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Post by goozoo on Oct 2, 2019 15:44:21 GMT -5
Watched 4K DV/ATMOS Spider Man Away from Home last night with 9.1.6 config.. Widths were just wisps of special effect sounds ... no music at all. Totally opposite of 4K DV/ATMOS John Wick 3 which used widths effectively (WOW) for greater 3D immersion. First thing that was apparent was widths had to be cranked up in volume to even be noticeable. Seemed like sound going to widths were based on a very poor bot mathematical algorithm ... seemed like widths were not on the sound director's intent radar for 3D immersion. Too bad. Not sure what to think about the quality of the ATMOS sound track ... not sure how to judge it. I'll have to watch the movie again to figure out what to say about it. Weird. Of course Dolby Atmos does not support wides except as possible objective sound sources. In fact Dolby has said that they do not support wide because of diffraction interference. I too watched this movie last night. The sound was O.K. but seemed a little compressed to me. Height effects were pretty good. My system is 7.2.4 I’m not sure what you are referring to but Dolby in fact does support wides for ATMOS tracks but does not for the DSU. Wides are even supported in DTS:X but not heard as most are configured for 7.1.4.
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Post by goozoo on Oct 2, 2019 15:54:32 GMT -5
Watched 4K DV/ATMOS Spider Man Away from Home last night with 9.1.6 config.. Widths were just wisps of special effect sounds ... no music at all. Totally opposite of 4K DV/ATMOS John Wick 3 which used widths effectively (WOW) for greater 3D immersion. First thing that was apparent was widths had to be cranked up in volume to even be noticeable. Seemed like sound going to widths were based on a very poor bot mathematical algorithm ... seemed like widths were not on the sound director's intent radar for 3D immersion. Too bad. Not sure what to think about the quality of the ATMOS sound track ... not sure how to judge it. I'll have to watch the movie again to figure out what to say about it. Weird. You would enjoy the DTS track a lot more. This is one of the great benefits of having an outboard DSP where you can choose to mix the side surrounds and corresponding front channel into the ever quiet wides for greater immersion (when indicated). This movie also drops off like a rock below 30Hz. You also could add BEQ filters to boost the low end as found on the AVS thread. This is where a non Dolby upmixer would have really come in handy. All this talk about expanded channels just so they can sit silent. I just hope people are going into these expansion modules with their eyes open.
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Post by lrobertson on Oct 2, 2019 15:55:25 GMT -5
Of course Dolby Atmos does not support wides except as possible objective sound sources. In fact Dolby has said that they do not support wide because of diffraction interference. I too watched this movie last night. The sound was O.K. but seemed a little compressed to me. Height effects were pretty good. My system is 7.2.4 I’m not sure what you are referring to but Dolby in fact does support wides for ATMOS tracks but does not for the DSU. Wides are even supported in DTS:X but not heard as most are configured for 7.1.4. I think he’s just referring to bed channels in Atmos. He mentioned objects can go to wides for Atmos. Beds can’t or at least we shouldn’t expect them to even though documentation sounds like channels can be added in place of the 128 potential objects. So theoretically a mixer could create what is essentially a channel for wides and if you had the left surround 1 and eliminated the left wide speaker in the settings the content wouldn’t just image between the surround 1 and left front speaker like it was an object. It would just be eliminated because it’s intended speaker was missing. This is how pinned Atmos for heights works in a way. I may be wrong how I read it. Nospam mentioned the cp850 works with arrays I think meaning bed arrays. I wonder if that machine has more activity in the wide channels than we will get or if it’s like the DSU where it focuses all that extra type of activity towards the side and rear sound stage.
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 2, 2019 15:56:38 GMT -5
Of course Dolby Atmos does not support wides except as possible objective sound sources. In fact Dolby has said that they do not support wide because of diffraction interference. I too watched this movie last night. The sound was O.K. but seemed a little compressed to me. Height effects were pretty good. My system is 7.2.4 I’m not sure what you are referring to but Dolby in fact does support wides for ATMOS tracks but does not for the DSU. Wides are even supported in DTS:X but not heard as most are configured for 7.1.4. Nope - Dolby does not support a wide bed channel. DTS , on the other has always supported wide channels.
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 2, 2019 16:44:17 GMT -5
Dolby does show speakers that they label as wide left and wide right, but if you look at the layouts where they are shown, you will se that they are actually forward side surround locations, not front wide locations. In fact Dolby also shows speakers symmetrically behind the listener as the wides are in front and they call these left and right surround 1. So I think all these side speakers constitute a left and right array.
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Post by lrobertson on Oct 2, 2019 18:13:29 GMT -5
www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdfMost channels have overlap when you look into all 24. Wides are 60 plus or minus and the surround 1’s are 75 plus or minus. I remember some trinnov guys choosing to select their wides speakers as side surround 1 over wides for personal reasons on activity but maybe there isn’t as much of a reason now with more and more content trickling in where you wouldn’t want to miss out on the wides. I took that to mean the wides weren’t being given information to act as one with an array.. This was sdrucker that mentioned that on avsforum. This is why I’d love to know what dolby sticks us with with storm’s new 13.1.10 and what we’d get if 17.1.10 was ever released. It’s only a matter of time before we get to see the 13.1.10 layout on pdf.
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Post by TDifEQ on Oct 2, 2019 20:04:50 GMT -5
Watched 4K DV/ATMOS Spider Man Away from Home last night with 9.1.6 config.. Widths were just wisps of special effect sounds ... no music at all. Totally opposite of 4K DV/ATMOS John Wick 3 which used widths effectively (WOW) for greater 3D immersion. First thing that was apparent was widths had to be cranked up in volume to even be noticeable. Seemed like sound going to widths were based on a very poor bot mathematical algorithm ... seemed like widths were not on the sound director's intent radar for 3D immersion. Too bad. Not sure what to think about the quality of the ATMOS sound track ... not sure how to judge it. I'll have to watch the movie again to figure out what to say about it. Weird. Of course Dolby Atmos does not support wides except as possible objective sound sources. In fact Dolby has said that they do not support wide because of diffraction interference. I too watched this movie last night. The sound was O.K. but seemed a little compressed to me. Height effects were pretty good. My system is 7.2.4 Test results from RMC-1 9.1.6 config at home. Need more RMC-1 owners to post their experience with using width speakers. 1. ATMOS does support width speakers. No doubt about it. John Wick 3 movie sends full range music (enough to justify tower speakers) and special effects (objects) to width speakers. See post below. 2. DSU does not support widths (even though ATMOS does) on either PCM or older Dolby Sound 2D formats. 3. PCM cannot be used with DTS Neural:X on RMC-1 ... only choice for PCM is DD_Surround (DSU) ... bug 4. DTS HDMA 5.1 and 7.1 with DTS Neural:X does not support widths on RMC-1 ... 5. EDIT: Just verified ATMOS music has widths channels available with 2K DD TrueHD/ATMOS Hans Zimmer Live in Prague . Widths are not used when music is playing ... just between music scores to bring in 3D immersion with audience applause and when Hans Zimmer is speaking. Again, widths channels are available with ATMOS music. Last night was John Wick 3 Parabellum at -12dB night with a 9.1.6 config. Was getting gun shots to register at 97dB on the sound meter. Very clear and tight gun shot sounds. Noticed there was a lot of full range music coming out of the widths at times ... enough where tower speakers would be appropriate. Noticed some special effects (e.g. knife throwing) in widths. Widths really added a lot to the “front stage” presence in JW3. Very rare was there rain coming out of widths. The one time was early in the movie where John Wick was running up the steps to the library. Got book shelve speakers for the six height speakers … so the fidelity is pretty good. Any one listen for the differences btwn Tops and Heights speakers configurations? Might try doing that soon. This thread is about speaker expansion ... how far we can push RMC-1 ... it's interesting to compare test results from RMC-1's design implementation with .pdf's from DTS and Dolby.
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Post by TDifEQ on Oct 2, 2019 20:22:02 GMT -5
Of course Dolby Atmos does not support wides except as possible objective sound sources. In fact Dolby has said that they do not support wide because of diffraction interference. I too watched this movie last night. The sound was O.K. but seemed a little compressed to me. Height effects were pretty good. My system is 7.2.4 I’m not sure what you are referring to but Dolby in fact does support wides for ATMOS tracks but does not for the DSU. Wides are even supported in DTS:X but not heard as most are configured for 7.1.4. I'll test more DTS:X movies to see if any use widths, assuming you were referring to DTS:X source material. Did not know source material may be the reason for widths not being used.
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Post by TDifEQ on Oct 2, 2019 20:27:52 GMT -5
www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdfMost channels have overlap when you look into all 24. Wides are 60 plus or minus and the surround 1’s are 75 plus or minus. I remember some trinnov guys choosing to select their wides speakers as side surround 1 over wides for personal reasons on activity but maybe there isn’t as much of a reason now with more and more content trickling in where you wouldn’t want to miss out on the wides. I took that to mean the wides weren’t being given information to act as one with an array.. This was sdrucker with the 16 channel that mentioned that. I’m sure the 32 channel owners could care less and just added more speakers everywhere they wanted. This is why I’d love to know what dolby sticks us with with storm’s new 13.1.10 and what we’d get if 17.1.10 was ever released. It’s only a matter of time before we get to see the 13.1.10 layout on pdf. Nice .pdf. Any idea why RMC-1 cannot have Middle Heights, only Middle Tops in 9.1.6 config?
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Post by lrobertson on Oct 2, 2019 20:45:28 GMT -5
www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdfMost channels have overlap when you look into all 24. Wides are 60 plus or minus and the surround 1’s are 75 plus or minus. I remember some trinnov guys choosing to select their wides speakers as side surround 1 over wides for personal reasons on activity but maybe there isn’t as much of a reason now with more and more content trickling in where you wouldn’t want to miss out on the wides. I took that to mean the wides weren’t being given information to act as one with an array.. This was sdrucker with the 16 channel that mentioned that. I’m sure the 32 channel owners could care less and just added more speakers everywhere they wanted. This is why I’d love to know what dolby sticks us with with storm’s new 13.1.10 and what we’d get if 17.1.10 was ever released. It’s only a matter of time before we get to see the 13.1.10 layout on pdf. Nice .pdf. Any idea why RMC-1 cannot have Middle Heights, only Middle Tops in 9.1.6 config? Top middle overhead is the language used on the pdf. Probably just confusion over the language but all the same. And about DTS it is both the source material and the decoding ability that is the problem right now. With Pro we will have the decoding ability for wides and the ability to apply neural:x for wides for old content but we won’t have old content that has object info encoded for wides. The old content is very similar to pinned Atmos. The difference though from Atmos is DTS will allow us to apply neural:x upmixing to DTS:X where Atmos isn’t meant to be touched or manipulated by the DSU. I’m hoping that changes and we can apply neural:x to Atmos for at the very least the pinned movies. And if Emotiva did have a proprietary upmixer hopefully it can pick up that outboard dsp task that goozoo mentioned to add some wide content for envelopment and whatever other speakers sit between the bed channels.
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Post by TDifEQ on Oct 2, 2019 21:01:53 GMT -5
Watched 4K DV/ATMOS Spider Man Away from Home last night with 9.1.6 config.. Widths were just wisps of special effect sounds ... no music at all. Totally opposite of 4K DV/ATMOS John Wick 3 which used widths effectively (WOW) for greater 3D immersion. First thing that was apparent was widths had to be cranked up in volume to even be noticeable. Seemed like sound going to widths were based on a very poor bot mathematical algorithm ... seemed like widths were not on the sound director's intent radar for 3D immersion. Too bad. Not sure what to think about the quality of the ATMOS sound track ... not sure how to judge it. I'll have to watch the movie again to figure out what to say about it. Weird. You would enjoy the DTS track a lot more. This is one of the great benefits of having an outboard DSP where you can choose to mix the side surrounds and corresponding front channel into the ever quiet wides for greater immersion (when indicated). This movie also drops off like a rock below 30Hz. You also could add BEQ filters to boost the low end as found on the AVS thread. This is where a non Dolby upmixer would have really come in handy. All this talk about expanded channels just so they can sit silent. I just hope people are going into these expansion modules with their eyes open. Going to figure out how to do this. Seems like a lot of people are doing this. Sounds very interesting. Thx.
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 2, 2019 23:21:33 GMT -5
On the John Wick 3 disc, play the base Dolby TrueHD track alone without an upmixer. You will not find wide material because Dolby Home does not support wides as base channels. Then when you play it with Atmos and you hear width information, know that all of it is object recorded material. I don't have an RMC-1, but I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night!
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Post by goozoo on Oct 2, 2019 23:57:05 GMT -5
On the John Wick 3 disc, play the base Dolby TrueHD track alone without an upmixer. You will not find wide material because Dolby Home does not support wides as base channels. Then when you play it with Atmos and you hear width information, know that all of it is object recorded material. I don't have an RMC-1, but I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night! Bed channels are defined as 7.1 period; regardless of format. What are referred to currently as front wides were called front surround speakers at one point early on. Call it whatever you wish doesn’t really matter. If you do not have an RMC1 or another ATMOS enables processor, I don’t understand what your argument here is on this thread about semantics. Those that do have immersive capable processors do utilize their front wide channels when there is content available. As has been said before, it would be nice if more actual RMC1 owners would report their experiences here with regard to their current 9.1.6 setup and help the community share/ learn together.
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 3, 2019 0:42:37 GMT -5
Talking only amongst RMC-1 owners is like inbreeding. I told you how Atmos Home( to date) was designed to work - 7 base channels only, 1 LFE channel, all other speakers utilized for object oriented sound.
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Post by TDifEQ on Oct 3, 2019 5:23:00 GMT -5
On the John Wick 3 disc, play the base Dolby TrueHD track alone without an upmixer. You will not find wide material because Dolby Home does not support wides as base channels. Then when you play it with Atmos and you hear width information, know that all of it is object recorded material. I don't have an RMC-1, but I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night! Sorry. We appreciate your feedback, but you're trolling. Can't fight the data that widths are available in ATMOS and have been verified to play full range music in John Wick3 and well as special effects. You're source for this information is dated and you don't have an RMC-1.
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Post by TDifEQ on Oct 3, 2019 5:31:12 GMT -5
This thread justifies the need for 1 speaker expansion module for the RMC-1 ... current Dolby TrueHD/Dolby ATMOS supports at least 11.1.8. We need a Speaker Expansion module to verify this. We have verified 9.1.6 works and we have verified 4k DV/ATMOS movie source material exists to play both full range music (at times to enhance 3D immersion) and special effects in the width speakers in 4K DV/ATMOS John Wick 3, Parabellum. More RMC-1 owners are needed to jump aboard and test/verify RMC-1 speaker expansion.
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Post by lrobertson on Oct 3, 2019 7:36:08 GMT -5
Talking only amongst RMC-1 owners is like inbreeding. I told you how Atmos Home( to date) was designed to work - 7 base channels only, 1 LFE channel, all other speakers utilized for object oriented sound. ” Tracks 11-128 may be used for Objects or beds” The Netflix object audio guidelines. It does end up being an argument over semantics and how we want to define things. I’m assuming the pinned audio channels are actually considered beds rather than static objects or they could image between speakers with different layouts. Pretty sure TrueHd playback isn’t evidence only 7.1 bed channels can exist. There’s probably just a macro process that might ignore additional bed channels utilizing only the 7.1 base channels. It might seem like inbreeding because it’s too complicated for us to describe how it was designed without being the ones that designed it. partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001794307-Netflix-Sound-Mix-Specifications-Best-Practices-v1-1
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 3, 2019 8:11:48 GMT -5
First of all, I am not a troll. I have been a member here for quite some time and I do have a 7.2.4 Atmos system utilizing a Marantz AV7702 pre-pro. I do not have wides. However, Atmos was originally created for cinema whch has no predetermined beds at all, but beds can indeed be simulated by the mixer using object oriented control (meta data). For the home, however, Atmos had to include base channels to be backward compatible with previous Dolby Digital Surround formats which never exceeded 7 bed channels. Whether or not speakers in the 'wide' location have sound depends on the original Dolby mixer putting sound there purposefully by meta data coding. So if you mean that Atmos supports wides because sound can emanate from wides in some Atmos material, you are correct. But Atmos does not support more than 7 bed channels (which do not depend on meta data) although a given mixer(programmer) can simulate a wide bed or just some object oriented individual sounds at his desire. Note that I am only talking about Dolby Atmos Blu-ray material - not DTS, not DTS-x, not Auro, and not upmixers. The latest Dolby Atmos expaination for non technical consumers can be read here ( www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/home/dolby-atmos.html#2 ) and if, you read carefully, it says exactly what I am saying. Introducing Netflix material into this discussion is just confusing everybody, but that's what you seem to do continually, irobertson!
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Post by lrobertson on Oct 3, 2019 8:34:59 GMT -5
First of all, I am not a troll. I have been a member here for quite some time and I do have a 7.2.4 Atmos system utilizing a Marantz AV7702 pre-pro. I do not have wides. However, Atmos was originally created for cinema whch has no predetermined beds at all, but beds can indeed be simulated by the mixer using object oriented control (meta data). For the home, however, Atmos had to include base channels to be backward compatible with previous Dolby Digital Surround formats which never exceeded 7 bed channels. Whether or not speakers in the 'wide' location have sound depends on the original Dolby mixer putting sound there purposefully by meta data coding. So if you mean that Atmos supports wides because sound can emanate from wides in some Atmos material, you are correct. But Atmos does not support more than 7 bed channels (which do not depend on meta data) although a given mixer(programmer) can simulate a wide bed or just some object oriented individual sounds at his desire. Note that I am only talking about Dolby Atmos Blu-ray material - not DTS, not DTS-x, not Auro, and not upmixers. The latest Dolby Atmos expaination for non technical consumers can be read here ( www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/home/dolby-atmos.html#2 ) and if, you read carefully, it says exactly what I am saying. Introducing Netflix material into this discussion is just confusing everybody, but that's what you seem to do continually, irobertson! Having to rely on random people on the internet over official documentation that contradicts them is even more confusing 🤦🏼♂️ www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-for-the-home-theater.pdfThis one says 9.1 bed channels
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 3, 2019 8:38:00 GMT -5
First of all, I am not a troll. I have been a member here for quite some time and I do have a 7.2.4 Atmos system utilizing a Marantz AV7702 pre-pro. I do not have wides. However, Atmos was originally created for cinema whch has no predetermined beds at all, but beds can indeed be simulated by the mixer using object oriented control (meta data). For the home, however, Atmos had to include base channels to be backward compatible with previous Dolby Digital Surround formats which never exceeded 7 bed channels. Whether or not speakers in the 'wide' location have sound depends on the original Dolby mixer putting sound there purposefully by meta data coding. So if you mean that Atmos supports wides because sound can emanate from wides in some Atmos material, you are correct. But Atmos does not support more than 7 bed channels (which do not depend on meta data) although a given mixer(programmer) can simulate a wide bed or just some object oriented individual sounds at his desire. Note that I am only talking about Dolby Atmos Blu-ray material - not DTS, not DTS-x, not Auro, and not upmixers. The latest Dolby Atmos expaination for non technical consumers can be read here ( www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/home/dolby-atmos.html#2 ) and if, you read carefully, it says exactly what I am saying. Introducing Netflix material into this discussion is just confusing everybody, but that's what you seem to do continually, irobertson! Having to rely on random people on the internet over official documentation that contradicts them is even more confusing 🤦🏼♂️ I don't even understand that comment, aren't we all random? What official Dolby documentation contradicts what I said - not Netflix, but Dolby?
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