XPA-2 Gen 2 or XPA-1 Gen 2

[jdmusante]

Hello,

I’ve been reading a bunch of the old threads looking for opinions but thought I’d solicit the current day opinions on this subject. Most of what I’ve found isn’t recent.

I’ve been thinking about upgrading to monoblocks for a while now and I have an opportunity to purchase a pair XPA-1 Gen 2 amps.

I’m currently running an XPA-2 Gen 2 for stereo, using an XMC-1 for my preamp, and my main speakers are Paradigm Signature S8s V1. My system is used for 85% 2 channel music/15% home theater.

Overall, I’m happy with my current set up but am wondering what people’s thoughts are on upgrading from the stereo amp to monoblocks ? Will I see an appreciable performance difference? Are the monos overkill for what I have?

Or, is there another amp I may be missing the boat on?

Thanks,

Jason

[davidl81]

Nov 13, 2019 15:52:20 GMT -5 jdmusante said:

Hello,

I’ve been reading a bunch of the old threads looking for opinions but thought I’d solicit the current day opinions on this subject. Most of what I’ve found isn’t recent.

I’ve been thinking about upgrading to monoblocks for a while now and I have an opportunity to purchase a pair XPA-1 Gen 2 amps.

I’m currently running an XPA-2 Gen 2 for stereo, using an XMC-1 for my preamp, and my main speakers are Paradigm Signature S8s V1. My system is used for 85% 2 channel music/15% home theater.

Overall, I’m happy with my current set up but am wondering what people’s thoughts are on upgrading from the stereo amp to monoblocks ? Will I see an appreciable performance difference? Are the monos overkill for what I have?

Or, is there another amp I may be missing the boat on?

Thanks,

Jason

I have a feeling that you are going to see a lot of support for the XPA-1's on here.  In reality are you going to see this huge difference?  That's hard to say, but one thing for sure is that the XPA-1's can power virtually any speaker you can think of.

[garbulky]

I have extensive experience with the XPA-1 gen 2. I also have had a healthy amount of expereince wit the XPA-2 gen 2 (and gen 1). Also in comparison I've heard the XPA-2 gen 3. (Also the XPA-1 L, PA-1, XPR-1, XPR-2 etc you get the idea)
I've also heard your speakers though I think it was a different version. Great speakers you have there.
First thing I'll tell you is that you are right to consider the XPA-1 gen 2 over the gen 3.

So here is the good news. The XPA-1 gen 2 is the BEST amp I have heard, period and I am so very glad that I've got it in my system. There is not a day that goes by that I don't consider myself fortunate to hear great music through these beasts. They do everything right and NOTHING wrong. Even better everything they do right they do really well. There's no mediocrity with this amp. It's just downright great.

And yes the XPA-1 gen 2 is an upgrade over the XPA-2 gen 2. Having said that.... it's a toss up if you can hear it. The XPA-2 gen 2 is a real beast of an amp and possesses most if not almost all the great qualities of the XPA-1 gen 2. So the improvements the XPA-1 gen 2 bring are very subtle. They sound slightly more immmersive and "real" in class A mode. But you aren't going to be able to say "that right there is what it's doing better." IF your setup is good enough to hear the difference then it will become apparent over time.

So basically the XPA-1 gen 2 upgrades over an already great stereo amp and the sweetness comes in class A mode but it's not a night and day difference. However if I didn't have copious amounts of room treatment, a lot of time adjusting the speakers just right etc I wouldn't have been able to tell any different.
So there you go. Yes it's an upgrade, but you may not hear it or you may hear it but either way it's subtle.
(And yes, I would do it but I also wouldn't be missing out if I didn't).

[Cogito]

I'm not sure what you're expectations would be by upgrading to monoblocks. Both the XPA-1 G2 and XPA-2 G2s are ruler flat across the spectrum, offer vanishingly low distortion and have similar topologies. Both provide enough juice to drive your speakers to deafening levels without breaking a sweat. I doubt that there would be any discernible audio benefit in the upgrade.

If bragging rights are what you are looking for, then monoblocks are the way to go.

[routlaw]

No offense to Cogito, but his assumptions are incorrect. Like Garbulky I also own the XPA-1 G2's and have compared them against my XPA-3 Gen2 which should be quite close in sound to the two channel version of these amps. The difference is palpable at least in my system. I can't imagine anyone not being able to tell the difference and quickly. Regarding the Class A switching its quite noticeable to me, more flesh on the bones, richer and more involving. Everyone I have tried this with hears the difference without hesitation. Lets not forget about the channel separation, independent power supplies, and yet more power per channel. All else being equal regardless of speakers I have yet to ever hear any speakers that did not improve in sound when more power (WPC) is added. Granted in some cases this makes no sense but I've heard time and again without fail. The problem with making a statement like this is, "all else being equal" and often things are not.

Its also worth pointing out, but unfortunately I can't remember where I read this, from what I understand Emotiva engineered the circuits for Class A/B transition considerably different than conventional A/B transitions but the jest of it IS the Class A setting has measurably less distortion, while the Class B measurably more. Perhaps Dan, Lonnie or Keith can expand on this. All that said I wouldn't go out on a limb and declare these the best amps alive heck there are people who think Emotiva makes dog meat electronics. I'm not one of them and am quite fond of their products. 

What I don't like about them? They are heavy, they are inefficient, they generate lots of heat especially in Class A mode and dare I say it they are not the quietest amps in existence. Some amps can be near dead silent at the speakers the XPA-1 Gen 2 are not and once you flip the Clas A the noise rises incrementally. The noise is not obnoxious, far from it, but you can hear it 2-3 feet away maybe more. I don't notice it from the listening position though.

I do think Garbulky is a bit too harsh in his criticisms of the XPA DR-1's though. Did I get that nomenclature correct? I've not heard them yet but would love to and its my guess they might give the XPA-1 Gen2 a run for their money, perhaps even outperform them even without the Class A switch.

Hope this helps.

[Cogito]

Nov 13, 2019 19:40:34 GMT -5 routlaw said:

No offense to Cogito, but his assumptions are incorrect. Like Garbulky I also own the XPA-1 G2's and have compared them against my XPA-3 Gen2 which should be quite close in sound to the two channel version of these amps. The difference is palpable at least in my system. I can't imagine anyone not being able to tell the difference and quickly. Regarding the Class A switching its quite noticeable to me, more flesh on the bones, richer and more involving. Everyone I have tried this with hears the difference without hesitation. Lets not forget about the channel separation, independent power supplies, and yet more power per channel. All else being equal regardless of speakers I have yet to ever hear any speakers that did not improve in sound when more power (WPC) is added. Granted in some cases this makes no sense but I've heard time and again without fail. The problem with making a statement like this is, "all else being equal" and often things are not.

Its also worth pointing out, but unfortunately I can't remember where I read this, from what I understand Emotiva engineered the circuits for Class A/B transition considerably different than conventional A/B transitions but the jest of it IS the Class A setting has measurably less distortion, while the Class B measurably more. Perhaps Dan, Lonnie or Keith can expand on this. All that said I wouldn't go out on a limb and declare these the best amps alive heck there are people who think Emotiva makes dog meat electronics. I'm not one of them and am quite fond of their products. 

What I don't like about them? They are heavy, they are inefficient, they generate lots of heat especially in Class A mode and dare I say it they are not the quietest amps in existence. Some amps can be near dead silent at the speakers the XPA-1 Gen 2 are not and once you flip the Clas A the noise rises incrementally. The noise is not obnoxious, far from it, but you can hear it 2-3 feet away maybe more. I don't notice it from the listening position though.

I do think Garbulky is a bit too harsh in his criticisms of the XPA DR-1's though. Did I get that nomenclature correct? I've not heard them yet but would love to and its my guess they might give the XPA-1 Gen2 a run for their money, perhaps even outperform them even without the Class A switch.

Hope this helps.

With all due respect, the XPA-2 G2 has more than enough power to roast his speakers. At his speaker's sensitivity of 91 dB, they would be playing at a painful 115 dB at their maximum rated input of 250 watts. At the 8 Ohm impedance (The speakers rated impedance), the XPA-2 G2 puts out over 300 watts/ch. Of course, real-world listening levels require FAR FAR less power, so I can't understand how having an extra couple hundred watts would improve things. Even if he could drive his speakers with the extra power, they'd only play 2 dB louder compared to the XPA-2 G2.


So, my advise to the OP, based upon 40 years in the hobby, using logic, ignoring the hype and most importantly, using my ears, I'd suggest you stick with the XPA-2 G2 and save your money.

[routlaw]

You’re correct all amplifiers sound identical. In the meantime I’ll stick with what I’ve heard.

[garbulky]

Nov 13, 2019 19:40:34 GMT -5 routlaw said:

No offense to Cogito, but his assumptions are incorrect. Like Garbulky I also own the XPA-1 G2's and have compared them against my XPA-3 Gen2 which should be quite close in sound to the two channel version of these amps. The difference is palpable at least in my system. I can't imagine anyone not being able to tell the difference and quickly. Regarding the Class A switching its quite noticeable to me, more flesh on the bones, richer and more involving. Everyone I have tried this with hears the difference without hesitation. Lets not forget about the channel separation, independent power supplies, and yet more power per channel. All else being equal regardless of speakers I have yet to ever hear any speakers that did not improve in sound when more power (WPC) is added. Granted in some cases this makes no sense but I've heard time and again without fail. The problem with making a statement like this is, "all else being equal" and often things are not.

Its also worth pointing out, but unfortunately I can't remember where I read this, from what I understand Emotiva engineered the circuits for Class A/B transition considerably different than conventional A/B transitions but the jest of it IS the Class A setting has measurably less distortion, while the Class B measurably more. Perhaps Dan, Lonnie or Keith can expand on this. All that said I wouldn't go out on a limb and declare these the best amps alive heck there are people who think Emotiva makes dog meat electronics. I'm not one of them and am quite fond of their products. 

What I don't like about them? They are heavy, they are inefficient, they generate lots of heat especially in Class A mode and dare I say it they are not the quietest amps in existence. Some amps can be near dead silent at the speakers the XPA-1 Gen 2 are not and once you flip the Clas A the noise rises incrementally. The noise is not obnoxious, far from it, but you can hear it 2-3 feet away maybe more. I don't notice it from the listening position though.

I do think Garbulky is a bit too harsh in his criticisms of the XPA DR-1's though. Did I get that nomenclature correct? I've not heard them yet but would love to and its my guess they might give the XPA-1 Gen2 a run for their money, perhaps even outperform them even without the Class A switch.

Hope this helps.

Sorry I think I may have given the wrong impressions. I have not heard the XPA DR-1 amplifiers and have no idea what they sound like. I've heard the XPA-2 gen 3 amps (among a whole host of other emotiva amps - mainly from previous generations).

When I say the XPA-1 gen 2 is the best amp I have heard period, I stress on the words " that I have heard". There's all kinds of amazing amps out there but I haven't heard them. Out of the ones I've heard, this is the best amp imo. There are some that get very close. The Emotiva PA-1's are also in the best category. I call them the XPA-1 butterfly. They have tremendous detail and speed and sound like an XPA-1 with a "light touch" in the treble and a hint less slam in the bass. Perhaps when fully stressed the XPA-1 would probably outclass them in the power department as they have a fraction of the power of the big boy. But I never heard them run out of steam in my small room. Out of everything the PA-1 probably really tempted me because its price would allow me to do quad monoblocks at a fraction of the weight and power requirements. It still temps me and I will probably end up buying them for a nice airmotiv secondary system.

No i'm not leaving out the XPR-1 which I had heard - I simply did not have enough time to make a good enough decision.

There was another contender for best sound - a completely unlikely 7 watt modified diy Heathkit monoblock tube amp which was colored, had some faint buzz, but utterly fabulous. At its best it did things the XPA-1 (with its neutral sound) simply couldn't do. But I couldn't call it the best because of its limitations. But nevertheless it was very good and an intense experience everytime I hear it.

But....
I've heard a few amplifiers that are more expensive than the XPA-1 gen 2 and also have good reputations. Some of them cost between 15 to $30,000 (yes Macintosh is included here though I won't say where it placed). Though most of them sound between not shabby to pretty darn good, none of them beat the XPA-1 gen 2 and most didn't come close. None of these expensive amps ever had me thinking I need to give up my XPA-1 gen 2. So having listened to some good reputable amps, I can tell you that the XPA-1 gen 2's are indeed hard to beat (as far as I have heard).

[Gary Cook]

It's pretty simple actually;
1. XPA-1's are monobloc power amps.
2. XPA-2's are stereo power amps.
3. XPA-1's are fully balanced, discrete and quad differential.
4. XPA-2's are not fully balanced, discrete or quad differential.
5. Being monoblocks XPA-1's can take advantage of long balanced XLR interconnects and short speaker cables.
6. Being stereo amplifiers XPA-2's can not take advantage of long balanced XLR interconnects and short speaker cables.
7. Connecting an XPA-1 to a fully balanced, discrete and quad differential pre amp results in a complete circuit that is fully balanced, discrete and quad differential
8. XPA-2's can't do that no matter what they are connected to.
9. XPA-1's have their own power supply, in their own cases, they share nothing
10. An XPA-2 shares its power supply across both channels and the case.
11. Did I mention that XPA-1's are monoblocks and therefore earn the owner the right to be invited to be a member of the Secret Monoblock Society.
12 XPA-2's owners are not so lucky.


Cheers
Gary

[routlaw]

Gary, you've hit the nail on the head with this list.

[routlaw]

"Sorry I think I may have given the wrong impressions. I have not heard the XPA DR-1 amplifiers and have no idea what they sound like. I've heard the XPA-2 gen 3 amps (among a whole host of other emotiva amps - mainly from previous generations)."

Whoops, my bad, could have sworn in other post you've mentioned the DR-1's did not perform as well as the XPA-1 Gen 2's. Apologies for the poor reading comprehension on my part.

[rbk123]

Nov 13, 2019 19:40:34 GMT -5 routlaw said:

No offense to Cogito, but his assumptions are incorrect. Like Garbulky I also own the XPA-1 G2's and have compared them against my XPA-3 Gen2 which should be quite close in sound to the two channel version of these amps. The difference is palpable at least in my system.

I thought I recall Gar mentioning there is a sizeable difference between the XPA-2 and the XPA-3, in the internals; perhaps he can opine.

I do find it humorous that Cogito assuming the XPA-2 is similar to the XPA-1 is wrong, however routlaw assuming the XPA-3 is similar to the XPA-2 is right.

[garbulky]

Nov 14, 2019 11:35:21 GMT -5 rbk123 said:

Nov 13, 2019 19:40:34 GMT -5 routlaw said:

No offense to Cogito, but his assumptions are incorrect. Like Garbulky I also own the XPA-1 G2's and have compared them against my XPA-3 Gen2 which should be quite close in sound to the two channel version of these amps. The difference is palpable at least in my system.

I thought I recall Gar mentioning there is a sizeable difference between the XPA-2 and the XPA-3, in the internals; perhaps he can opine.

I do find it humorous that Cogito assuming the XPA-2 is similar to the XPA-1 is wrong, however routlaw assuming the XPA-3 is similar to the XPA-2 is right.

You mean the gen 2 and gen 3 right? I’ll respond later when I get a chance

[rbk123]

Nov 14, 2019 11:42:21 GMT -5 garbulky said:

You mean the gen 2 and gen 3 right? I’ll respond later when I get a chance

No, both Gen 2's. routlaw has an XPA-3 Gen 2 and the OP has an XPA-2 Gen 2. routlaw believes his XPA-3 G2 should sound similar to the OP's XPA-2 G2, which may be true but I seem to recall you once saying how the internals are pretty different (but I could be remembering incorrectly).

[KeithL]

The XPA-1 Gen2 is a fully differential amplifier - which uses two output modules in a bridged configuration.

When operated in stereo, the XPA-2 is not fully differential, so has a slightly different set of distortion spectra.

(I'm not going to get into the discussion about how audible that is in a particular situation.)

When operated in a bridged configuration, an older XPA-2 will also be fully differential, and so will be more like an XPA-1.

However, because the XPA-1 is optimized to be used that way, while the XPA-2 is optimized for stereo operation, the rail voltages and certain other details are different.

That's why we really don't recommend that you connect a bridged XPA-2 to loads below 8 Ohms.

(An XPA-1 runs great with 4 Ohm speakers; a bridged XPA-2 would run much warmer, and might even eventually overheat , if asked to play at very high levels into a 4 Ohm load.)

(In a balanced amplifier, each amplifier module sees half of the load impedance, so, in an XPA-1 Gen2, each module is actually optimized to run into loads as low as 2 Ohms, while each module in an XPA-2 is optimized for a 4 Ohm load.)

Nov 14, 2019 11:42:21 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Nov 14, 2019 11:35:21 GMT -5 rbk123 said:

I thought I recall Gar mentioning there is a sizeable difference between the XPA-2 and the XPA-3, in the internals; perhaps he can opine.

I do find it humorous that Cogito assuming the XPA-2 is similar to the XPA-1 is wrong, however routlaw assuming the XPA-3 is similar to the XPA-2 is right.

You mean the gen 2 and gen 3 right? I’ll respond later when I get a chance

[KeithL]

The amplifier modules and the power supplies in each are a bit different.

The XPA Gen2 modules are purely Class A/B .

The XPA Gen3 modules are Class A/B, but with a Class H power supply topology (dual rails), and so are more like the amplifier modules in the XPR amps.

The XPA Gen2 amps used an unregulated linear power supply.

The XPA Gen3 use a fully regulated switch mode power supply.

As a broad generalization....

Linear power supplies can deliver more dynamic power in proportion to their continuous power rating.

However, the SMPS we use in the XPA Gen3 amps is really large and powerful, so it has plenty of both to do the job.

And, under heavy load, a regulated power supply doesn't experience a drop in output voltage, or an increase in output noise, like a linear power supply inevitably does.

Nov 14, 2019 12:39:48 GMT -5 rbk123 said:

Nov 14, 2019 11:42:21 GMT -5 garbulky said:

You mean the gen 2 and gen 3 right? I’ll respond later when I get a chance

No, both Gen 2's. routlaw has an XPA-3 Gen 2 and the OP has an XPA-2 Gen 2. routlaw believes his XPA-3 G2 should sound similar to the OP's XPA-2 G2, which may be true but I seem to recall you once saying how the internals are pretty different (but I could be remembering incorrectly).

[Gary Cook]

Nov 14, 2019 5:13:21 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

It's pretty simple actually;
1. XPA-1's are monobloc power amps.
2. XPA-2's are stereo power amps.
3. XPA-1's are fully balanced, discrete and quad differential.
4. XPA-2's are not fully balanced, discrete or quad differential.
5. Being monoblocks XPA-1's can take advantage of long balanced XLR interconnects and short speaker cables.
6. Being stereo amplifiers XPA-2's can not take advantage of long balanced XLR interconnects and short speaker cables.
7. Connecting an XPA-1 to a fully balanced, discrete and quad differential pre amp results in a complete circuit that is fully balanced, discrete and quad differential
8. XPA-2's can't do that no matter what they are connected to.
9. XPA-1's have their own power supply, in their own cases, they share nothing
10. An XPA-2 shares its power supply across both channels and the case.
11. Did I mention that XPA-1's are monoblocks and therefore earn the owner the right to be invited to be a member of the Secret Monoblock Society.
12 XPA-2's owners are not so lucky.

I missed a couple;
13. XPA-1 Gen 2 can run up to 60 watts in pure Class A, front panel switchable.
14. XPA-2’s can’t, no switch.

Cheers
Gary

[brutiarti]

Don’t waste your time with the Gen3. I bought the DR1’s and they disappointed me. Bought Bryston monos and never looked back. If your electronics and speakers are really revealing I will go with the XPR’-1’s but the reliability can be an issue. If you have tubes or laid back speakers I will go with the Xpa-1’s gen2. If you wanna listen to the people that say that all amps sound the same get a Topping amplifier that fall in the wattage recommendation from your speaker manufacturer.

[tropicallutefisk]

Nov 14, 2019 14:16:06 GMT -5 brutiarti said:

Don’t waste your time with the Gen3. I bought the DR1’s and they disappointed me. Bought Bryston monos and never looked back. If your electronics and speakers are really revealing I will go with the XPR’-1’s but the reliability can be an issue. If you have tubes or laid back speakers I will go with the Xpa-1’s gen2. If you wanna listen to the people that say that all amps sound the same get a Topping amplifier that fall in the wattage recommendation from your speaker manufacturer.

Well good heavens I should hope your Brystons outperform the DR1s. They are how much more expensive? Something like almost 7Xs the cost of a DR1? I mean sure if I had $20,000 available I might go for them too.    

[routlaw]

Nov 14, 2019 14:16:06 GMT -5 brutiarti said:

Don’t waste your time with the Gen3. I bought the DR1’s and they disappointed me. Bought Bryston monos and never looked back. If your electronics and speakers are really revealing I will go with the XPR’-1’s but the reliability can be an issue. If you have tubes or laid back speakers I will go with the Xpa-1’s gen2. If you wanna listen to the people that say that all amps sound the same get a Topping amplifier that fall in the wattage recommendation from your speaker manufacturer.

JFTR, I was only being facetious when I said all amps sound the same or identical. Interesting you didn't like the DR-1's though.