klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,746
|
Post by klinemj on Feb 13, 2020 12:16:08 GMT -5
Once you've added a sub it's now a "hybrid" speaker and not "just a dipole" (and, yes, that's exactly what I would do). Some people would say that "having a design that doesn't work right without a sub" is a flaw. To the above - I say - "I don't care". I'll happily use the dipole for what it does well and another speaker for something it does well. There are even some speakers (Martin Logan) that have dipole and traditional in 1 box. (Your "magical" is my "too airy and insubstantial".... and my "precise and solid" probably sounds "heavy and dark" to you I would say my "magical" is very precise and solid. I hear precise details on my Maggies that other speakers seem to hide - often because, to my ear, I hear a harshness that's masking the precise details. Mark
|
|
|
Post by tchaik on Feb 13, 2020 13:05:05 GMT -5
Once you've added a sub it's now a "hybrid" speaker and not "just a dipole" (and, yes, that's exactly what I would do). Some people would say that "having a design that doesn't work right without a sub" is a flaw. To the above - I say - "I don't care". I'll happily use the dipole for what it does well and another speaker for something it does well. There are even some speakers (Martin Logan) that have dipole and traditional in 1 box. (Your "magical" is my "too airy and insubstantial".... and my "precise and solid" probably sounds "heavy and dark" to you I would say my "magical" is very precise and solid. I hear precise details on my Maggies that other speakers seem to hide - often because, to my ear, I hear a harshness that's masking the precise details. Mark this is what's great about this hobby. so many flavors, so many palettes. tchaik
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,746
|
Post by klinemj on Feb 13, 2020 15:56:42 GMT -5
To the above - I say - "I don't care". I'll happily use the dipole for what it does well and another speaker for something it does well. There are even some speakers (Martin Logan) that have dipole and traditional in 1 box. I would say my "magical" is very precise and solid. I hear precise details on my Maggies that other speakers seem to hide - often because, to my ear, I hear a harshness that's masking the precise details. Mark this is what's great about this hobby. so many flavors, so many palettes. tchaik I totally agree! And, I also happened to think of something. I don't hear anyone saying that the current Emotiva speaker lineup is flawed because it uses 1 type of technology for its tweeters (folded ribbon) whereas it uses traditional cone-type driver technology for mid and low end response. Quite to the contrary...most people I know (me included) are raving about the great high end and great low end even though they are delivered by different technologies. Further, I've seen many argue that having the low end in 1 box and the mid/high end in another actually has advantages...specifically, each can be placed optimally within the room. I've found that to be true, for sure. My sub is optimally placed to avoid room issues and provide even sound all around. The Maggies are placed for optimum imaging. Once one is in that mindset, whether the upper end is done by traditional drivers, folded ribbon, or is planar and dipole while the low end is a different technology really does not matter. Does it KeithL? Mark
|
|
|
Post by Jean Genie on Feb 13, 2020 18:01:39 GMT -5
NOTHING sounds live, EVER ...except live, no p.a., no mics, no speakers. Instruments & voices.
|
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,348
|
Post by DYohn on Feb 14, 2020 8:39:58 GMT -5
My open baffle subwoofer system is designed to transition from 2pi to 4-pi space @ 48Hz and produces 108dB peak @ 20Hz, so performance has less to do with the alignment and more how you execute the alignment.
|
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,941
|
Post by KeithL on Feb 14, 2020 9:38:44 GMT -5
I agree entirely... and everything has limitations. (I think it would be perfectly fair to say that traditional dipoles don't work very well for low bass.)
When it comes to headphones I absolutely prefer electrostatics... and, as far as I'm concerned, nothing comes close. And, in headphones, electrostatics work very well with a single driver, large in comparison to the size of your ear, with no crossover, and no room interactions. However, this overall schema doesn't translate especially well to speakers. With electrostatic speakers you have all sorts of trade-off that you don't have with headphones.
With electrostatic speakers, you have limits in bass response, and you have room interactions, and you have dipole cancellations. You also have the fact that any panel large enough to move any air at all is going to be directional at high frequencies... and more directional as the frequency goes higher. Therefore, you can either use one panel, and sit at one precise location in the room, or use multiple panels, in different sizes, and deal with a crossover and interactions between the drivers. So, sadly, while there are some thing I love about electrostatics, I've never found an electrostatic speaker that checks all the boxes for me. (And, perhaps equally sadly, while I think they sound better than speakers, I just don't like wearing headphones to listen to music.)
Note, though, that our folded ribbons are still comprised of a relatively stiff material, being driven by a motor, with magnets and voice coils, and a sealed back. (But, then, two thirds of that description applies to Magneplanars as well.)
this is what's great about this hobby. so many flavors, so many palettes. tchaik I totally agree! And, I also happened to think of something. I don't hear anyone saying that the current Emotiva speaker lineup is flawed because it uses 1 type of technology for its tweeters (folded ribbon) whereas it uses traditional cone-type driver technology for mid and low end response. Quite to the contrary...most people I know (me included) are raving about the great high end and great low end even though they are delivered by different technologies. Further, I've seen many argue that having the low end in 1 box and the mid/high end in another actually has advantages...specifically, each can be placed optimally within the room. I've found that to be true, for sure. My sub is optimally placed to avoid room issues and provide even sound all around. The Maggies are placed for optimum imaging. Once one is in that mindset, whether the upper end is done by traditional drivers, folded ribbon, or is planar and dipole while the low end is a different technology really does not matter. Does it KeithL ? Mark
|
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,941
|
Post by KeithL on Feb 14, 2020 9:58:54 GMT -5
I agree - but I might take it even further... Unless you attend symphony orchestra concerts, or small recitals, in small rooms, intended for a few people... which I generally don't... I can't remember the last time I attended a "live concert" where there weren't microphones and speakers involved.
Actually that's not true... I can remember the one time when I suspect this might have actually been true... (Not counting a band I recorded when I was in high school.)
It was the one time I attended a symphony orchestra concert in a big concert hall (I'm not a big classical fan)...
Sadly, virtually every other time, while I enjoyed the performance, and enjoyed the experience of attending the performance... There was no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the system I have in my living room sounded significantly better...
Therefore, to be very blunt, I have no desire to have my system "sound just like a live performance"... What I really want is for it to sound like "what I think a live performance should sound like"... And that is a much more complex proposition.... "Let's lose the microphone on the vocalist; it's distorting her voice; and it doesn't sound like it's coming from her mouth." "And those speakers halfway back along the ceiling totally wreck the imaging on the trumpets; and they can't handle the hard transients very well either." "And you should never play a flute through a PA system."
"But we need to keep the guitar speakers; because their distortion is what makes an electric guitar sound like it should (so they count as part of the instrument)." "And, obviously, an electric organ won't work without the electric parts."
And you don't even want to think about what music usually goes through between the performance and a typical recording... If you've ever recorded anything, then you already know that, while "just putting a few microphones in front of the musicians and recording what they play" sounds like a nice idea.
It never works like you'd expect... and the recording never comes out anything like what you heard when you were actually there.
(Engineering a recording is sort of like what they say about a woman applying makeup.... you have to use a lot, and do it really well, to come out looking like you didn't use any.)
NOTHING sounds live, EVER ...except live, no p.a., no mics, no speakers. Instruments & voices.
|
|
|
Post by Jean Genie on Feb 14, 2020 10:11:19 GMT -5
". . . It never works like you'd expect... and the recording never comes out anything like what you heard when you were actually there . . ."
That is precisely what I was referring to, although I have been to sessions that were electronics free and quite good, albeit sans drumkits - they are ALWAYS too dang loud live.
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,746
|
Post by klinemj on Feb 14, 2020 16:23:42 GMT -5
I agree entirely... and everything has limitations. (I think it would be perfectly fair to say that traditional dipoles don't work very well for low bass.)
When it comes to headphones I absolutely prefer electrostatics... and, as far as I'm concerned, nothing comes close. And, in headphones, electrostatics work very well with a single driver, large in comparison to the size of your ear, with no crossover, and no room interactions. However, this overall schema doesn't translate especially well to speakers. With electrostatic speakers you have all sorts of trade-off that you don't have with headphones.
With electrostatic speakers, you have limits in bass response, and you have room interactions, and you have dipole cancellations. You also have the fact that any panel large enough to move any air at all is going to be directional at high frequencies... and more directional as the frequency goes higher. Therefore, you can either use one panel, and sit at one precise location in the room, or use multiple panels, in different sizes, and deal with a crossover and interactions between the drivers. So, sadly, while there are some thing I love about electrostatics, I've never found an electrostatic speaker that checks all the boxes for me. (And, perhaps equally sadly, while I think they sound better than speakers, I just don't like wearing headphones to listen to music.)
Note, though, that our folded ribbons are still comprised of a relatively stiff material, being driven by a motor, with magnets and voice coils, and a sealed back. (But, then, two thirds of that description applies to Magneplanars as well.)
I totally agree! And, I also happened to think of something. I don't hear anyone saying that the current Emotiva speaker lineup is flawed because it uses 1 type of technology for its tweeters (folded ribbon) whereas it uses traditional cone-type driver technology for mid and low end response. Quite to the contrary...most people I know (me included) are raving about the great high end and great low end even though they are delivered by different technologies. Further, I've seen many argue that having the low end in 1 box and the mid/high end in another actually has advantages...specifically, each can be placed optimally within the room. I've found that to be true, for sure. My sub is optimally placed to avoid room issues and provide even sound all around. The Maggies are placed for optimum imaging. Once one is in that mindset, whether the upper end is done by traditional drivers, folded ribbon, or is planar and dipole while the low end is a different technology really does not matter. Does it KeithL ? Mark Panel dipoles do have their limits and are more touchy on setup than non-dipole, but as I noted I believe in my first post in this thread...if you have the right room and place them properly - they can be amazing. I would never recommend them to anyone who had a very irregular room (or one with a lot of inherent, non-deadened room echo) or has limits on room placement (such as WAF, door locations, etc.). Mine are in a room with no discernible echo that's nearly perfectly rectangular, with the Maggies out the ideal distances from the back and side walls to do what they can with bass (w/o any boominess), and are several feet from and symmetrically placed between the side walls. That's as ideal as you can get, and they sound magnificent. And...you're still on that bass thing. Agree with you there...that's why I use a sub. So, no need to repeat it again, and again, and again..."we get it..." Mark
|
|
|
Post by rbk123 on Feb 14, 2020 16:32:24 GMT -5
I think the real reason your dipoles are so good is the planar driver technology, which pretty much forces the speaker to be a dipole.
|
|
|
Post by wizardofoz on Feb 14, 2020 23:38:43 GMT -5
I’ll keep my linkwitzlab Orion’s and lx521’s any day
|
|
|
Post by mauriceminor on Feb 15, 2020 0:17:46 GMT -5
I’ll keep my linkwitzlab Orion’s and lx521’s any day And I sir, my Linkwitz Lab LXmini, Pluto, and Watson http://www.linkwitzlab.com
|
|
|
Post by wizardofoz on Feb 15, 2020 11:15:24 GMT -5
Yes I have the LXmini and Pluto too...great designs
|
|
|
Post by tom9933 on May 6, 2020 15:58:43 GMT -5
So I've also been recently been looking into Open Baffle speakers for a project.. I'm curious if anyone here has heard any of the Spatial Audio or GR-Research units? I've been going back and forth between the two options and with the GR I would absolutely be adding in some of their OB subs..
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Jun 8, 2020 12:32:39 GMT -5
In addition to being a form of Open Baffle, Maggies are also generally considered as a LINE SOURCE which again changes the equation of room / speaker somewhat.
|
|
|
Post by pedrocols on Jun 9, 2020 22:02:44 GMT -5
There is not coincidence Magnepan speakers are arguably the most owned speakers with hundreds of thousands of them sold! Maybe, just maybe they are a damn good sounding speaker.
|
|