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Post by goozoo on Oct 5, 2019 1:40:05 GMT -5
Something that is not being discussed here is the need for an effective GUI to control all these speaker assignments and groups. An OSD is simply not going to cut it (especially with the menu problems Emo is having with the RMC1). That said I suspect they will push out the expansion board without said interface. Has anyone heard if they actually have a functioning expansion board running on a RMC1 yet or not?
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Post by lrobertson on Oct 5, 2019 8:12:30 GMT -5
They mentioned they were restructuring some memory away from the renderer to make more room for Dirac. I took that to mean if there was a working prototype it’s going to be redesigned anyways and we’ll get Dirac first and hopefully they leave us enough for more future layout options. It sounds like at least our expansions will add some hardware horsepower but who knows if this can get combined with the main renderer. On top of it all it sounds like these decoding codecs are interwoven into the firmware from what Lonnie said with the upmix restrictions so I wouldn’t be surprised to see the expansions roll out with DTS:X Pro early next year. And that’s if they stay on schedule with the pro. I get a GUI makes it easier but as long as their menu system has what Dolby defines in their pdf install manual it should be doable I would think even if a pita. It sounds like the Pro layout will just piggy back on the chosen Atmos layout.
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Post by TDifEQ on Oct 5, 2019 13:41:21 GMT -5
Something that is not being discussed here is the need for an effective GUI to control all these speaker assignments and groups. An OSD is simply not going to cut it (especially with the menu problems Emo is having with the RMC1). That said I suspect they will push out the expansion board without said interface. Has anyone heard if they actually have a functioning expansion board running on a RMC1 yet or not? Talked to EMO earlier this week and development is NOT actively working on a beta speaker expansion module. We could actually use a Speaker Expansion Module today ... ATMOS should be able to support 11.1.8 today(?) ... our hypothesis since 9.1.6 works. It would add a lot to EMO's credibility if they would release a speaker expansion module and updated firmware to support 11.1.8 ... with the caveat that speaker management would soon follow. Be nice to test. Quite a feather in EMO's cap if they could pull this off. Dirac (w.o. bass mgt) is not as important to me as getting a Speaker Expansion Module (SEM). The RMC-1 sounds so good that Dirac is secondary to SEM. Dan said in the 9.20.19 pod cast that Dirac would be available before the holidays.
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Post by TDifEQ on Oct 5, 2019 14:22:58 GMT -5
EMO Speaker Management ... a way to manage a lot of speakers with various audio sound formats and upmixers from movies and music where RMC-1 owners don't know and would like to easily verify which speakers are getting sound. Want to verify this while sitting in the money seat and not having to go to each speaker to figure this out. klinemj : This thread should be retitled: RMC-1 Owners Advanced Topic: Speaker Expansion and Management. We need to define Spkr Mgt for RMC-1
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Post by lrobertson on Oct 5, 2019 14:40:30 GMT -5
Something that is not being discussed here is the need for an effective GUI to control all these speaker assignments and groups. An OSD is simply not going to cut it (especially with the menu problems Emo is having with the RMC1). That said I suspect they will push out the expansion board without said interface. Has anyone heard if they actually have a functioning expansion board running on a RMC1 yet or not? Talked to EMO earlier this week and development is NOT actively working on a beta speaker expansion module. We could actually use a Speaker Expansion Module today ... ATMOS should be able to support 11.1.8 today(?) ... our hypothesis since 9.1.6 works. It would add a lot to EMO's credibility if they would release a speaker expansion module and updated firmware to support 11.1.8 ... with the caveat that speaker management would soon follow. Be nice to test. Quite a feather in EMO's cap if they could pull this off. Dirac (w.o. bass mgt) is not as important to me as getting a Speaker Expansion Module (SEM). The RMC-1 sounds so good that Dirac is secondary to SEM. Dan said in the 9.20.19 pod cast that Dirac would be available before the holidays. I completely agree with the importance of the SEM over Dirac for the RMC-1 for at least me. The problem is now though that the XMC-2 and RMC-1L also run off of the same firmware so there is a bigger group waiting for what matters to them. I think we’ll see the DIRAC and stability rollout and hopefully soon after we see them focus on everything SEM. It would be cool to see a OSD that would quickly allow you to see speakers activated with format chosen that mimick their placement on the edge of a 2.4 screen for the ear level speakers so it doesn’t get cut off on projectors and two verticals rows down 1/3’s of the screen mimicking the ceiling speakers every time we switch settings. Maybe the speaker indicators or letters used change colors with whether they are set to native or a upmixed channel. One of the problems with asking to be notified of active speakers is Keith mentioned pinned 7.1.4 reads on a pre pro the same as content that can utilize 24.1.10. They are all the same Atmos format just one’s content isn’t feeding information for more speakers as it’s playing. It’s not going to know a difference. The trinnov has activity markers I think on a separate app that you’d have to pay attention to during playback like SdRucker uses. Or maybe it’s a remotely connected computer. Maybe if you can select an OSD to stay active and each speaker indicator pulse with playback that would be a quick indicator. Or maybe they could just make an app that does both GUI and this. And then just upload the settings chosen on the app but that would take network connectivity. The other side of the argument is if you can’t tell if half your speakers aren’t getting sound then does it matter? That probably just means we waisted money pushing the limits of this hobby. And if you can tell something is lacking we should just have a button to hit our preferred upmixers and see which sound we prefer. No indicators needed other than knowing what playback options we are on. SdRucker says the higher channel counts have a subtle benefit but the more he got used to it the more he doesn’t think he could go back. We should end up being able to tell when something is missing.
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Post by TDifEQ on Oct 6, 2019 9:40:46 GMT -5
Talked to EMO earlier this week and development is NOT actively working on a beta speaker expansion module. We could actually use a Speaker Expansion Module today ... ATMOS should be able to support 11.1.8 today(?) ... our hypothesis since 9.1.6 works. It would add a lot to EMO's credibility if they would release a speaker expansion module and updated firmware to support 11.1.8 ... with the caveat that speaker management would soon follow. Be nice to test. Quite a feather in EMO's cap if they could pull this off. Dirac (w.o. bass mgt) is not as important to me as getting a Speaker Expansion Module (SEM). The RMC-1 sounds so good that Dirac is secondary to SEM. Dan said in the 9.20.19 pod cast that Dirac would be available before the holidays. I completely agree with the importance of the SEM over Dirac for the RMC-1 for at least me. The problem is now though that the XMC-2 and RMC-1L also run off of the same firmware so there is a bigger group waiting for what matters to them. I think we’ll see the DIRAC and stability rollout and hopefully soon after we see them focus on everything SEM. It would be cool to see a OSD that would quickly allow you to see speakers activated with format chosen that mimick their placement on the edge of a 2.4 screen for the ear level speakers so it doesn’t get cut off on projectors and two verticals rows down 1/3’s of the screen mimicking the ceiling speakers every time we switch settings. Maybe the speaker indicators or letters used change colors with whether they are set to native or a upmixed channel. One of the problems with asking to be notified of active speakers is Keith mentioned pinned 7.1.4 reads on a pre pro the same as content that can utilize 24.1.10. They are all the same Atmos format just one’s content isn’t feeding information for more speakers as it’s playing. It’s not going to know a difference. The trinnov has activity markers I think on a separate app that you’d have to pay attention to during playback like SdRucker uses. Or maybe it’s a remotely connected computer. Maybe if you can select an OSD to stay active and each speaker indicator pulse with playback that would be a quick indicator. Or maybe they could just make an app that does both GUI and this. And then just upload the settings chosen on the app but that would take network connectivity. The other side of the argument is if you can’t tell if half your speakers aren’t getting sound then does it matter? That probably just means we waisted money pushing the limits of this hobby. And if you can tell something is lacking we should just have a button to hit our preferred upmixers and see which sound we prefer. No indicators needed other than knowing what playback options we are on. SdRucker says the higher channel counts have a subtle benefit but the more he got used to it the more he doesn’t think he could go back. We should end up being able to tell when something is missing. As a hobby, having an EMO tool to allow sound from a movie to go to only a user defined set of speakers (where the other speakers are quiet), without changing the speaker config, would help a lot in managing lots of speakers with various sound formats and upmixers. The whole idea is to pick a sound format and upmixer that sounds the best ... with the caveat that one can verify all the speakers are being engaged. If all the speakers cannot be enaged simultaneously, it's either a bug that has to be reported or one settles for less speakers for that particular movie and its sound_format/upmixer option. GUI may be very difficult to do, this would not. Having multiple upmixers is very important for large numbers of speakers. Seems like sound formats can restrict the number of speakers (from what I've read, not necessarily by design, but by the studios and the implementation of the sound format) ... where the upmixer can activate ALL speakers. Since RMC-1 was pushed first by EMO, rather than RMC-1L, one would think SEMs would be high on the priority list of things to release. We believe that an SEM can be used with current ATMOS (11.1.8) and would love to test it out; otherwise, RMC-1L should of been released first ... then we would not be anxiously awaiting SEM availability. I wish @keithl would comment on this. I get scared that EMO will not have SEM (Speaker Expansion Module) for purchase for a long time, nor have they even tested one ... like at the trade shows. Pushing the limits, as you say, is part of the hobby. If large number of speakers does not work out well, which I don't believe, then the SEM card will just collect dust ... just like all my other technologically obsolete products I've bought over the decades.
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Post by lrobertson on Oct 6, 2019 10:42:25 GMT -5
I think it was a calculated move on their part to release the system they could say publicly will be capable of 28 channels first for its price. It allowed them to get some free publicity. And the strange thing about even bad news from the difficult rollout is bad news is better than no news as far as advertisement for companies. I assume they didn’t know it would be as hard as it was to resolve the problems. I’m assuming if they did give us the SEM’s first then it would of cost them a lot more money in the long run with what’s ended up happening. It’s always cheaper to do things once. They are restructuring the memory from the renderer for Dirac so they may have had to redo it just from that. The upmix restrictions were lifted so they may have had to redo everything from that. And DTS Pro is getting released so they may have had to redo everything for that as well. So it makes sense that now that they have their ducks in a row they can hit it all at once in a specific order so they can all work together.
It was said that what a pre pro sees when it gets an Atmos signal is just the Atmos signal. It’s not going to know if the wides will get content from objects 15 minutes in in order to signal to you at the beginning of a movie that wides will indeed be used. It would be interesting to know if it always sees 128 tracks even if only 12 would be used for the whole movie. Or if that would be an indicator at the beginning of a movie to know if you mine as well engage a upmixer right off the bat. It was said that an upmixer couldn’t be automatically applied but that would be neat if it could identify somehow a fixed layout movie and automatically engage one.
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Post by Gary Cook on Oct 6, 2019 17:33:02 GMT -5
In regards to the SEM, what you guys are asking Emotiva to solve is not their problem, it is a Dolby problem, not an RMC-1 problem. It is only solvable by Dolby providing the information on the format of the Atmos audio on the disk (or in the stream) in the same way as we know whether it’s a DD 5.1 sound track, or Dolby True HD 7.1 etc. My view is the Dolby haven’t done this because they haven’t wanted to kill off the widespread belief that Atmos is an “as many channels/speakers as you want” format. That’s the way Dolby has been promoting it since day 1, which we know from personal experience was in fact not the case.
The fact is if Dolby had been providing this information then we wouldn’t need to have conversations about whether the wides are active in this movie or not. For example if the sound mixer ticks the box that says “Atmos Pinned 7.1.4” when he creates the sound track then that’s what the processor should report. Which means we won’t be left wondering if something is wrong with our system when the wides are silent.
I don’t believe it’s being fair on Emotiva asking them to engineer a solution when it should be Dolby’s obligation to provide that information in the first instance.
Cheers Gary
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Post by nospam on Oct 6, 2019 18:57:43 GMT -5
Emotiva owners need to get comfortable with a 9.1.6 limit on the RMC-1. Emotiva never delivered any expansion modules for the XMC-1. The 11.5.8 Atmos announced at CEDIA 2018 appears to be vapor. The Griffin Lite DSPs used by Emotiva simply is not designed to exceed 16 channels. While a 4-XLR expansion module should be relatively easy, supporting Dirac Live multi-sub Bass Management is another animal. Most likely there will be a 16 ch limit of speakers + subs if they add the newer DL multi-sub BM.
IMO, these deliverables are optimistic hopes for Emotiva owners… 2019: Dirac Live 2020: Dts:X Pro (9.1.6) ??: 4-XLR Subwoofer Expansion Module ??: Dirac Live multi-sub Bass Management
I would love to be wrong of course
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 7, 2019 7:27:18 GMT -5
Emotiva owners need to get comfortable with a 9.1.6 limit on the RMC-1. Emotiva never delivered any expansion modules for the XMC-1. The 11.5.8 Atmos announced at CEDIA 2018 appears to be vapor. The Griffin Lite DSPs used by Emotiva simply is not designed to exceed 16 channels. While a 4-XLR expansion module should be relatively easy, supporting Dirac Live multi-sub Bass Management is another animal. Most likely there will be a 16 ch limit of speakers + subs if they add the newer DL multi-sub BM. IMO, these deliverables are optimistic hopes for Emotiva owners… 2019: Dirac Live 2020: Dts:X Pro (9.1.6) ??: 4-XLR Subwoofer Expansion Module ??: Dirac Live multi-sub Bass Management I would love to be wrong of course If the Griffin Lite DSPs were designed for processor paralleling between chips, then you are dead wrong. Emo talked about the SEM containing another DSP (I assume a Griffin Lite chip), thus processor load sharing is implicit. Dirac is another matter. Dirac is a small European company, who has the entire industry waiting for their promises. Good luck with that one! I think anything beyond simple bass REQ is silly anyway.
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Post by nospam on Oct 7, 2019 7:33:23 GMT -5
If the Griffin Lite DSPs were designed for processor paralleling between chips, then you are dead wrong. I hope so.
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Post by lrobertson on Oct 7, 2019 8:38:09 GMT -5
“Jenthe Govaerts just logged a message to a ticket in which you participate.
Hello,
That's nice to hear. Actually in the AVR business, it is not common to have this capability as most AVR's go up to 16ch output max. It would however make sense to add "AuroMax" to AVR systems from software point of view, this should not be very complicated. If there is request from the market, this should become available sooner or later. I cannot promise it, but I guess this is just a matter of time.
Best regards, Auro-support team.“
This is the reply I got back when I emailed Auro of my interest in their release of Auromax for home theater for the larger systems being released. Hopefully at some point. Hope Emotiva at least has contacted them to rule it out or maybe this is another duck they could have in a row while preparing for the SEM’s. Seems like the perfect time to incorporate everything they can. Auromax for the RMC-1 with expansions and just Auromatic for the non expanded, XMC-2, and the RMC-1L would be plenty.
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Post by lrobertson on Oct 7, 2019 8:39:16 GMT -5
Emotiva owners need to get comfortable with a 9.1.6 limit on the RMC-1. Emotiva never delivered any expansion modules for the XMC-1. The 11.5.8 Atmos announced at CEDIA 2018 appears to be vapor. The Griffin Lite DSPs used by Emotiva simply is not designed to exceed 16 channels. While a 4-XLR expansion module should be relatively easy, supporting Dirac Live multi-sub Bass Management is another animal. Most likely there will be a 16 ch limit of speakers + subs if they add the newer DL multi-sub BM. IMO, these deliverables are optimistic hopes for Emotiva owners… 2019: Dirac Live 2020: Dts:X Pro (9.1.6) ??: 4-XLR Subwoofer Expansion Module ??: Dirac Live multi-sub Bass Management I would love to be wrong of course I hope you’re wrong too but I also hope this concern gets addressed and Emotiva responds. I’d rather know sooner than later. They have been pretty tight lipped about all this ever since Dan announced the 28 channel ability.
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Post by davidl81 on Oct 7, 2019 11:07:22 GMT -5
“Jenthe Govaerts just logged a message to a ticket in which you participate. Hello, That's nice to hear. Actually in the AVR business, it is not common to have this capability as most AVR's go up to 16ch output max. It would however make sense to add "AuroMax" to AVR systems from software point of view, this should not be very complicated. If there is request from the market, this should become available sooner or later. I cannot promise it, but I guess this is just a matter of time. Best regards, Auro-support team.“ This is the reply I got back when I emailed Auro of my interest in their release of Auromax for home theater for the larger systems being released. Hopefully at some point. Hope Emotiva at least has contacted them to rule it out or maybe this is another duck they could have in a row while preparing for the SEM’s. Seems like the perfect time to incorporate everything they can. Auromax for the RMC-1 with expansions and just Auromatic for the non expanded, XMC-2, and the RMC-1L would be plenty. Well the question is how much would the license fee be for this on the RMC-1 and is it worth It to Emotiva to add it and cut into profit margin. I don’t see them going over the $4999 MSRP, so any auro options would come off of emotivas profit. So you have to see enough extra units to offset the cost added to every RMC-1.
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Post by lrobertson on Oct 7, 2019 11:08:40 GMT -5
I wouldn’t mind seeing it as an additional charge option like Marantz did for Auro. The last podcast did make it sound like the only actual differences to the hardware inside the 3 processors for expansions besides the DAC of the XMC-2 was the additional power management for the modules in the RMC-1. This is how they can all now have the streamer internally is how I understood it. I guess if these streamers don’t eat up one of 3 spots then I’d be wrong. Seems like we are already paying a premium for higher channel development costs though. Would be nice to see it be a flat rate if there ever was the option for all 3 pre pros regardless if it was for Auromatic or Auromax being that we are buying into more with the RMC-1 with expansions already.
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Post by bblv on Oct 7, 2019 11:22:42 GMT -5
Emotiva owners need to get comfortable with a 9.1.6 limit on the RMC-1. Emotiva never delivered any expansion modules for the XMC-1. The 11.5.8 Atmos announced at CEDIA 2018 appears to be vapor. The Griffin Lite DSPs used by Emotiva simply is not designed to exceed 16 channels. While a 4-XLR expansion module should be relatively easy, supporting Dirac Live multi-sub Bass Management is another animal. Most likely there will be a 16 ch limit of speakers + subs if they add the newer DL multi-sub BM. IMO, these deliverables are optimistic hopes for Emotiva owners… 2019: Dirac Live 2020: Dts:X Pro (9.1.6) ??: 4-XLR Subwoofer Expansion Module ??: Dirac Live multi-sub Bass Management I would love to be wrong of course I hope you’re wrong too but I also hope this concern gets addressed and Emotiva responds. I’d rather know sooner than later. They have been pretty tight lipped about all this ever since Dan announced the 28 channel ability. I really hope they're able to provide a concrete update on those items around the time they release Dirac so that we can make an informed decision on whether or not to return the RMC. I'm very hopeful of them coming through, but not willing to risk the $ and potential wait time with other options coming into the market (albeit at higher prices).
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Post by davidl81 on Oct 7, 2019 11:36:47 GMT -5
I wouldn’t mind seeing it as an additional charge option like Marantz did for Auro. The last podcast did make it sound like the only actual differences to the hardware inside the 3 processors for expansions besides the DAC of the XMC-2 was the additional power management for the modules in the RMC-1. This is how they can all now have the streamer internally is how I understood it. I guess if these streamers don’t eat up one of 3 spots then I’d be wrong. Seems like we are already paying a premium for higher channel development costs though. Yeah if they go the Marantz route I would be okay with that. Let the people who really want it pay the $200 or so far it. To the other point I agree the RMC and XMC and basically the same box. I’m thinking cost wise the RMC can’t cost Emotiva more than maybe $200 to actually build so there is a lot more margin in that unit. And I agree if the expansion modules never materialize that would be a huge disappointment.
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Post by nospam on Oct 7, 2019 16:00:17 GMT -5
This thread justifies the need for 1 speaker expansion module for the RMC-1 ... current Dolby TrueHD/Dolby ATMOS supports at least 11.1.8. We need a Speaker Expansion module to verify this. We have verified 9.1.6 works and we have verified 4k DV/ATMOS movie source material exists to play both full range music (at times to enhance 3D immersion) and special effects in the width speakers in 4K DV/ATMOS John Wick 3, Parabellum. More RMC-1 owners are needed to jump aboard and test/verify RMC-1 speaker expansion. Atmos can be rendered to any subset of 24.1.10 (for the home). Currently, only the Trinnov and Dolby Cinema processors (yes, the CP850 Is deployed in home cinemas) support every possible channel layout. The supported channel layouts have been at the manufacturers discretion. However, this year Dolby required Emotiva to support both Tops and Heights designations for overheads (most other manufacturers have supported all 10 overhead locations since the beginning, 2014-2015). I read posts early this year where some were given the impression this was something new to the codec (it was only new to Emotiva). I believe Dolby is going to be a bit more stringent with requirements as channel counts increase. Here are the 24ch layouts that the StormAudio MkII models will support (early 2020): 11.5.8, 13.3.8, 15.1.8, 13.1.10
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Post by lrobertson on Oct 7, 2019 16:08:24 GMT -5
This thread justifies the need for 1 speaker expansion module for the RMC-1 ... current Dolby TrueHD/Dolby ATMOS supports at least 11.1.8. We need a Speaker Expansion module to verify this. We have verified 9.1.6 works and we have verified 4k DV/ATMOS movie source material exists to play both full range music (at times to enhance 3D immersion) and special effects in the width speakers in 4K DV/ATMOS John Wick 3, Parabellum. More RMC-1 owners are needed to jump aboard and test/verify RMC-1 speaker expansion. Atmos can be rendered to any subset of 24.1.10 (for the home). Currently, only the Trinnov and Dolby Cinema processors (yes, the CP850 Is deployed in home cinemas) support every possible channel layout. The supported channel layouts have been at the manufacturers discretion. However, this year Dolby required Emotiva to support both Tops and Heights designations for overheads (most other manufacturers have supported all 10 overhead locations since the beginning, 2014-2015). I read posts early this year where some were given the impression this was something new to the codec (it was only new to Emotiva). I believe Dolby is going to be a bit more stringent with requirements as channel counts increase. Here are the 24ch layouts that the StormAudio MkII models will support (early 2020): 11.5.8, 13.3.8, 15.1.8, 13.1.10 Do you have speaker designations for those layouts as far as what additional speakers they chose to support for either the 15 or 13 ear heights?
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Post by nospam on Oct 7, 2019 16:14:33 GMT -5
If the Griffin Lite DSPs were designed for processor paralleling between chips, then you are dead wrong. BTW, I have gone through the ADI Griffin Lite documentation a few times and haven't found anything to suggest these DSPs were designed for parallel processing/decoding (hence, my comfortability with using the term VAPOR). If you see something please point me to it. www.analog.com/en/products/landing-pages/001/adsp-sc58x-adsp-2158x-series.htmlI'm sure what you describe CAN be done. I just don't think ADI designed the chipset to do so easily. Unless ADI is going to do the development, I doubt it will be done. Emotiva took so long with the RMC-1 development that TI/MDS caught up (with their 1st-gen APM chipset no less) and surpassed (2nd gen APMs) the capabilities of Emotiva & ADI. 0395410.netsolhost.com/mds/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/APM-datasheet-2nd-Gen-Rev5.pdfFlag this post so you can quote it and tell me how wrong I am/was. 😇
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