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Post by rockman85 on Oct 2, 2019 11:44:43 GMT -5
I have been secretly not in love with my hi-fi system since I put it together. I had an unusual experience as a kid whereby my dad was given 2 Canton CT-1000s from a client which he didnt want and gave to me. There I was, 11 years old with a pair of $4,000 hifi speakers and a Sony intergrated amplfier that my Sis have to me, which itself was a handme down from our older brother. I absolutely loved these speakers, crystal clear and tons of low end. The main thing that differed between my childhood hifi system and today was that my intergrated amp had tone controls. I usually kept the bass at around +7 and the treble at around +4. I dont know if its right or wrong, but this is how I enjoy music. I have read endlessly about why tone controls were a bandaid to make up for crappy speakers etc. But regardless of this fact, and regardless of what speakers I am listening to, I enjoy a boost in these freqencies generally. In fact, my favorite pair of headphones, the Denon AH-D600 has often been desribed as V shaped. Perhaps its the kind of music I prefer, Metal and Electronica, but music just has no balls and no sparkle or air without a boost to these frequencies. I recently decided to do away with the purist attitude and use my Bluesound Node2i's Bass and Treble boost. For the first time in the two years since I put the system together did I feel that sense of OOMPH! that was missing and the clearing of the muddy neutral flat garbage that the boost in treble brings about. I really wish there were tone controls on more hifi equipment as a standard without having to dig through menus or add some other equalizer box or software. Just two knobs that boost the 80-100hz range and somewhere in the 7,000-10,000khz range.
Does anyone else feel this way? When I A/B my music, unboosted just sounds so flat and ugly and boring to me. Admittedly this phenomenon is limited to the genres I mentioned, with music that is more focused on acoustic instruments or vocals the eq has way less of an effect.
So who is with me?
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 2, 2019 12:01:29 GMT -5
I too like tone controls and just complained the other day that the RMC-1โs were making noise. I donโt use them too often, but some recordings just suck and they need help, theyโre also useful as adjustable โLoudnessโ controls, when youโre listening at low volumes.
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 2, 2019 13:23:29 GMT -5
As your system gets more and more sophisticated, more and more accurate, tone controls become not only useless but additional circuitry that can malfunction. It was useful in early audio to make up for poor speakers, untreated rooms, etc. Today it is a sign of either outdated design or a manufacturer simply catering to aging hardheaded audiophiles.
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Post by gus4emo on Oct 2, 2019 13:36:54 GMT -5
A matter of opinion, I like using the controls, not all recordings sound the same, generally just leave it at a setting, rarely adjusting a song or two...
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Post by monkumonku on Oct 2, 2019 15:59:50 GMT -5
As your system gets more and more sophisticated, more and more accurate, tone controls become not only useless but additional circuitry that can malfunction. It was useful in early audio to make up for poor speakers, untreated rooms, etc. Today it is a sign of either outdated design or a manufacturer simply catering to aging hardheaded audiophiles. While I don't use tone controls myself, even if a system is extremely accurate that doesn't mean the quality/accuracy of recordings played on it will be consistent. I think for a good system, tone controls are more for correcting deficiencies in the recording rather than in the system itself. And these days some rooms may be problematical enough that even with acoustic treatments, tone controls might be a good thing to have. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 2, 2019 16:17:30 GMT -5
As your system gets more and more sophisticated, more and more accurate, tone controls become not only useless but additional circuitry that can malfunction. It was useful in early audio to make up for poor speakers, untreated rooms, etc. Today it is a sign of either outdated design or a manufacturer simply catering to aging hardheaded audiophiles. While I don't use tone controls myself, even if a system is extremely accurate that doesn't mean the quality/accuracy of recordings played on it will be consistent. I think for a good system, tone controls are more for correcting deficiencies in the recording rather than in the system itself. And these days some rooms may be problematical enough that even with acoustic treatments, tone controls might be a good thing to have. I donโt play bad recordings on my good equipment.  |
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Post by DavidR on Oct 2, 2019 16:27:44 GMT -5
Tone Controls - What are those?
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Post by gus4emo on Oct 2, 2019 18:50:42 GMT -5
While I don't use tone controls myself, even if a system is extremely accurate that doesn't mean the quality/accuracy of recordings played on it will be consistent. I think for a good system, tone controls are more for correcting deficiencies in the recording rather than in the system itself. And these days some rooms may be problematical enough that even with acoustic treatments, tone controls might be a good thing to have. I donโt play bad recordings on my good equipment. So whatever media you use, all songs, recordings are perfect? Highly doubt it, lol... |
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Post by Bonzo on Oct 2, 2019 18:57:25 GMT -5
While I don't use tone controls myself, even if a system is extremely accurate that doesn't mean the quality/accuracy of recordings played on it will be consistent. I think for a good system, tone controls are more for correcting deficiencies in the recording rather than in the system itself. And these days some rooms may be problematical enough that even with acoustic treatments, tone controls might be a good thing to have. I donโt play bad recordings on my good equipment. I'm really glad you put the smile face after that statement. ๐ Some of my favorite music hasn't been distributed in very good quality, yet. Just as a quick example, Jimmy Page needs to get his schiit together and remaster the 2 The Firm albums. They sound terrible on a good system. Unlike Coverdale / Page, that is a fantastic reference CD. But ya know what, I still love to listen to them. Not listening to something you love musically just because it doesn't have top notch sound quality is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of. Completely idiotic. Sad really. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 2, 2019 23:01:19 GMT -5
I donโt play bad recordings on my good equipment. I'm really glad you put the smile face after that statement. ๐ Some of my favorite music hasn't been distributed in very good quality, yet. Just as a quick example, Jimmy Page needs to get his schiit together and remaster the 2 The Firm albums. They sound terrible on a good system. Unlike Coverdale / Page, that is a fantastic reference CD. But ya know what, I still love to listen to them. Not listening to something you love musically just because it doesn't have top notch sound quality is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of. Completely idiotic. Sad really. I wish you would have put a smiley on that! |
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 2, 2019 23:02:59 GMT -5
I donโt play bad recordings on my good equipment. So whatever media you use, all songs, recordings are perfect? Highly doubt it, lol... No, I might play it, I just know tone controls won't make it right! |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 2, 2019 23:11:29 GMT -5
Yup I have no use of tone controls. Most of the ones I've experienced don't quite nail the transparency. Though sometimes some eq can help things out a bit in imperfect rooms. If your system doesn't have oomph, and sounds a bit dull without it then it's your system. Eq is an easy band-aid so I can't grudge anybody the enjoyment of such. But I am probably never going to use a tone control in my system.
Having said that, if you want that punch ooomph, you are likely not getting smooth quality bass response. And I'm not just talking about the volume of the bass - which a lot of single subs can easily handle. I'm talking about the smoothness. Dual subwoofers can go a long way in to providing a nice full sound that's full of clarity with that bit of oomph that people crave for.
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Post by Gary Cook on Oct 2, 2019 23:14:40 GMT -5
I have been secretly not in love with my hi-fi system since I put it together. I had an unusual experience as a kid whereby my dad was given 2 Canton CT-1000s from a client which he didnt want and gave to me. There I was, 11 years old with a pair of $4,000 hifi speakers and a Sony intergrated amplfier that my Sis have to me, which itself was a handme down from our older brother. I absolutely loved these speakers, crystal clear and tons of low end. The main thing that differed between my childhood hifi system and today was that my intergrated amp had tone controls. I usually kept the bass at around +7 and the treble at around +4. I dont know if its right or wrong, but this is how I enjoy music. I have read endlessly about why tone controls were a bandaid to make up for crappy speakers etc. But regardless of this fact, and regardless of what speakers I am listening to, I enjoy a boost in these freqencies generally. In fact, my favorite pair of headphones, the Denon AH-D600 has often been desribed as V shaped. Perhaps its the kind of music I prefer, Metal and Electronica, but music just has no balls and no sparkle or air without a boost to these frequencies. I recently decided to do away with the purist attitude and use my Bluesound Node2i's Bass and Treble boost. For the first time in the two years since I put the system together did I feel that sense of OOMPH! that was missing and the clearing of the muddy neutral flat garbage that the boost in treble brings about. I really wish there were tone controls on more hifi equipment as a standard without having to dig through menus or add some other equalizer box or software. Just two knobs that boost the 80-100hz range and somewhere in the 7,000-10,000khz range. Does anyone else feel this way? When I A/B my music, unboosted just sounds so flat and ugly and boring to me. Admittedly this phenomenon is limited to the genres I mentioned, with music that is more focused on acoustic instruments or vocals the eq has way less of an effect. So who is with me? What do you do when you go to a live performance by one of your favourite artists/musicians? Ask then to pleased turn up the treble and bass? Tell them that you don't like their normal sound and it needs boosting? Complain to them face to face about their recordings having "no balls and no sparkle or air"? Just curious  Cheers Gary |
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Post by geeqner on Oct 3, 2019 9:42:41 GMT -5
Like almost everything in audio - MY answer to this one is that "it depends":
I LIKE Tone Controls (preferrably, easy to get-to) in MY CAR - I listen to both CD and Radio in our older 2010 Subaru and add XM in our newer VW.
Differences between sources like these seem to require tweaking and I find that MANY FM Radio Stations have attempted to "Out-BASS" eachother to the point where if I feel the need to listen to them, I have to back WWWWaaaaaaaayyyyyyy... offf on the Bass in order to achieve some semblance to the "balanced" sound that I prefer.
I also grew-up during the 1980's - when nearly EVERYTHING HAD to incorporate a Graphic Equalizer and Spectrum Analyzer Display. (AND if you were one of those rare people "with a clue" - they WERE sometimes handy for compensating for Room Acoustics if they were selective enough.) Personally, I prefer PARAMETRIC equalizers - but they don't bring the "Audio Bling Factor" of a Stereo 21-Band Graphic with LEDs on the Sliders.
I helped to design several systems for Auditoriums, where we designed-in (2) Equalizers:
-ONE that was set to produce a FLAT Frequency Response within the Room (Set with a room half-ful of "volunteer" sonic absorbers). That one was "locked-down", marked, and labeled.
-The SECOND one was used for various types of presentations, in order to tweak the system output for their particular purposes / preferences
AT HOME - I find that good recordings, played through a good sound system rarely require tweaking.
Occasionally, something COULD use a little tweaking or dial-down bass when Wifey is napping etc
So - IN GENERAL, I still want 'em, but I want to be able to DEFEAT / Bypass them. Preferrably, completely remove them from the circuitry when they are not needed / wanted
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Post by monkumonku on Oct 3, 2019 10:03:33 GMT -5
How about this...
For those who eschew tone controls, imagine if your system did have them but you just didn't use them.
Now say you get a new recording. And say someone who was admiring your system accidentally touched the tone control knob(s) and moved it up or down by a notch. Now when you play that new recording, are you going to be able to tell that it has been altered by the tone controls? Would you be thinking something is wrong with the recording, or would you be thinking it sounds fine?
And lets say that you are still unaware of this when the person who accidentally touched the control notices what they did and restores it to its flat position.
Then you listen to the recording again. Would you think hmm... this now sounds deficient in some way?
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Post by monkumonku on Oct 3, 2019 10:06:58 GMT -5
Something else to think about -
If you never use tone controls, then what is the purpose of purchasing a recording that has been remastered?
If you listen to the remaster and like it better than the original then what if you had been able to achieve a similar result by using tone controls?
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I don't use tone controls myself but that's mainly from being lazy and because once I start using them there's no end to adjusting them and I'd rather just listen to the recording as is. I even bought the Schiit tone control unit but ended up not using it for that reason.
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Post by drtrey3 on Oct 3, 2019 10:17:02 GMT -5
I use tone controls when the recording is poor and needs some help. Pop by U2 was unlistenable with that hot treble, at least on vinyl. So that one got the tone control treatment.
Trey
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Post by millst on Oct 3, 2019 10:18:02 GMT -5
What do you do when you go to a live performance by one of your favourite artists/musicians? Ask then to pleased turn up the treble and bass? Tell them that you don't like their normal sound and it needs boosting? Complain to them face to face about their recordings having "no balls and no sparkle or air"? Just curious Cheers Gary Why not? I've been to plenty of live performances where the sound config was bad. Half of the sound engineers out there are deaf from touring without protecting their ears. Not everyone listens to orchestras in concert halls. |
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Post by vcautokid on Oct 3, 2019 10:25:47 GMT -5
I gotta have 'em. Because of the endless Deoxit I have to use on them when they get dirty. No really. Have been on a restoring kick lately.
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Post by millst on Oct 3, 2019 10:25:57 GMT -5
If you never use tone controls, then what is the purpose of purchasing a recording that has been remastered? If you listen to the remaster and like it better than the original then what if you had been able to achieve a similar result by using tone controls? I always think it's a bit silly when people treat recordings like some reference, pristine standard. Countless decisions went into the process. What microphones were used? What processing was applied. What speakers were used during mastering? And so on...
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