RMC-1 Owners Advance Topic: EDID Analysis and Workarounds

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[mgbpuff]

The only work around I know is HDFury devices. I have the HDFury Diva and it will present 2 different unique EDIDs for two different video outputs plus an audio only EDID for a third. It also auto switches 4 sources and so it can be used to completely bypass the video of an AV receiver or pre-pro. You can have two 4K HDR feeds or one 4k HDR and one 1080p feed since it also downscales. RMC-1 will never have such functions.

[TDifEQ]

This thread is a technical discussion regarding RMC-1 EDID Handshaking Issues, Analysis and Workarounds. HDCP handshaking issues can also rear itself in these discussions … so it's fair game.

Wikipedia: Extended display identification data (EDID) is a data structure provided by a digital display to describe its capabilities to a video source (e.g. graphics card or set-top box). It is what enables a modern personal computer to know what kinds of monitors are connected to it. EDID is defined by a standard published by the Video Electronics Standards Association (VESA).

Wikipedia: High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection. High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) is a form of digital copy protection developed by Intel Corporation to prevent copying of digital, audio & video content as it travels across connections.

Lots of issues in sync'g Sink devices (TV/Projectors) with Source devices ( like blu ray players and streaming devices). Most of these are EDID handshaking related. Some may be HDCP related. HDfury makes many products to specifically address these issues ... so we'll start by discussing EDID workarounds using the Vertex2 with RMC-1 and TV/Projector. The first 3 posts are reserved for future use.

[TDifEQ]

There are 2 ways to control EDID going from the TV/Projector to the source through the RMC-1 using the Vertex2.



1. Vertex2 WorkAround1:  WA1 places the Vertex2 btwn source and RMC-1. Vertex2 acts like a "Master Sink" directly controlling the source device (i.e. OPPO203). Very useful for extreme problematic EDID issues involving RMC-1 (where the RMC-1 is in the handshaking signal path) or if one wants Vertex2 to act as a splitter … for example, to send OPPO203's main V/A output to both RMC-1 and to Radiance Pro.  For each movie, you'll have to define the EDID that will go to the TV or projector with a couple of clicks … it's that simple. I used Vertex2's automix to change the EDID with just a couple of clicks clicked for either "with DV" or "without DV" … simple … this was because I had 2 displays, a TV with DV and a Projector without DV.  RMC-1 output design could not do this without physically disconnecting the inactive display, as acknoledged by KeithL .



2. Vertex2 Workaround2:  Second, put the Vertex2 between the RMC-1 and display/Projector. The advantage to this is 2 fold. First, Vertex2, not RMC-1, does the switching between display or projector.  In this case, don't have to deal with the RMC-1's "Lowest Common Denominator" output design issues … meaning either the TV's EDID or the Projector's EDID is controlling the Source device, not both at the same time … both at the same time is the "Lowest Common Denominator" option … which is used when one wants both Projector and Display (usually with different capabilities) to be on at the same time.  Second, if one uses ARC feature from the TV, Vertex2 can send ARC audio from the TV to RMC-1 via HDMI.

[TDifEQ]

This is the Vertex2 Workaround 2 for placing the Vertex2 between the TV/Projector and RMC-1. Analysis will be in another post. Vertex2 Workaround 1 for placing the Vertex2 between Source and RMC-1 will be in another post.

Found a simple solution that works reliably with my system. It solves how to switch between TV and Projector such that the TV displays 4k Dolby Vision (DDTrueHD/ATMOS) and the JVC Projector displays 4k HDR (DDTrueHD/ATMOS) for the same 4K Dolby Vision movie (4k DV Hunter Killer). Only one display device is on at a time. For Vertex2, only use Automix to control EDID. Only Automix avoids all the quirks I ran into … and I've used Automix before with Vertex (not Vertex2) as a splitter between OPPO203 and RMC-1 and Radiance Pro devices … so its proven to work reliably there as well.

A. Config (9.1.6):

The configuration has a 4k DV TV and a 4k "No DV" Projector with OPPO203 playing disc movie 4K DV ATMOS Hunter Killer. Vertex2 is placed btwn RMC-1 and TV/Projector. The projector fiber cable run is 33ft (10M) … so I placed an HDfury Integral and Linker at the end of the long fiber cable run, near projector, because I'm guessing RMC-1's TX1 output does not behave well with long fiber cable runs … your situation might be ok … so don't worry about the Integral/Linker combination … but, you should be aware of this.

(disc)OPPO203/Main_V/A_Out ---> Input1/RMC-1
RMC-1/Out1 --->Input1/Vertex2/Out1 --->--->Input0/Integral/Out1 ---> Input1/Linker/Out1 ---> Input2/JVC600 Projector
RMC-1/Out2 --->Input0/Vertex2/Out0 --->Input1/LG_C8_77"_OLED

Cables:
---> = HDfury 18Mbps 6ft cbl
--->---> = Tributaries 18Mbps 33ft fiber cbl

B. Vertex2 Setup (very simple to do … time consuming to describe):

Vertex2 is a little quirky with RMC-1, but RMC-1 is very stable within this solution … in terms of passing EDID info reliably between tv/projector and source (OPPO203). Use Automix to control EDID when switching between TV and Projector (do not use custom … due to a Dolby Vision quirk where the Dolby Vision setting is preventing HDR from being used for the "non DV" projector.  It's an issue with OPPO203 in fully auto mode.  .  Using the Automix "remove DV" flag wakes up the OPPO203 and fixes that.  I'll post Vertex2 setup pics soon, but here's a written explanation of how to setup Vertex2.

1. Info Tab:


Fig 1.  Info Tab
Port Selector: TX0: 0-INPUT 0 and TX1: 1 – INPUT 1

2. EDID Tab:


Fig2.  EDID Tab … Setup for 4k "Non DV" Projector


Fig3.  EDID Tab:  Setup for 4k DV TV


Check Automix.
Algorithm: Max Audio, Max Video
Audio Flags: Check Full

HDR Flags for 4k DV TV: check HDR 10+
DV Flags for 4K DV TV: check DV Force LLDV
                            OR
HDR Flags for 4k "No DV" Projector: check HDR 10+
DV Flags for 4k "No DV" Projector: check DV Remove

Everything else is not checked.

3. Scaler Tab: Check No Scaling … that's all for this tab.

4. HDR/DV Tab: … ignore … just custom meta data stuff.

5. OSD Tab: … ignore

6. CEC/eARC Tab: DO NOT check "Enable CEC" and DO NOT check "Enable DD+/ATMOS over ARC"

7. Macros Tab: don't check anything here … ignore.

8. Config Tab: Note below under Vertex2 Control: "Reboot". You'll have to click this every time one finishes making changes to Vertex2 (as one selects either TV or projector ).


Fig4.  Config Tab: REBOOT location

C. Sequence:

Turn 4k "No DV" projector off before switching to 4k DV TV.
Turn 4k DV TV off before switching to 4k "No DV" Projector.

1. To watch 4K DV TV: Check Full Audio, HDR 10+ and DV Force LLDV boxes in EDID tab … nothing else checked. In Config Tab, click on "Reboot". In ten seconds a DV picture and ATMOS sound will be present.

2. To watch 4k "No DV" Projector: Check Full Audio, HDR 10+ and DV Remove boxes in EDID tab … nothing else checked. In Config Tab, click on "Reboot". In ten seconds a 4k HDR picture and ATMOS sound will be present.

Once one gets Vertex2 all setup, switching between TV and Projector only requires one to either activate "DV Force LLDV" or "remove DV" (according to the sequence above) … that's it … it is that simple.

D: 4k DV/HDR ATMOS Movie:

4K DV Hunter Killer, 2160p/24, 12bits, Dolby Vision, DD_True_HD/ATMOS

This is really simple to control, just have to try doing it. Let me know if you have questions.

[TDifEQ]

Vertex2 Analysis.

This post will be changing over the next 2 days as new items are added.

1.  The most important thing learned was OPPO203 plays a major role in NOT changing from 4k Dolby Vision to 4k HDR when the EDID from the 4k "Non DV" Projector tells the OPPO203 to do so. This was when Vertex2 was in EDID Custom Mode.  The RMC-1 does correctly pass this information from Vertex2 to OPPO203 … OPPO203 is just not listening or ignores it.  This quirk is solved by using the Automix flag: "DV Remove".   

2.  Within this configuration, RMC-1 seems to reliably pass EDID information between Vertex2 and OPPO203. 

3.  There is a sync'g issue everytime a change is made to Vertex2 or upon Vertex2 power up.  Vertex2 cmd "REBOOT" solves this … every time.

[mgbpuff]

Why not completely bypass all video from the RMC-1. Then RMC-1 HDMI handshaking is reduced to just the audio HDMI input. The DIVA is essentially a Vertex 2 plus a Linker on one output. Plus the Diva handles 4 inputs with auto control switching and 3 outputs (a 4K HDR DV, HDR10+, output (this output is 4k dedicated)); an second output downscales to a 2k display with the ability to convert HDR to SDR; and a third output which is audio only) Send the first output to your main 4K display, the second to your other 2K display, and the third (audio only) to the RMC-1. Auto mix need not be used but can be used for ease of set up if it gets you what you want. Otherwise both displays can be optimized for their max abilities and they can both be on. Handshaking is reduced to mostly source, Diva, and sink. The RMC-1 will probably never need to be updated if the version you have handles all of the audio codecs properly. HDFury is fantastic at reacting to any problems you may encounter with unusual sources and sinks and will even send you a unique software revision to correct you unique problem. They are indeed very good at this. The Diva is a video device and does not touch the audio, which is passed on to the RMC-1. Here are the features listed for the Diva -

HDMI 2.0 18 Gbps 600 Mhz UHD device. HDCP 2.2 compatible.
4 HDMI 2.0 inputs, 3 HDMI 2.0 outputs.
Main/First output can passthrough or upscale the video signal up to UHD (18 Gbps capable). 2nd output can downscale. It can carry 1080p SDR video + audio. The 3rd output is for audio only (video is black frame 720/1080p) and supports passthrough of all audio formats currently in existence. Remember: this is a video device, it does not touch the audio
Full HDR/HLG/LLDV/DV/HDR10+ support.
More advanced HDR fixing capabilities

TMDS switching for all inputs. Most devices send +5V on their outputs when they are active. But the ATV4K, for instance, does this even when it is switched off. Diva will use clever pixel clock frequencies analysis permanently running in the background and will auto-determine whenever any connected device is sending any valid signal
Full LAN control via the embedded and brand new HDFury webserver. The need for a dedicated computer with special driver to run configuration software or update is now a thing of the past! Only a device with a browser is required.
Diva will expose more scaling parameters than Vertex as the latter has memory constraints that have been reached.
It can do UHD HDR to 1080P SDR conversion
RS232, L/R stereo or Optical 5.1 output, IR TX, IR RX, IR sensor, IR window, OLED display and 4 buttons on the side allowing to enter/exit and perform change in the device system menu.
Optional purchases: lag tester and ambient light

Diva tone mapping:

It can do UHD HDR to 1080p SDR. It cannot do UHD HDR to UHD SDR

Note: If you have two 4k displays, then you would want the Vertex2, which provides two 4k outputs but can also downscale to 1080p on the second output. It can not do UHD HDR to HD SDR. It and the Diva have the same physical appearance.

[TDifEQ]

EDIT2: THIS SOLUTION PROVED LATER NOT TO WORK:

Was having 1.7 RMC-1 lock out with no audio issues with TiVO. Placed HDFury Linker between TiVO and RMC-1, set Linker to upscale all video to 4k and no more issues.

Did similiar setup back in FW 1.2 with excellent results.

Basically, the RMC-1 only sees 4k coming in and 4k going out. Now, RMC-1 is totally stable in my config.

EDIT: No go. Got RMC-1 to lock out and no audio by pausing TiVO for 30 min with Linker in place. I'll try with Vertex2 next.

[Casey Leedom]

So I take it that this thread is essentially all about the issues surrounding having two Outputs connected, right? The HDMI Lock On issue for the Inputs is completely separate?

Casey

[TDifEQ]

No. Any EDID issue whether from streaming, blu ray player or EDID Issues caused by RMC-1'S dual output design. I would think streaming issues would be the most popular.

This thread is about workarounds found or tried but failed ... not about posting EDID issues. That can be done in RMC-1 owner's thread. Focus is on solutions.

[TDifEQ]

EDIT: THIS DID NOT WORK. Finally failed after 2 days. Too bad.

Used Vertex2 btwn TiVO Bolt and RMC-1 with better results than using Linker. 2 days now with no issues with TiVO. Make sure Tx0 +5V Force and Tx1 +5V Force are turned on.

[TDifEQ]

Went back to FW 1.5 and used Vertex2 btwn TiVO Bolt and RMC-1. That has work now for 2 NFL games … with a lot of FF/REW and chnl switching. There was some kind a major EDID disconnect with 1.7 … probably because it was the first time EMO had common firmware among XMC-2, RMC-1L and RMC-1.

[MonsieurAl]

Hi, I gave up on the vertex² ... It worked for a while and at one point the RMC-1 disappeared from the Vertex² display and the sync problems started !
Now I connect the HDMI to the RMC-1 as I need it ... it's super practical !!!

[TDifEQ]

Update: watched 6 NFL football games with no issues with TiVO. This is with FW 1.5 and Vertex2 place btwn TiVO Bolt and RMC-1. Did a ton of FFwd/Rev and channel surfing. Looks like this works.

[TDifEQ]

Overview: 
Just got 1.7.6 from KeithL .  Ran 2 days of tests wrt audio drop issues for OPPO203 disc and TiVO bolt.  This is excellent firmware … passed nearly all tests.  I no longer need HDfury Vertex2 for stability in my TiVO config. anymore.  See config below. With OPPO FFWD, REV, PAGEFWD and PAGEREV, no audio drops.  The OPPO audio switching is nearly instantaneous … i.e. audio begins when video stops and plays. TiVO FFWD, REV, channel surfing, TickFWD and TickRev works with no audio drops.  With 1.7.6 tested, I'm in it for the long haul with EMO and RMC-1. Much thx to Lonnie and his development team.

Details:
1.7.6 passed nearly all audio drop tests (that failed before 1.7.6) with both TiVO Bolt and OPPO203 (disc movies only). For TiVO testing, this was for both with and without HDfury Vertex2 in place … located btwn TiVO and RMC-1. For TiVO, 2 NFL games and 8 programs were watched using FFWD, REV, channel switching and tick jumping (FFWD or REV with -> on remote). No issues with TiVO Bolt dropping audio anymore.

For OPPO203, all movies passed audio drop tests except HP#5. For some reason the OPPO went whacky with 4k Harry Potter Order of the Phoenix, but played all movies both before and after with no issues.  Just before dropping Audio in HP#5, sound format was DTS HDMA/DTS:X.  When things went wrong with HP#5, the Video and audio would studder or freeze or pixelate after pressing FFWD, REV, PAGEFWD or PAGEREV OPPO buttons. During this, the RMC-1 never once frozed and was always responsive to remote control cmds. In previous tests that failed before 1.7.6, the RMC-1 would lose both audio and responsiveness to remote control cmds … this required pressing front panel standby button for 10s to regain RMC-1 sanity.  Also, the sound format was always either PCM0.0 or PCM2.0, not DTS HDMA/DTS:X.  This makes me believe it's not RMC-1 fault … but, I don't know for sure.  I'll do some more testing with HP#5 and NFL games with TiVO tomorrow.
EDIT:  Confirmed later HP#5 is an OPPO203 issue, not RMC-1 issue.

For my config, RMC-1 is now extremely stable (especially for V/A drops) … your results may vary. I'm very happy with RMC-1 now.

Config:

(disc)OPPO203/Main_V/A_Out ---> Input1/RMC-1
TiVO Bolt/Out ---> input2/RMC-1
RMC-1/Out2 --->LG_C8_77"_OLED


Cables:
---> = HDfury 18Mbps 6ft cbl
--->---> = Tributaries 18Mbps 33ft cbl

Movies:
All movies (OPPO203 disc) below passed except HP#5 … which I'm learning towards an OPPO issue. All these movies had audio drop and stability issues with RMC-1 before 1.7.6 … they all work now. Not sure what caused the V/A issues with HP#5. I tested 4K Hitman twice, both before and after HP#5 with no issues. Stay tuned.  EDIT: Confirmed later HP#5 is an OPPO203 issue, not RMC-1 issue.
1. 4k Gladiator dts HDMA7.1/dts:X
2. 2k Kung Fu Panda DD True HDMA 5.1/DD_Surround
3. 2k Returned to Me DDHDMA 5.1/DTS Neural:X
4. 4K Hitman Agent 47, DTS HDMA7.1/DTS Neural:X
5. 4K Harry Potter Order of the Phoenix, DTS HDMA/ DTS:X
6. 4K Hitman Agent 47, DTS HDMA7.1/DTS Neural:X (tested Hitman again to verify it was a OPPO or disc issue that caused HP#5 not to play correctly).
7. 4k Ironman (German Version), DTS HDMA5.1/DTS Neural:X

[TDifEQ]

Update:


1.  HP#5 Frame Freeze/Jumping and pixilation:  The Frame Freezing/Jumping and pixilation with 4k HP#5 movie is an OPPO203 issue.  I've sent email to service@oppodigital to see if they can repair it.  This has happened to other OPPO203 owners with other movies as well … per avsforum OPPO203: www.avsforum.com/forum/149-blu-ray-players/2676801-official-oppo-udp-203-owner-s-thread-1251.html#post58828526.   I've updated previous post ^^^^^.

[TDifEQ]

Here's a real twist on what one think's is going on with EDID … versus what is really going on … as determined by HDfury's Vertex2.

Config:

OPPO203/MainVAOut ---> In1/RMC-1/Out2 ---> In0/Vertex2/Out0 ---> In1/4kLG OLED TV
RMC-1/Out1 ---> In1/Vertex2/Out1 ---> In2/4k JVC 600 Projector
Lumagen/Out2 ---> In1/4k JVC 600 Projector

The JVC 600 4k projector has 2 inputs. Both are 4k, but input HDMI2 is designed to better accommodate "older" video 1080p, 480p/i ect..

1. When projector is powered up, the EDID of both projector HDMI inputs (1 & 2) says it's 4k … per Vertex2.
2. When projector is in standby (i.e. off, but with AC power connected), the projector's EDIDs for HDMI1 is 4k and HDMI2 is 1080p … per Vertex2.

Apparently, when the projector is in standby, the projector's HDMI2 input tells RMC-1 it's a 1080p display device!  HDMI1's EDID works just fine.

[jonstatt]

Apr 13, 2020 10:20:29 GMT -5 TDifEQ said:

Here's a real twist on what one think's is going on with EDID … versus what is really going on … as determined by HDfury's Vertex2.

Config:

OPPO203/MainVAOut ---> In1/RMC-1/Out2 ---> In0/Vertex2/Out0 ---> In1/4kLG OLED TV
RMC-1/Out1 ---> In1/Vertex2/Out1 ---> In2/4k JVC 600 Projector
Lumagen/Out2 ---> In1/4k JVC 600 Projector

The JVC 600 4k projector has 2 inputs. Both are 4k, but input HDMI2 is designed to better accommodate "older" video 1080p, 480p/i ect..

1. When projector is powered up, the EDID of both projector HDMI inputs (1 & 2) says it's 4k … per Vertex2.
2. When projector is in standby (i.e. off, but with AC power connected), the projector's EDIDs for HDMI1 is 4k and HDMI2 is 1080p … per Vertex2.

Apparently, when the projector is in standby, the projector tells RMC-1 it's a 1080p display device!

The latest JVC projectors have an EDID option in the menus for HDMI2. Mode A is normal use and Mode B is for 1080p compatibility. Does yours have this?