |
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Sept 18, 2019 16:16:22 GMT -5
Just get some glow in your life, cough cough tube amps.... 💡 |
|
|
|
Post by rbk123 on Sept 18, 2019 17:05:32 GMT -5
Guys and Gals, the take away here is we have to be smart how we are doing business. Everything has to be more efficient especially muti-channel. If I was doing it all over again now, 5 PA-1s the T2 and C2 and surrounds don't care and my current subwoofer. Done! It is a no brainer. Bi-amp the T2s get 4 PA-1s. Now lets not get this sideways here. Notice the like dance is not played here. It is just one option. Linear Supply amplifiers are going nowhere. SMPS is brilliant as long as you get what you are driving. They are only going to more and better down the road. Even Emotiva I am sure is doing another gen. SMPS and class D is going nowhere either. Also you have wrap around your head does that SMPS really bother you that much. As much as I love my XPA-2, if I was in a double blind with the current Gen3 amps, I would probably embarrass myself guessing which is which. Or maybe not. But in any case I think it is smart Emotiva is pushing efficiency and intelligent design. Tradition is still here all around you, so you got that too. Me? I am happy where I am at. But if you are starting out small, the PA-1 is the spoiler here. Even bigger yet a whole bunch of them in multi-channel. You got to dig how small they are and are cool runners. Custom installation has a new friend! After making it through that giant mess of incoherence, I'm going to have to ask VC to share the good stuff with the rest of us.  |
|
