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Post by wilburthegoose on Oct 17, 2019 7:11:32 GMT -5
Or - if you want to save some money - just get a relatively cheap Windows 10 desktop PC. Load it with memory (cheap these days), load Roon Core, and be done with it.
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Post by brubacca on Oct 17, 2019 7:26:07 GMT -5
Boomzilla,
Sorry if I was dumping on you. Just trying to give some advise for next time. I've been following your journey a long time now and know how frustrating it is when you just want to listen to some friggin music.
There is a seller on Amazon selling NUCi8i5 units for only $275. They had like 20 when I looked yesterday. Looks to be a good start. Also Small Green Computer has a product called SonicTransporter i5. Its less expensive than Roon Nucleus. Of coarse now we are spending $800-$1,000 to be able to use $500 software. Also QNAP nas company has several NAS products that can run Roon. Thinking this could be dual function if you don't alreaxy have a NAS.. (Again I'm spending your money).
Is that unauthorized comment from Roon a permissions thing? Can you set to all read/write for the drive/folder structure? Sorry I don't know how MAC works.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Oct 17, 2019 9:57:03 GMT -5
You don't have to do a "Roon-specific Linux box." Any PC that is 64-bit compatible can be turned into a music server. If you need help let me know.
As to your issue: the fault is with Apple.
And by the way, I made the same fundamental mistake as you more than once: something needs to be changed so why not change everything? The lesson is 1) never change a running system, and 2) one change at a time.
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 17, 2019 10:17:49 GMT -5
...Is that unauthorized comment from Roon a permissions thing? Can you set to all read/write for the drive/folder structure? Sorry I don't know how MAC works. A good guess, but I've been through sharing, permissions, security, etc. multiple times now without success. Roon has permission for EVERYTHING on this machine now and it still won't see the HDD. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 17, 2019 10:20:29 GMT -5
...Any PC that is 64-bit compatible can be turned into a music server. If you need help let me know...The lesson is 1) never change a running system, and 2) one change at a time. Thanks, David. In fact, I do have a HP laptop laying around with Windows 10 on it (GASP!). It does nothing most of the time, so "music server" might well be the right choice for it... |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Oct 17, 2019 16:19:07 GMT -5
...Any PC that is 64-bit compatible can be turned into a music server. If you need help let me know...The lesson is 1) never change a running system, and 2) one change at a time. Thanks, David. In fact, I do have a HP laptop laying around with Windows 10 on it (GASP!). It does nothing most of the time, so "music server" might well be the right choice for it... I'm not a huge fan of laptop running 24/7 or of Windows 10 as server software, but if it was my only choice I'd reformat as a Linux machine, install Roon Server and be done. |
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Post by brubacca on Oct 17, 2019 17:19:07 GMT -5
I use OpenMediaVault then installed Roon Server. There were a couple hurdles to cross. If I had to do again, I'd probably run Ubuntu Server an install Roon Server on that.
DYohn- What is your roon server config?
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Oct 17, 2019 17:46:03 GMT -5
DYohn- What is your roon server config? I built a platform a few years ago using an MSI MB, AMD 5350 Athlon with passive cooling, Corsair silent P/S, 16Gb RAM, a 100Gb SSD for the OS and four X 2Tb SSD for media. It runs Fedora 25 and Roon Server. Fast and silent. I may update the OS someday but not until I have issues. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Oct 17, 2019 17:59:06 GMT -5
For someone not Linux-savvy, you can repurpose nearly any old machine by downloading the freeware Vortexbox OS - which is based on Fedora and creates a light media server platform complete with a nice UI, backup routines and disc-ripping built in, and some automated drive assignment routines to make it easier to install. It's what I was using before I decided to strip down to just a base Fedora implementation. Vortexbox comes with Logitech Media Server pre-installed, but I will be happy to share the few Fedora commands needed to disable that and install Roon Server instead.
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Post by novisnick on Oct 17, 2019 18:05:24 GMT -5
My Roon server is a dedicated 2012 Mac Mini, it’s build for music only. Roon and external hard drives are connected to it. I only upgrade the Mac when it’s mandatory and a moth or two after all the little (or big) Problems’s are solved. I use Roon and my digital system when I like.
Upgrading to new software, “it’s new & improved”, there is no such thing. Always let the other guy be the guinea pig.
one other old adage, “ if it’s not broken “, y’all know the rest.
I hope the wait isn’t too long. 🙏
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Oct 17, 2019 20:38:24 GMT -5
So now I'm confused, were you using ExFat before the Catalina upgrade? and is your disk still formatted that way now (that doesn't work with Roon)? When did you try Mac OS Extended? Almost coincidentally with the OS-X Catalina upgrade, I had an external USB drive that seemed to be in its initial stages of failure. Sometimes it wouldn't mount properly; sometimes Disk Utility would declare it to be fine, and other times not. That drive had Ex-FAT format. So I had another blank drive with OS-X Extended Journaled format on it. I successfully transferred the data from the failing drive to the blank one, and verified that the new drive was usable by looking at the contents with Finder. So, out of curiosity, what is the external drive connected to? A Mac computer or a router? I had an odd issue come up recently when my NAS that had been connected to my router for a long time suddenly could not be seen by anything on my network. I was afraid the drive had died, but I connected it to my PC and it worked fine. It turned out I had a router issue. After talking to Asus, I was about to factory reset my router but didn't have the time to mess with it. When I finally did, I tried connecting another HD to the router (a different one than the first), and it worked. I thought "super!", and decided to take the opportunity to start using a new HD (larger, faster, able to leap tall buildings...). The Asus router was unable to mount the new drive. I tried many times, googles lots of things, and nothing. I could not ever get it to mount the drive. Each time I tried, it would try for a while, and the my router would say "I've had enough" and shut down all wifi and even hard-wire pass through and go into restart mode. I have not been able to figure out why, but I went back to my original HD and all is good. I decided to keep it as my primary drive and use the new one as a backup drive. I still don't know why the Asus won't mount the new drive...problem w/Asus or...? Who knows...but I am running again. And, I don't have time to mess with it right now. Mark |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 18, 2019 10:36:05 GMT -5
If you haven't done so already already you should check out Amazon's new CD-quality streaming. (Ignore the fact that they refer to CD quality as "HD". They do have a good selection of CD quality and real HD content - and the streaming itself seems very solid.)
I do have options. I already own the past 15 versions of jRiver, and I also get a free copy of Apple's Music. I can start either of them, let them index my outboard storage drive, and be up and running again. I've also just about decided (after trying it for six months or so) that I don't really need TIDAL. Yes, they have a few things that I like but I find that I'm seldom using them. I also listen to some (maybe a lot?) of music that TIDAL just doesn't carry, so replacing my storage drives with TIDAL still isn't an option. I understand that many really like TIDAL, but based on my usage, I think I'm not one of them. Boom |
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Post by KeithL on Oct 18, 2019 11:10:23 GMT -5
Boom,
I would not say that what happened is exactly your fault - and I'm afraid I would place most of the blame with Apple. It is arrogant on their part to make a change to their operating system that will "break stuff" - and simply assume that every one else will update their stuff to accommodate that change. (And, yes, Microsoft is quite often just as bad in that regard. Remember how many people refused to upgrade from Windows 7 to Windows 8 for a variety of reasons... including that one.)
However, when making changes to their O/S that could reasonably have caused stuff to stop working:
- they could and should have warned their customers that updating might cause eproblems
- they could have offered some way for you to to test whether the new version would work with all your current stuff BEFORE you installed it (I seem to recall Microsoft offering a utility you could run that told you if your computer and hardware would work with the upgraded version.) - they could have offered some sort of "compatibility mode" that would allow you to use your computer with older hardware or software
HOWEVER, I would point out that error messages, on both Apple and Windows computers, are often wrong or misleading. Odds are the problem is not actually "a permissions problem" but simply that Roon is now unable to access the drive because the O/S is reporting it as "unavailable". (Unfortunately this means that you're probably banging your head against a wall on that until and unless Apple and Roon collectively provide a fix... )
I should also point out that Roon does get rather involved in things at a lower level than many other software vendors... For example, they have their own RAAT communication protocol... While this offers them more opportunity to optimize things... It does also offer more opportunities for things to go wrong when something changes... (Which is one more reason to set up or purchase a dedicated computer for use with Roon...... which you can isolate from changes that may potentially break something.)
This is not at all uncommon with networked devices... and especially if you mix Apple, Windows, and Linux...
Here at Emotiva, we use both, and we have several NAS devices and other network-shared devices... (And, if you didn't know, there are several different standards for sharing drives and data across a network.) Some of our NAS devices are accessible to only Windows computers; some are only visible to Apple computers; and some are usable by both. Without getting into any discussions about which is better - once you have a system like this working, changing ANYTHING significant, unless absolutely necessary, is usually worth avoiding if at all possible.
(Which is why you're better off setting something like Roon up on its own computer which you can isolate from updates and changes - at least to a degree.)
...Is that unauthorized comment from Roon a permissions thing? Can you set to all read/write for the drive/folder structure? Sorry I don't know how MAC works. A good guess, but I've been through sharing, permissions, security, etc. multiple times now without success. Roon has permission for EVERYTHING on this machine now and it still won't see the HDD. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 18, 2019 12:14:33 GMT -5
Hi KeithL - Some good points - 1. This might not be happening IF one used a dedicated machine for Roon. However, even the dedicated machine would need OS updates occasionally. The dedicated machine will NOT be an isolated server. As you add music to the library, the machine will need internet access to get metadata and artwork. So right there, the server has exposure to all the vicissitudes of internet life. The OS updates aren't done for fun. From Apple's perspective, particularly, there is no charge for OS updates, so all their development work is intended to (in priority order): a) Protect the hardware and software from malware, viri, and hijacking b) Increase the hardware efficiency through code optimization c) Provide better user interfaces and greater functionality So even a dedicated music server machine needs OS updates if it is to be connected to the internet. 2. The "blame Apple" philosophy is not supported by facts. Apple has offered developer kits for their new OSs every single time they've done an update. The kits are available to developers on request. The vast majority of software on my computer was "Catalina-ready" long before the OS was released to the public. Other software developers availed themselves of the opportunity to make their software compatible prior to the OS release. Roon didn't. What makes Roon's failure particularly egregious is: a) Roon is charging their customers for the use of their services. It isn't like the customers bought the software and now own it themselves. Roon is charging its customers for the amount of TIME that the customer actually uses Roon. But now, the software is broken and unusable. Yet Roon continues to charge as if their software still worked. I call foul! b) Roon had the opportunity to prevent all this outcry. All they had to do was to notify their Apple customers via an email that Roon was not yet compatible with Catalina, and that if the customer wanted their Roon install to continue working (with outboard drives) then the customer needed to delay installing Catalina until Roon could provide a fix. Roon sent no such notification to their customers. Now customers who had no warning have installed Catalina and their expensive Roon players no longer work. "Reverting" to Mojave after installing Catalina is a full day's work, and even then, there is a high probability of other issues occurring. c) Before this is over, I'm predicting a class-action suit that may well be the straw that breaks the Roon-camel's back. And Roon got this grief the old fashioned way - they earned it. So give up on the bigoted "blame Apple" rhetoric. Enough, already (not focused on you, exclusively, Keith). And don't construe what I'm saying as Microsoft bashing, either. I concede that Windows is just as good an operating system as Apple's. Windows has advantages in some areas, Apple in others. Depending on what is important to you, I can see preferring either. But this isn't a Republican / Democrat issue (as some would like it to be) - it's just what company the user happens to be working with. And I'm also about fed up with attacking the user, as if user ignorance is somehow the root cause of any problem that occurs. The majority of computer users install updates promptly when they are available. In fact, Windows 10 seems to install them whenever Microsoft chooses, not when the user wants to. Yes, this can be overridden, but for the majority of users, they don't change the defaults. There are good reasons to install updates promptly, but there are also potential issues with doing so. Don't try to use this caveat as a loop to go back to blaming Microsoft or Apple either. As I said earlier, prior to updates both companies make information available to developers. If you're selling software for someone else's OS platform, then it's YOUR responsibility, as a software vendor, to make sure your software stays compatible. It isn't the OS vendor's responsibility to make their OS compatible with the thousands of programs that that might be run. Now you're welcome to disagree with me, but don't shoot the messenger. These are the facts. Boomzilla |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Oct 18, 2019 13:47:51 GMT -5
It's hard for me to agree on your logic for placing blame on Roon. A simple Google search shows that even things basic to Apple (like iPhone sync and Apple Mail) are not working. If Apple can't even make basic tools linked directly to them work with the new OS, how could any outsider be expected to ensure their product works with Catalina.
It seems like Apple is to blame for launching a very flawed OS.
Mark
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Post by DYohn on Oct 18, 2019 14:00:29 GMT -5
Boom, you've been anti-Roon since you first started talking about them so your attitude does not surprise me. However you do remain, sir, simply wrong.
By the way my dedicated music server has been running the same OS since 2017 without updates and without any issues, viruses, malware or other intrusions, and it is running connected to the Internet 24/7.
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Post by SteveH on Oct 18, 2019 16:05:27 GMT -5
Boom, you've been anti-Roon since you first started talking about them so your attitude does not surprise me. However you do remain, sir, simply wrong. By the way my dedicated music server has been running the same OS since 2017 without updates and without any issues, viruses, malware or other intrusions, and it is running connected to the Internet 24/7. I have been wanting Roon for some time now and perused many different forums for information. The forums collectively recommend a dedicated device for the Roon Core. I bought a QNAP NAS and so far so good. I am not an IT guy, so it took three late nights after work to get the NAS, Roon Core and the Bluesound DAC to talk to each other, but now it has been smooth sailing. It is just like I envisioned in my mind's eye, except for the thirty foot Ethernet cables running down the hallway. I have to wait for the Florida heat to subside so I can run the Ethernet cables through the attic. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 18, 2019 18:18:58 GMT -5
Well, it's obvious that I won't change your minds, and equally obvious that you won't change mine. I still respect your opinions (VERY highly), and I also thank you for your advice (even though I'm not yet ready to try it). I'll accept the fact that I may be wrong, and you right whether or not you care to reciprocate. At this point, I'm taking a "let's see what happens" stance. I'm convinced that Roon (when it's working properly) is a better music program than jRiver (based on the way that I use each of the programs), but I can see how others (and I have many friends in the jRiver camp) could conclude the opposite. I will note that those friends of mine who favor jRiver all (without exception) connect their server computers directly to their DACs via USB and eschew Ethernet streaming.
My game plan, as of now, is to give Apple and/or Roon until early next week to fix this problem. If they fail to do so, then I'll revert to jRiver on a Windows machine and leave well enough alone.
The Roon/Apple mashup seems to be an unstable one anyway.
Cordially - Boom
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Post by wilburthegoose on Oct 18, 2019 18:29:16 GMT -5
I use an old Asus M51AC desktop pc winning Windows 10 It’s not a Roon dedicated machine, and it works 100% Of the time. I think I paid around $550 for it 4 years ago.
I put a bunch of cheap memory it (32Gb) and an SSD.
That’s all you need. And not a single Windows update has thrown any issues.
Friend, there’s an easy path to happiness and a hard path. I always choose the easy path.
PS. I’ve only been a very senior IT professional for about 40 years. And I hold one of the worlds foremost InfoSec certifications. This isn’t a hobby for me.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Oct 18, 2019 19:20:06 GMT -5
I will note that those friends of mine who favor jRiver all (without exception) connect their server computers directly to their DACs via USB and eschew Ethernet streaming. I also found this to be a must when I used jRiver. In fact, it's what led me to drop it. While I could get it to work via DLNA, it was hard to set up, AND it absolutely would not allow me to play Tidal via DLNA - despite some very clear promises on their site. My game plan, as of now, is to give Apple and/or Roon until early next week to fix this problem. If they fail to do so, then I'll revert to jRiver on a Windows machine and leave well enough alone. I think it's reasonable to give them a week or so to sort out the issues, but if you do make a change and you have a Windows machine - why not make the Windows machine the Roon Core and keep using Roon? I find Roon to be far superior in so many ways to jRiver. I only use jRiver for ripping (which is rare for me these days) because I find it a PITA to use as a media player. Mark |
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