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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 16, 2019 6:00:32 GMT -5
And having done some research, I think all the "blame Apple" advice is bogus. Apple has offered developer packages for some time now, and many third-party apps were Catalina ready before the operating system was released. Therefore, Roon obviously had the option to prepare their software and apparently chose not to. Since I see no evidence to the contrary, I think my original "blame Roon" statement stands.
Now I still could be wrong, but from what I've seen on the internet, my impression is that Apple made developer information available well in advance of the operating system release. Am I mistaken?
Boom
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Post by DYohn on Oct 16, 2019 10:16:08 GMT -5
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 16, 2019 10:39:47 GMT -5
I sort of agree - and sort of disagree - and I'm afraid that goes double for Apple.
(Fair warning... this is a bit of a rant against Apple... but, to me, this just seems to be one more example of "Apple asking for it".)
As far as I can see Microsoft and Apple have been getting closer and closer together for years... And, with this last release, they may have actually "crossed paths"... In the old days, Apple had their walled garden, with a very limited number of programs you could run, every one of which had to be approved by Apple.
But they claimed that, in return, they offered simplicity and security.
Every Mac program would run on any Mac, even ones that were a few years old, and security simply wasn't much of a problem.
The cost of all this was that Apple computers were expensive and the software you could get for them was rather limited. But, for many folks, that was apparently a worthwhile trade-off.
Nowadays, Apple computers seem to have about as many security issues as Microsoft... And you seem to have to update your Apple computer every few years (lately even more often than Windows)... And there DO seem to be compatibility issues every time this happens... (And Windows 10 is a lot more Apple-like, with an App Store, and all those goofy features designed to do stuff for you.)
But Apple computers are still far more expensive... And the selection of software for them is still far more limited...
And now it's Apple who is forcing you to update everything all the time... Microsoft continued to support Windows 7 with security updates for many years after it officially became obsolete....
But now it's Apple telling you to "update or else"... To be fair... we shouldn't be worried about all those updates to plug security holes because there shouldn't be any security holes.
But isn't it Apple who was promising a better experience in return for accepting their limitations?
What ever happened to that? To add a little perspective to the current Roon situation..... - Roon Core probably won't even run on an iPad (and most people - and especially the folks at Roon - seem to agree that it would be a silly idea to even try) - And it really doesn't make much sense to pay for a MacBook, and pay so much for its being sleek and portable, and having such a nice screen, and then tie it to a network cable as a server - And, if we limit the discussion to "desktop computers", Apple is down around 10% of the market, so that does make them a "minor player" in that market
So, even if you're generally an Apple fan..... it probably makes sense to consider just running Roon on an NUC and calling it a day. I'm sure they will get this current situation settled....
But it seems to me that, if Apple was paying attention, they would have avoided changing something as basic as file shares in such a way as to break stuff... Or, at the very least, they could have offered a "compatibility mode switch" to set it back to the old way if it was a problem. ...If the programs you need are running just fine with the version of the operating system that's installed then there is no reason to update either... Sorry, KeithL - I've got to call that statement out. Your claim is ONLY true if the computer is used for the sandboxed programs alone, and the computer never, ever connects to the internet. The reason that Apple and Microsoft update their operating systems continuously is to plug security holes that malware and viri are trying to exploit. Since the vast majority of computer owners utilize their machines for multiple tasks (many of which DO involve the internet), keeping a no-longer-supported operating system is just bad business... Cordially - Boom |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 16, 2019 10:45:49 GMT -5
I don’t know how much assigning blame helps the situation, but the two problems that affect me the most (4K HDMI & Music App Remote) are in Apple’s court to fix. Another thread I’m watching complains of iTunes artwork being lost (also and Apple issue), however my artwork came across just fine.
On the other hand my most used 3rd party App, Parallels Desktop (VM manager), works perfectly for me. This is obviously complex software and they produced an update in late August that was Catalina compatible; so they took advantage of the beta software and whatever Apple compatibility information came out of the Developer Conference last June.
Going back to your original statement about dropping Roon, I’d just use your general satisfaction with the program to determine what you do next, though how they deal with what can be described as an ‘Apple issue’, will show something about how seriously they take Apple customers.
Edit: Out of curiosity, what format is your external music drive?
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Post by KeithL on Oct 16, 2019 11:39:41 GMT -5
I absolutely agree... It's never a good idea to accept ANY update until it's been out a while... And, yes, I totally agree that to be true for BOTH Apple and Windows...
And it's an even better idea to confirm that there are no specific issues with any programs you consider important before updating your O/S... Back in the old days you would never even consider updating your operating system without first confirming that all your important software would still work. (Both Microsoft and Apple are rather pushy about updates. these days... but Apple users seem much more trusting about such things.  )
The very idea that the operating system is such a big deal is relatively new. The operating system is nothing more than part of the box you need to run the software. The software is the important part.
Twenty years ago, if you wanted to run Roon, you would go to Roon's website, and see which computer and operating system would enable you to run it. You wouldn't even consider looking at it from the other direction.
However, even with the Windows 8 debacle, Microsoft DID continue to support Windows 7 with security updates for several years after Windows 10 came out... They tried to convince you to upgrade... rather too enthusiastically at times... but they didn't actually tell you that you had to.
(As I recall they also did offer a "rollback" option if you didn't like it.... although I suspect that might not have always worked especially well.)
I am told by those who know that rolling back the operating system on Apple computers is possible but somewhat difficult.
It involves reinstalling the operating system...
And you should be able to do so without breaking anything...
But you have to jump through some hoops to AVOID reinstalling the current version...
Just to set the record straight.....
I'll be the first to admit that Microsoft often makes serious mistakes...
Windows frequently has issues, often serious, and they aren't always as prompt as I would like in fixing them... But, then, we all know that Microsoft is an evil empire set on taking over the world. And we all know that Windows is a big complicated operating system with a lot of baggage.
However, there are two things that especially bug me about Apple...
The first is that Apple insists they're different... and many Apple users seem not to have seen through this even yet. The other is that Apple charges so much more for their products - based on the idea that, by buying an Apple computer, you won't have to worry about stuff like this. Don't get me wrong... I think the hardware on Apple's laptops is quite nice... and may even justify the price. However, it seems to me that so many Apple users have drunk so much Apple KoolAid that they don't even think about it any more.
They install every update without even considering simply not installing it... then they're surprised when it doesn't work quite right.
I would also have to disagree with you on one thing.... Neither Apple nor Microsoft is "a major player in the home theater market".... because HTPCs in general aren't a major player. (Most people stream using the App already in their TV, or their Blu-Ray player, or using a little box like an Apple TV box or a Roku or a ChromeCast.)
As for desktop computers, or "PCs", Apple has had a little over 10% of the market for the last five years or so. That puts them as the #4 player in that market.... and the top three (Lenovo, HP, and Dell) are almost entirely Windows boxes (with a little Linux thrown in).
Personally, in this situation, I would probably wait a week or two for the fix. If it turns out to be something minor then it should get taken care of by then. And I would give it that long before undertaking to move a lot of files around or rearrange my entire setup.
Like Microsoft never broke anything with a Windows upgrade, HA! Why do Apple threads bring out the trolls and whingers. If Emotiva (and others) can’t accept that Apple is a major player in the home theatre market, just state it now and we’ll leave. Otherwise, stay out of threads where someone needs help and you have nothing productive to add beside, “use Windows ... it never breaks”. I repeat ... HA! KeithL , I’m not into making personal comments or quoting biblical things, but there’s something about throwing stones. To Boomzilla ’s question ... “the first week is too soon”, and I’d say the same thing about a major Windows update. That said, I think you made a reasonable evaluation that your music library being on an external disk should not pose a problem, that’s where mine is and I might have done the same thing. In fact I did something similar, thinking my 4K monitor should work after the upgrade, it ‘almost’ does, fortunately for me the workaround while I wait is a $13 USB-C to HDMI adapter. The truth is we’re geeks and we get excited and want to try the latest thing and that’s not always the best thing to do. Fortunately I didn’t upgrade my HT machine and my iTunes remote still works. As DYohn said if you want to blame someone, blame Apple, not Roon, if you like their product encourage them to fix it. Since you did choose to upgrade right away, and I’m guessing you have no rollback option? I think you have to start following the Roon and Apple threads, and hope for an update soon. The only easy option I could see should be having enough space on an internal drive to move your library there (or maybe a subset of it). I can say that my iTunes sync library did upgrade to the Music App correctly and it’s on an external drive, maybe that means the problem is not difficult to solve. The first thread I found Googling the issue indicated Roon is aware of the problem and working on a fix. |
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Post by DYohn on Oct 16, 2019 11:54:03 GMT -5
re: Windows updates breaking things. I work for a very large world-wide corporation with thousands of employees and hundreds of engineers. Our IT department JUST upgraded all workstations to Win 10 from Win 7 as they finally feel 10 is stable enough to not break certain things, and the proper patches for some of the very expensive engineering software that the company relies on have all now been released. How long has Win 10 been the default? I also think it has to do with Microsoft announcing the end of Win 7 support on Jan 1 2020, but I don't know that for a fact.
Upgrading just because there is an upgrade available is not always a wise course of action. My music server is 5 releases behind the current Fedora release, but it is stable and works great and there is no real reason to be on the upgrade bandwagon. When there is I'll make a change.
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Post by brubacca on Oct 16, 2019 12:44:47 GMT -5
Boomzilla,
First let me say I'm sorry you are having issues.
I worked for a few years as an IT guy and many in the industrial engineering space. Specifically with Allen Bradley (now Rockwell Automation) hardware and software. We always cringed when a new operating system was released. We knew not to update, but customers always took the plunge. Industrial software was always at least a year behind. The transition from DOS to Win95 was particularly bad. I see Roon Server the same way.
I never upgrade an OS until something forces me to do so. I recommend to others to do the samre.
I see Roon the same way. Its a small company and I wouldn't mess with my server until forced to.
Maybe its time to build a ROCK? (Roon Optimized Core Kit)
Personally I think Roon is awesome and hope it survives the rest of my audio life. I hope you get resolution and good luck.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 16, 2019 13:20:07 GMT -5
I recall an entertaining story about that from way back in the past.... although I forget the exact details.
It was during one of the older Windows updates... it might have been from Windows 98 to Windows 2000 or from Windows 2000 to Windows XP. Dell had recently announced that, starting on a certain date, all new computers they sold would be shipped with the newer version of Windows.
(They always offered an overlap - but they had just announced that the older version would no longer be available as an option.)
Well, to make a long story short, one of the government agencies who was one of their larger customers at the time informed them that: "Our IT department hadn't approved switching over to the new version of Windows because our software won't all run on it. Therefore, if Dell can no longer sell us the version we require, we won't be purchasing any new hardware from Dell." Oddly, both Dell and Microsoft agreed to extend availability of the older version of Windows to their customers who really wanted it (as I recall they extended it another six months or a year).
I don't personally use Roon.... However, if it was as important to me as it is to some other folks here, then I would expect them to choose a computer that works with Roon, rather than the other way around. (The price of the lifetime subscription, plus the effort to set it up, is a far larger investment than the particular box you're going to install it on.)
Especially since Roon really seems to prefer a dedicated server....
Boomzilla, First let me say I'm sorry you are having issues. I worked for a few years as an IT guy and many in the industrial engineering space. Specifically with Allen Bradley (now Rockwell Automation) hardware and software. We always cringed when a new operating system was released. We knew not to update, but customers always took the plunge. Industrial software was always at least a year behind. The transition from DOS to Win95 was particularly bad. I see Roon Server the same way. I never upgrade an OS until something forces me to do so. I recommend to others to do the samre. I see Roon the same way. Its a small company and I wouldn't mess with my server until forced to. Maybe its time to build a ROCK? (Roon Optimized Core Kit) Personally I think Roon is awesome and hope it survives the rest of my audio life. I hope you get resolution and good luck. |
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Post by KeithL on Oct 16, 2019 13:23:38 GMT -5
Perhaps the folks at Roon don't see an urgent need to update their software every time Apple decides they want to update theirs. It might be interesting to know what percentage of Roon's users run their Roon Core on an Apple computer.
And having done some research, I think all the "blame Apple" advice is bogus. Apple has offered developer packages for some time now, and many third-party apps were Catalina ready before the operating system was released. Therefore, Roon obviously had the option to prepare their software and apparently chose not to. Since I see no evidence to the contrary, I think my original "blame Roon" statement stands. Now I still could be wrong, but from what I've seen on the internet, my impression is that Apple made developer information available well in advance of the operating system release. Am I mistaken? Boom |
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Post by Loop 7 on Oct 16, 2019 13:57:04 GMT -5
From being somewhat active in the Roon community, the migration to R.O.C.K. seems very popular since a dedicated and very small computer has a custom Roon OS designed for nothing but Roon.
The performance alone, I found, was shocking.
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 16, 2019 15:09:09 GMT -5
...Out of curiosity, what format is your external music drive? Roon won't work with apple formatting, so my storage drive is in ExFAT. |
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Post by DYohn on Oct 16, 2019 18:48:14 GMT -5
...Out of curiosity, what format is your external music drive? Roon won't work with apple formatting, so my storage drive is in ExFAT. Uh, Roon can read HPFS and HFS+ formatted drives... what format were you trying to use? |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 16, 2019 19:20:01 GMT -5
Uh, Roon can read HPFS and HFS+ formatted drives... what format were you trying to use? Mac OS Extended Journaled. The server Mac identified and read it fine, but Roon wouldn't. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 16, 2019 22:19:33 GMT -5
... I would also have to disagree with you on one thing.... Neither Apple nor Microsoft is "a major player in the home theater market".... because HTPCs in general aren't a major player. (Most people stream using the App already in their TV, or their Blu-Ray player, or using a little box like an Apple TV box or a Roku or a ChromeCast.)
As for desktop computers, or "PCs", Apple has had a little over 10% of the market for the last five years or so. That puts them as the #4 player in that market.... and the top three (Lenovo, HP, and Dell) are almost entirely Windows boxes (with a little Linux thrown in). ... Like Microsoft never broke anything with a Windows upgrade, HA! Why do Apple threads bring out the trolls and whingers. If Emotiva (and others) can’t accept that Apple is a major player in the home theatre market, just state it now and we’ll leave. Otherwise, stay out of threads where someone needs help and you have nothing productive to add beside, “use Windows ... it never breaks”. I repeat ... HA! KeithL , I’m not into making personal comments or quoting biblical things, but there’s something about throwing stones. ... I use iTunes and Apple TV as ‘major players’ in my home theatre / music system (and whether iTunes in running on Windows or macOS, it’s an Apple product); I have a feeling I’m not unique in this position. If you want to quibble about at what point these products become major players, then you continue to be antagonistic toward Apple users and an Emotiva customer’s freedom to choose them. I don’t understand anyone spending time in places they don’t want to promote The percentage of Apple computers in the market is also somewhat irrelevant, if say 5% of Windows users have home theatre systems, and 50% of macOS users have them, then they’re about equal in that respect (I made these numbers up, but hopefully you take my point) ... though I’m trying to be diplomatic, my ‘glass house’, stone throwing implication above did not refer to Microsoft. |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Oct 16, 2019 22:38:13 GMT -5
Uh, Roon can read HPFS and HFS+ formatted drives... what format were you trying to use? Mac OS Extended Journaled. The server Mac identified and read it fine, but Roon wouldn't. What? Roon doesn't read any File System. It's an application which issue open(), read(), write(), and close() commands. It's the underlaying OS — whichever OS you're using — which handles dealing with File System Formats, etc. Casey |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Oct 16, 2019 22:40:38 GMT -5
Uh, Roon can read HPFS and HFS+ formatted drives... what format were you trying to use? Mac OS Extended Journaled. The server Mac identified and read it fine, but Roon wouldn't. That makes no sense. Hmm I’ll look into it. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 16, 2019 22:47:22 GMT -5
I think this is an artifact of the OS - not the Roon. Happened only after the Catalina upgrade...
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Post by DYohn on Oct 16, 2019 22:50:19 GMT -5
I think this is an artifact of the OS - not the Roon. Happened only after the Catalina upgrade... Oh so it was only after you upgraded? Ok then that does make sense. As has been said, it’s not Roon causing your problem. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 17, 2019 0:25:09 GMT -5
I think this is an artifact of the OS - not the Roon. Happened only after the Catalina upgrade... So now I'm confused, were you using ExFat before the Catalina upgrade? and is your disk still formatted that way now (that doesn't work with Roon)? When did you try Mac OS Extended? |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 17, 2019 6:04:45 GMT -5
So now I'm confused, were you using ExFat before the Catalina upgrade? and is your disk still formatted that way now (that doesn't work with Roon)? When did you try Mac OS Extended? Almost coincidentally with the OS-X Catalina upgrade, I had an external USB drive that seemed to be in its initial stages of failure. Sometimes it wouldn't mount properly; sometimes Disk Utility would declare it to be fine, and other times not. That drive had Ex-FAT format. So I had another blank drive with OS-X Extended Journaled format on it. I successfully transferred the data from the failing drive to the blank one, and verified that the new drive was usable by looking at the contents with Finder. Then, before checking that Roon could see the new data drive, I switched operating systems to OSX-Catalina. I then checked each of my applications, either updating them or deleting them. Once I thought I had my ducks in a row, I mounted the new data drive, verified that Roon had the latest version, and got ready to hear some music. Once Roon was running and verified, I went to Preferences and pointed Roon at my new drive. I got the message "Error Loading Folder - Unauthorized." After some Googling, I found one post somewhere saying that Roon didn't use OS-X Extended Journaled discs. So I reformatted my new drive with Ex-FAT and then transferred all data from the old drive to the new once again. After the transfer, I verified the new disc with Disk Utility and then, after rebooting the computer, started Roon again. Same result - "Error Loading Folder - Unauthorized." Back to Google, where I finally learned that this is a known Roon / Catalina issue, and that until Roon fixes their software, my music library is useless. Thus my original post here. And then, not unexpectedly, I got razzed - Buy a Windows machine! Blame Apple! Blame yourself! - YOU'VE done something stupid (installed an OS update) Well, there's plenty of blame to go around: Apple is at fault for not contacting EVERY app seller for their OS and providing sufficient tech support in advance so that such issues didn't occur. Roon is at fault for not contacting Apple and getting the Catalina development kit in advance of the OS release (it wasn't exactly a secret that the OS was coming). I'm at fault for not waiting for a month or however long it takes for Roon to offer a "Catalina-compatible" version of Roon. So thank you for your advice, it IS appreciated whether wrong or right. I understand that not everyone is an expert on the specific and obscure question that I asked, but you're trying to help, and I really appreciate it. In general, you've given better advice than I found via my first half-hour of Google research (as I expected that you would). One of the best suggestions I found here was to consider a Roon-Specific Linux box that is optimized for Roon and performs no other functions. Roon offers their own or I can build one from readily-available parts (though without the Roon-audio-optimization that Roon claims for their own server). These are options I need to research in greater detail. Cordially - Boomzilla |
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