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Post by maryal29 on Sept 24, 2019 13:30:05 GMT -5
hello, What is the percentage of movies with planes that pass over your head? that's why Auro 3D is a good option because their algorithm arrives very well to send certain sounds on the top: planes, helicopter, raven, waterfall and natural reflection etc, I lived 3 years with Auro 3D before Rmc1 by cons the music my favorite remains the Dolby PLII music which is 100 times better than DSU it's a pity that it is no longer present in the RMC-1 because I use it a lot with the XMC-1.
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Post by davidl81 on Sept 24, 2019 13:43:05 GMT -5
Well, yes, and no, and a lot is going to depend on what you listen to and your personal preferences.
The important thing to remember is that an upmixer synthesizes (makes up) information.
For example, in a war movie, with fighters flying around overhead, a "really good" Dolby Atmos mix will have each plane as a separate object - so the sound from each will come from the proper direction. Likewise, if there was a "really good" Dolby Atmos mix of a band playing, each instrument would be in its proper spot, and if the lead guitarist started dancing around the stage, the sound of his guitar would follow him. However, an upmixer does not and cannot know where those planes, or that guitarist, are supposed to be. And is sure doesn't know where to individually place each instrument in the orchestra after the engineer has merged them all into the bed channels.
So, if there are a dozen planes buzzing around overhead, but the mix engineer was lazy and only used two height tracks, all the upmixer can do is to "make the planes sort of swoosh around overhead". And, if the guitar player walks past where the right speaker is positioned, it may or may not "figure out" that he should be placed in the right width channel instead of the right main. And, if what you have is a recording of an orchestra, all you're going to end up with is a more complex jumble of instruments, rather than a more detailed rendition of instruments in their proper locations.
In some cases the results may work out very well... for example by placing objects in speakers between other speakers. Or you may find that having the orchestra spread out between more of your speakers sounds better to you.
And, in other cases, the results may be far from accurate but may still be pleasing... for example when the upmixer simply makes up extra ambience information that makes the room seem bigger. However, if you're hoping for any "serious artistic intent" from an upmixer, or for each of those dozen planes to suddenly become a separate object, then you are destined to be disappointed.
It does sound like the creators mix will be more confined to money than artistic intent so that would mean more should be on us with an upmixer to make these better rather than rest with everything given to us as is. One thing that amuses me is how differently people treat music and movies as far as sound. Two channel guys want an absolute perfect as the recording was made sound to be replicated at their speakers. They want as pure of an analog signal from source to speakers as possible. A lot of the movie guys (based on a lot of the post on these threads) just want their speakers to play all of the sounds, not really caring at all if it is 100% true to the source material. They don't care if the sound has been manipulated as long as is sounds good at the end of the day. I don't think either of these view points is bad, just the differences are neat to me. FWIW I am kinda torn on an upmixer for Atmos. I do think if anything beyond 7.1.4 is really going to take off (as much as it can) then you need a way to take those 7.1.4 signals and have it play say 11.1.8. It's like when 5.1 took off, if Dolby PL was not around to take stereo/mono signals and make it into surround sound it really would have slowed down people buy that gear. By the same token how many room as ACTUALLY hear a difference in a 7.1.4 versus a 11.1.8 sound without just putting your ear to each speaker and seeing if its making a sound or not? Sure if you have a huge theater room with four rows of seating you can hear a difference, but 99% of rooms may have three rows at most.
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 24, 2019 14:26:20 GMT -5
If you go into SETUP | SPEAKERS | LEVELS | TEST TONE on the SETUP MENU ... And then set TEST TONE to OFF (EXTERNAL) you will be able to play external audio to each speaker in turn as your "test tone".
There are a few limitations - but I think that's basically what you're looking for.
Yes, you are correct. Maybe a labelling issue. Yesterday, forced OPPO203 to lpcm (rather than bitstream) and RMC-1 first displayed pcm2.0/DD_Surround. This sounded horrible. Later on I turned OPPO power off/on, then RMC-1 read PCM7.1/DD_Surround ... this was with a 9.1.6 config (widths and 6 heights) ... sounded much better. Still testing this config to see if widths and 6 heights can have sound sent to them. Hard to tell if widths and Middle tops are getting sound because all the other speakers are loud. Need an "Speaker Check" EMO tool, similar to Speaker Leveling, that sends movie 3D audio (rather than white noise), while playing a 3D audio movie, from HDMI1 input (or whatever input) to just one speaker at a time ... this way it's easy to tell if widths or multiple height speakers are being sent sound ... without the other speakers drowning them out. Probably a lot easier to develop than a real time monitor. Setting Test Tone to Off (External) still plays all the speakers while adjusting the level of a single speaker ... all done while playing ATMOS. Hard to believe, but it is very difficult to tell when a heights speaker has sound if a near by speaker is very loud. Usually the height speakers don't have much volume to begin with per the sound format or upmixer. Pls add a "Check Speaker" feature (in the same list as "Off (External)) to turn off sound to all speakers except the speaker you are testing ... just to see if a 2k/4k movie sound format or upmixer is sending sound to a speaker ... like widths and 6 to 8 surrounds, ects. Thx.
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 24, 2019 14:42:21 GMT -5
That’s my point though. We’ve supplied avsforum threads that experimented and other users. I’ve also heard RMC-1 users state wides had activity with Atmos. I would think this would be enough to validate 9.1.6 at the very least. People are suggesting wides only get played with matrixing but this goes against what others say both from Emotiva and some higher authorities on avsforum but when these are supplied as evidence they seem to be ignored. Just finished testing RMC-1 with 9.1.6 (Fronts, Center, Widths, Side Surrounds, Rear Surrounds, Front Heights, Middle Tops, Rear Heights) using 4K Mad Max, DD_TrueHD_7.1/ATMOS, start 00:27:55 tornado scene. 1. Most amazing discovery is 9.1.6 all works on the RMC-1 ... but, 9.1.6 only works in DD_TrueHD_7.1/ATMOS! Does not work in PCM7.1/DD_Surround. Maybe DSU has a bug? LOL. 2. Confirmed DD_TrueHD_7.1/ATMOS is not limited to 7.1.4 (as I incorrectly said before) ... plays 9.1.6 just fine. 3. This also means that previous width and 6 height tests were really done in DD_TrueHD_7.1/ATMOS, not PCM5.1/DD-Surround ... so the RMC-1 display had incorrect info for some unknown reason. Recall, did not understand how sound format changed from ATMOS to PCM5.1 ... it just happened ... so this also confirms lrobertson suggestion the display was incorrect and 9.1.6 could be verified ... well consider it verified. Time to go back and re-watch all ATMOS 4k movies and listen with RMC-1 in 9.1.6 (when movie source cooperates ... i.e. movie sound format has sound active on widths and 6 heights). I'll check some 4k DTS:X movies for 9.1.6.
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Post by lrobertson on Sept 24, 2019 15:09:11 GMT -5
That’s my point though. We’ve supplied avsforum threads that experimented and other users. I’ve also heard RMC-1 users state wides had activity with Atmos. I would think this would be enough to validate 9.1.6 at the very least. People are suggesting wides only get played with matrixing but this goes against what others say both from Emotiva and some higher authorities on avsforum but when these are supplied as evidence they seem to be ignored. Just finished testing RMC-1 with 9.1.6 (Fronts, Center, Widths, Side Surrounds, Rear Surrounds, Front Heights, Middle Tops, Rear Heights) using 4K Mad Max, DD_TrueHD_7.1/ATMOS, start 00:27:55 tornado scene. 1. Most amazing discovery is 9.1.6 all works on the RMC-1 ... but, 9.1.6 only works in DD_TrueHD_7.1/ATMOS! Does not work in PCM7.1/DD_Surround. Maybe DSU has a bug? LOL. 2. Confirmed DD_TrueHD_7.1/ATMOS is not limited to 7.1.4 ... plays 9.1.6 just fine. 3. This also means that previous width and 6 height tests were really done in DD_TrueHD_7.1/ATMOS, not PCM5.1/DD-Surround ... so the RMC-1 display had incorrect info for some unknown reason. Recall, did not understand how sound format changed from ATMOS to PCM5.1 ... it just happened ... so this also confirms lrobertson suggestion the display was incorrect and 9.1.6 could be verified ... well consider it verified. Time to go back and re-watch all ATMOS 4k movies and listen with RMC-1 in 9.1.6 (when movie source cooperates ... i.e. movie sound format has sound active on widths and 6 heights). I'll check some 4k DTS:X movies for 9.1.6. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say all 20 will work on that movie with 11.1.8 and 24 would work if decoded 13.1.10 was announced.
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 24, 2019 15:27:29 GMT -5
Just finished testing RMC-1 with 9.1.6 (Fronts, Center, Widths, Side Surrounds, Rear Surrounds, Front Heights, Middle Tops, Rear Heights) using 4K Mad Max, DD_TrueHD_7.1/ATMOS, start 00:27:55 tornado scene. 1. Most amazing discovery is 9.1.6 all works on the RMC-1 ... but, 9.1.6 only works in DD_TrueHD_7.1/ATMOS! Does not work in PCM7.1/DD_Surround. Maybe DSU has a bug? LOL. 2. Confirmed DD_TrueHD_7.1/ATMOS is not limited to 7.1.4 ... plays 9.1.6 just fine. 3. This also means that previous width and 6 height tests were really done in DD_TrueHD_7.1/ATMOS, not PCM5.1/DD-Surround ... so the RMC-1 display had incorrect info for some unknown reason. Recall, did not understand how sound format changed from ATMOS to PCM5.1 ... it just happened ... so this also confirms lrobertson suggestion the display was incorrect and 9.1.6 could be verified ... well consider it verified. Time to go back and re-watch all ATMOS 4k movies and listen with RMC-1 in 9.1.6 (when movie source cooperates ... i.e. movie sound format has sound active on widths and 6 heights). I'll check some 4k DTS:X movies for 9.1.6. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say all 20 will work on that movie with 11.1.8 and 24 would work if decoded 13.1.10 was announced. "You've got to ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do you, punk?" ... Clint Eastwood ... Dirty Harry. lol. So ... balls back in EMO's court ... where's the expansion boards?
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 24, 2019 16:09:13 GMT -5
I’ve done this many times, to check if one speaker/channel is playing I simply unplug the other channels’ interconnects (between the processor and the power amp). Then play the test track, I can turn the volume up as much as I need to to hear what sound is emanating from that speaker and that speaker alone. (A good amplifier cross talk test as well.)
Using the above method via the Storm I have tried the Mad Max tornado scene and there is no sound from any speakers past 7.1.4 using Atmos. There is sound (from all 13.1.8 that I can set up at home) when the Dolby True HD sound track is upmixed using Neural X. That’s using the Australian (Zone 2) release 4K disc, maybe the Zone 1 release is different.
Not that it’s relevant, to whether Mad Max has more than 7.1.4 encoded, but when playing in the demo theatre with the full 42 channels/speaker layout they are set up in arrays. Such the the 10 sides (5 right & 5 left) play the same material, same with the 4 rears and 8 front/wides. The result is 42 active channels/speakers playing what is in effect a 7.1.4 sound track, which is not the same as 22.8.12.
Cheers Gary
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Post by lrobertson on Sept 24, 2019 16:40:50 GMT -5
Mad Max isn’t 9.1.6 is my understanding. It’s Atmos as intended. It was encoded properly so that it could be decoded as intended. The decoding support of a prepro is the limiting factor on a properly created Atmos movie. Yes I’m calling Disney improper and all those mixers and studios who don’t like to take the time to add a surplus of interactive objects to their mixes. I do believe your discs either must have a different audio version like you said or perhaps somewhere in that complex machine it all has to be redone with 9.1.6 in mind and maybe they chose to program it for 7.1.4 even though it would support more so it is busy with all Atmos even when it sees those like Disney or even 7.1. Did you do the setup to know? But I agree if I setup a 17.1.10 or 19.1.8 room and play mad max and the RMC only supports 11.1.8 decoding I’m not going to really be playing 28 channels of Atmos, just 20, and if I was using 28 speakers I’d be upmixing and like Keith mentioned there’s a good chance in many situations it would take me away from what was intended even if this is preferred by the listener. I only want to upmix the improper mixes. That’s why we should also have Emotiva supply decoding for 13.1.10 and 17.1.10 👍
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 24, 2019 18:59:30 GMT -5
Using the above method via the Storm I have tried the Mad Max tornado scene and there is no sound from any speakers past 7.1.4 using Atmos. There is sound (from all 13.1.8 that I can set up at home) when the Dolby True HD sound track is upmixed using Neural X. That’s using the Australian (Zone 2) release 4K disc, maybe the Zone 1 release is different. Cheers Gary EMO devel: Maybe EMO development has the tools to determine the difference in the 7.1.4 vs 9.1.6 findings for 4K Mad Max, DD_TrueHD_7.1/DD_Atmos. All can be reported is sound is coming from these speakers ... not what the sound director's intent was. I've notice major differences over the years in video quality and types (2D vs 3D) in 2K blu ray movies among Japanese, Hong Kong, Germany and UK Amazon stores ... so maybe there are audio differences as well. It's all director intent. lol.
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Post by lrobertson on Sept 24, 2019 20:20:51 GMT -5
Sounds like DTS:X Pro was confirmed for early 2020.
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Post by bblv on Sept 24, 2019 22:23:07 GMT -5
Sounds like DTS:X Pro was confirmed for early 2020. Alongside the expansion modules Will they hit their Q1 mark or will this roll to late 2020/early 2021? Not sure I can wait around much longer...
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 25, 2019 0:07:23 GMT -5
Sounds like DTS:X Pro was confirmed for early 2020. Trinnov announced that later this year they will be providing a DTS-X Pro software update (via free download) for their Altitude 32 and Altitude 16 processors. CEDIA 2019 was on in Denver, 12th to 15th September, where they demonstrated DTS-X Pro in an 11.4.6 system. Cheers Gary
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Post by mgbpuff on Sept 25, 2019 3:45:55 GMT -5
Here is an interesting article from an AVS post by user, Sdurani, that condences the history of Dolby Atmos commercial and home specs and the CE adaptations provided so far -
Quote: Originally Posted by midi-guy However, 16 channels decoding has been available since the advent of consumer Atmos. Commercial (theatrical) Atmos was released as a spec in 2012, whereas consumer (home) atmos was released in 2014. Commercial Atmos allows for up to 128 channels - 10-channel 7.1.2 bed, up to 118 for objects. Consumer Atmos was spec'd at 24.1.10 (35 channels), based on a 5.1 or 7.1 bed. in theory, 35 channels is the consumer Atmos limitation. Just to add a little. The 34 rendering assumptions (speaker locations) in the consumer version coincide with 61 or 63 (I forget the exact number) rendering assumptions in the commercial version. Subwoofer output is not considered a rendering assumption because it is derived via bass management (not Atmos decoding). The up to 118 objects in the commercial version coincide with up to 16 objects in the consumer version. The consumer version can combine nearby objects if there are too many to deliver individually.
The full 34-speaker consumer version of Atmos was available to manufacturers and chipmakers from the begining. The only thing holding back implementation for more than 11 speakers was DSP horsepower (which wasn't a limitation for Trinnov's CPU-based processor). Quote: But some niche high-end manufacturers implemented support for 16 ch Atmos in their initial release, and one of them (Trinnov) implemented 24.1.10 from the get go.
Trinnov on the other hand, used their own proprietary platform based on x86 computing hardware and developed software decoders that went up to the consumer Atmos limit, because they'd developed their platform initially for commercial theater systems.
It should also be noted that Trinnov's systems have gone beyond Atmos's 35 channel limit by using proprietary upmixers that allow for as many audio streams as you have channels on your equipment. They offer devices that output 48 channels. This would not be technically Atmos compliant though. However, there's nothing stopping any other provider from doing this. As an example Emotiva and StormAudio have annouced devices that can output up to 28/32 channels. The Trinnov Altitude32 initially maxed out at 32 outputs, with one being reserved for subwoofer out, so it could render to 31 of the 34 speakers locations. As far as I know, the platform was developed for consumer (moreso custom install) use. Dolby sells their own cinema decoder and doesn't license competitors.
The additional box that expands the number of outputs to 48 is for active crossovers or additional subwoofers or arraying channels, but not for proprietary upmixers. Does Trinnov even have an upmixer? In any case, Atmos cannot be upmixed, since the format is designed to natively scale to the speaker layout. Quote: Going back to the speaker layouts concept, Dolby has been coming out with more (new) approved layouts conforming to the Atmos spec. Dolby has been coming out with more (new) approved layouts conforming to the Atmos spec. One new one recently approved layout is 11.1.8. But if you think of it, this falls in between the lower limit of 5.1.2 and the upper limit 24.1.10. However, it wasn't officially approved until recently, whereas the 9.1.6 layout has been there since the release of consumer Atmos. There was a new version of Atmos a little over a year ago that included "Testing support for selected speaker configurations up to and including 11.1.8." That means Dolby finally had the ability to test speaker configurations up to 11.1.8 (their previous testing limit was 7.1.4). This only applies to DSP-based products, not CPU-based processors like Trinnov. So the 11.1.8 number that popped up a year ago wasn't a new speaker configuration, just the new limit for Dolby testing support for DSP-based products. Like
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Post by mgbpuff on Sept 25, 2019 3:55:39 GMT -5
DSP manufactures making immersive sound chips are ADI, and MDS/TI. MDS/TI came out with a 16 channel chip for its initial version and is used in the 'niche high-end manufacturers' mentioned above.
Trinnov uses a X86/x64 platform. There is no proven link between Monoprice and ATI or any other OEM but the decode / upmix features for the newest Arcams and Monoprice looks almost identical. This is because they are both likely using the same MDS/TI DSP solution.
The order of release for DTS:X Pro looks to be X86 (AKA Trinnov) and then TI / MDS; Analog Devices have not yet announced support so it will at the very least take much longer on the Emotiva platform. Denon and other Japanese manufacturers use AD so that may change but the bulk of their customers have little demand for >12 channels.
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Post by lrobertson on Sept 25, 2019 7:45:10 GMT -5
Sounds like DTS:X Pro was confirmed for early 2020. Alongside the expansion modules Will they hit their Q1 mark or will this roll to late 2020/early 2021? Not sure I can wait around much longer... I think the only responsible thing you can do is return the RMC and buy the trinnov 32 for 30k.
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Post by lrobertson on Sept 25, 2019 7:47:17 GMT -5
I wonder if Emotiva will have a way to utilize more than the 11.1.8 with the Pro or if they will call that the limit for now. I guess we should be able to find some install guidelines from trinnov soon.
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Post by bblv on Sept 25, 2019 14:39:24 GMT -5
Alongside the expansion modules Will they hit their Q1 mark or will this roll to late 2020/early 2021? Not sure I can wait around much longer... I think the only responsible thing you can do is return the RMC and buy the trinnov 32 for 30k. I may do that if the return window opens without answering any of these questions for true 24-28 channel support.
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Post by lrobertson on Sept 25, 2019 17:54:53 GMT -5
You would think the nda for 13.1.10 is over with storm audio’s product but I don’t know how that stuff works. It might have a lot to do with the chip developers like others have eluded to.
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 25, 2019 19:10:13 GMT -5
You would think the nda for 13.1.10 is over with storm audio’s product but I don’t know how that stuff works. It might have a lot to do with the chip developers like others have eluded to. As demo'd at CEDIA the Storm 2nd Generation (AKA Mark2) includes a new board design with updated processors is capable of 13.1.10 decoding, eARC HDMI, HDMI2.0b, HDCP2.2, DTS-X Pro, IMAX Enhanced, Auro-3D Version 2 (13.1) and Dirac Live Bass Management. Availability is stated as "early 2020". Cheers Gary
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 25, 2019 19:58:30 GMT -5
I think there is a lot of confusion all around.... For example, I am NOT aware of any 7.1.4 limitation on Dolby Atmos.... quite the contrary. What many folks seem to be confused about is that apparently CERTAIN SPECIFIC PRODUCERS OF DISCS have chosen to limit THEIR Atmos discs to 7.1.4 . (Dolby Atmos offers a huge amount of flexibility to directors and artists who make discs; and part of that flexibility includes the ability to make sure you don't alter it from the way they intended for you to hear it.)
Likewise, Dolby Atmos is an entirely different thing than the Dolby Surround UPMIXER. By design, Dolby Atmos content is played using a Dolby Atmos decoder; the DSU is for NON-ATMOS content. (The reason you cannot use the DSU to add channels to an Atmos mix is that it is assumed that the Atmos decoder is "playing it the way it was intended" to begin with.) On your final request... which seems like a good one... A SURROUND SOUND FORMAT, and the decoder that goes with it, are standards for delivering recorded sound in a specific way. The idea there is that the director and artist are able to deliver their work to you in exactly the way they intended. (The format is simply the method in which they deliver it... and is designed to enable them to do so with a much accuracy as possible.)
AN UPMIXER is almost the opposite; it is a way for you to ALTER content; to change it from the way it was delivered into something different that you personally prefer. For example, if you receive a stereo recording, and use the DSU to play it in 5.1.4 channels.... We can safely assume that the artist, and the mixing engineer, and the producer, EXPECT for you to listen to it in Stereo (because that's what they delivered to you).
Therefore, by using the upmixer, the resulting surround sound version is NOT WHAT THEY INTENDED. It is merely a way for you to impose your preferences in order to end up with something you personally find more pleasing. (And, yes, philosophically, it is possible that "they really intended for you to hear it in surround but were unable to deliver it that way due to technical limitations".)
And, yes, just to be very plain here.... If you receive a disc that is encoded as "Atmos 7.1.4" then that is the way the producers intended for you to listen to it. (I don't know all of the specific restrictions which the producer can apply to an Atmos disc if they wish to do so... but there are several.)
If you apply an upmixer and convert that 7.1.4 content into 9.1.6 YOU HAVE NOT MAGICALLY RETRIEVED "THE ORIGINAL 9.1.6 CHANNELS". If you upmix it, what you have done is to synthesize (make up) some extra channels to keep the rest of your speakers occupied. And, while the result may sound quite pleasant, it is not a part of the original mix or the original content. You have NOT "created" or "recovered" a 9.1.6 channel Atmos mix, or a specific reproduction of the original event; you have simply created a new mix BASED ON the original mix. The upmixer has no way of knowing where extra channels belong, or what belongs in them; it is merely technologically skilled at "faking it" to produce a result that "sounds plausable". (And, yes, some upmixers are better at guessing than others, or better able to make guesses that sound nice to you, but they are all still just guessing.)
An almost exact analogy would be if you were to acquire a small painting which you really liked. And, after you hung it on your wall, you hired an artist to "paint the rest of your wall so that it goes with the painting". You may find the result quite pleasing, and some artists will absolutely do a better job than others, or at least a job you personally prefer...
(I'm not specifically saying that this is a bad thing, or that you shouldn't do it, but merely reminding you about what's actually going on.)
Getting back to RMC-1 Speaker Expansion, looked at 3 DTS:X movies today ... all 7.1.4, widths activated, no rears, no middle tops. Movies: 4k DTS:X: Harry Potter 5, Jason Bourne, Battleship. When LPCM was forced in OPPO203, RMC-1 said PCM5.1(or 7.1 ... forgot)/DD_Surround ... why not neural:X? Did set RMC-1's 5.1 mode to neural:X, but still got DD_Surround ... on a DTS:X movie. lol. How does one force Neural:X to kick in with PCM on RMC-1? How does one force neural:X rather than DTS:X on Dts HDMA 7.1 sound format on RMC-1? @keithl : RMC-1 should give the Owners a choice of whether to activate DTS:X (which is not a sound format) or ATMOS (ditto) in conjunction with a sound format from a 4K (ATMOS/DTX:S) movie ... so Owners can choose which upmixer (DD_Surround or DTS Neural:X) to apply to that sound format. This is an RMC-1 EDID issue. The RMC-1 is a "Audio Sink" for sound ... similar to Displays and Projectors being "Video Sinks" for Video ... and OPPO203 applies audio the way the RMC-1 is telling it to in terms of RMC-1 audio capabilities ... what am I missing?
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