KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 12, 2021 3:12:52 GMT -5
Not at all....
We're not staging an assault on anything... And we're not trying to take over the world... We prefer to design, manufacture, and sell good quality products for which there is actually a good market.
We discontinued our quite popular XSP-1 high end two channel preamp because there is a new model on the way. (You'll be hearing about that shortly.)
Likewise we also have a new high-end DAC on the way. (Although there are still a few details there that we aren't discussing).
As for turntables and tube gear... Those may appear back on our roadmap in the future... And, if they do, we'll let you know...
So, you are telling us you’ve given up on the Emotiva turntable along with all things two channel? Tubes, preamps, dacs, turntables, what’s next? Admittedly, it takes a lot to mount an “all out assault on the high end “.
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Post by bigmule on Jan 12, 2021 6:46:15 GMT -5
Keith, You have continually assaulted vinyl over the years...however, kudos to you for staying in your lane. Why would turntables appear "back" on Emotiva's roadmap if vinyl is dead...and is not a "good" market? I wonder how Chad Kassem, Pro-ject, and Rega feel about the dead vinyl market? Not at all....
We're not staging an assault on anything... And we're not trying to take over the world... We prefer to design, manufacture, and sell good quality products for which there is actually a good market.
We discontinued our quite popular XSP-1 high end two channel preamp because there is a new model on the way. (You'll be hearing about that shortly.)
Likewise we also have a new high-end DAC on the way. (Although there are still a few details there that we aren't discussing).
As for turntables and tube gear... Those may appear back on our roadmap in the future... And, if they do, we'll let you know...
So, you are telling us you’ve given up on the Emotiva turntable along with all things two channel? Tubes, preamps, dacs, turntables, what’s next? Admittedly, it takes a lot to mount an “all out assault on the high end “.
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Post by audiobill on Jan 12, 2021 7:48:02 GMT -5
Not at all....
We're not staging an assault on anything... And we're not trying to take over the world... We prefer to design, manufacture, and sell good quality products for which there is actually a good market.
We discontinued our quite popular XSP-1 high end two channel preamp because there is a new model on the way. (You'll be hearing about that shortly.)
Likewise we also have a new high-end DAC on the way. (Although there are still a few details there that we aren't discussing).
As for turntables and tube gear... Those may appear back on our roadmap in the future... And, if they do, we'll let you know...
So, you are telling us you’ve given up on the Emotiva turntable along with all things two channel? Tubes, preamps, dacs, turntables, what’s next? Admittedly, it takes a lot to mount an “all out assault on the high end “. Good to hear this news about your course correction. BTW, "All out assault on the high end" was your tagline for years, IIRC.
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 12, 2021 8:14:53 GMT -5
I love ❤️ “High End”. I never buy it.....just use it to find to find the stuff in the middle that’s worth it.
Bill
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jan 12, 2021 8:36:41 GMT -5
Since vinyl was the dominant (indeed the ONLY) format for decades, it will always be a niche market. But make no mistake, despite the articles you read about how much sales have increased, it remains a niche market. The graphs Keith posted demonstrate just how niche it is.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jan 12, 2021 8:46:12 GMT -5
A friend of mine from my time in radio in the 1980's is now a VP for Artist Development at Concord Music Group, a large music publishing company. I asked him about their support for vinyl. He said they will continue to authorize vinyl pressing as long as they can get them because there is a small but enthusiastic customer base for it. But he also said they really don't make much money from vinyl releases and they only keep them alive because it is expected, and because it keeps people buying their labels. He said the real money is in music licensing and publishing (and they don't really make any money off CD releases either.) FWIW.
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Post by davidl81 on Jan 12, 2021 9:21:14 GMT -5
Keith, You have continually assaulted vinyl over the years...however, kudos to you for staying in your lane. Why would turntables appear "back" on Emotiva's roadmap if vinyl is dead...and is not a "good" market? I wonder how Chad Kassem, Pro-ject, and Rega feel about the dead vinyl market? Not at all....
We're not staging an assault on anything... And we're not trying to take over the world... We prefer to design, manufacture, and sell good quality products for which there is actually a good market.
We discontinued our quite popular XSP-1 high end two channel preamp because there is a new model on the way. (You'll be hearing about that shortly.)
Likewise we also have a new high-end DAC on the way. (Although there are still a few details there that we aren't discussing).
As for turntables and tube gear... Those may appear back on our roadmap in the future... And, if they do, we'll let you know...
Vinyl is clearly a niche market, but one that has a decent increase in sales over the past few years. But really more than anything Vinyl tends to attract "high end" audio sales significantly more relative to streamers do. So even with a small market there is a lot of opportunity for sales, especially for a company the size of Emotiva. The mass market guys (D&M, Sony, etc) may put a TT out there, but for the most part they are going to focus on HT stuff. This leaves a small but profitable market for things like pre-amps, TT etc to the smaller guys. While I don't think Emotiva should build a TT, I think pre-amps, and integrated amps should be part of their product line up.
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 12, 2021 10:02:19 GMT -5
Since vinyl was the dominant (indeed the ONLY) format for decades, it will always be a niche market. But make no mistake, despite the articles you read about how much sales have increased, it remains a niche market. The graphs Keith posted demonstrate just how niche it is. .....Same with tubes.....it’s all we had....niche market rules there also
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Post by rbk123 on Jan 12, 2021 11:39:22 GMT -5
Why would turntables appear "back" on Emotiva's roadmap if vinyl is dead...and is not a "good" market? It's a "never say never" statement, nothing more. Meaning it is possible vinyl won't die and/or actually become a good market, however not likely. If so they'll reconsider.
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 12, 2021 12:16:26 GMT -5
Sort of going a bit off-topic here, but assuming the same cartridge, is there that much difference in audio quality between turntables? If so, like what, and why?
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Post by audiobill on Jan 12, 2021 12:22:26 GMT -5
It may be that if @keithl doesn’t approve, it doesn’t get made.....
Streaming, tubes, vinyl, turntables, etc....
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Post by brutiarti on Jan 12, 2021 12:37:59 GMT -5
It may be that if @keithl doesn’t approve, it doesn’t get made..... Streaming, tubes, vinyl, turntables, etc.... Schiit seems to be thriving with those products.
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 12, 2021 12:38:04 GMT -5
Sort of going a bit off-topic here, but assuming the same cartridge, is there that much difference in audio quality between turntables? If so, like what, and why? Oh Wow (LOL) could this ever be a Segway into a Pandora’s box! That’s because the chances they would be comparing turntables with identical cartridges isn’t very good, I would imagine. .....And, so many of those gourmet cartridges actually cost MORE than the turntables they are installed in. Bill
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 12, 2021 14:11:33 GMT -5
Well.... yes and no.
In theory what a turntable does is pretty simple. Rotate the record at the right speed while holding the cartridge in the right place relative to it.
The problem is that, with vinyl albums, the audio signal is stored in the form of little wiggles in a little groove. Look at a record and observe how small those grooves are. Those grooves represent the audio you want to hear. Now remember that ANY movement of the cartridge relative to the surface will produce sound. Now imagine the surface vibrating a little bit... perhaps from motor vibration... If that vibration moves the surface 1/1000 as far as the music recorded in the groove the noise it produces will only be 60 dB down. (It's actually a lot more complicated but the scale of magnitude there is about right.)
And, in fact, it's actually pretty difficult to spin something at a precise speed... And, in fact, it's even more difficult because the platter actually spins relatively slowly (so not much "flywheel effect" unless it's heavy)...
And even the tiniest vibration that makes it through to the record will introduce distortion or a funny noise... And, even if the surface of the record vibrates due to sound in the air, again you have undesired sound...
And, of course, as the surface pushes up on the stylus, the stylus pushes down on it, which might cause the record itself to vibrate... (In effect the stylus is tapping on the surface of a sheet of plastic... which we hope won;t make any sound at all in response to that pressure.)
And the arm can't simply hold the cartridge in place... It has to move across the record... And, since no record is ever perfectly flat, it has to follow the surface up and down as well... Yet, while doing all that, it still must remain at the exact precise relationship to the record's surface (when considered at audio frequencies)...
So..... - some turntables have audible speed variations (wow or flutter depending on how fast they occur) - some turntables have rumble (usually due to bearing noise) - some turntables have audible motor noises - some turntables fail to prevent outside noises from leaking in through the suspension - some arms don't move smoothly enough (so they can't follow a record that's even slightly warped) - and the bearings on some arms have a bit too much drag
- every arm has a somewhat flexible suspension (so it has a resonant frequency between its weight and that spring constant)
- and the cartridge must be mounted in the arm at the precise correct angle - and, as the arm swings across the record, that angle changes (draw it on a piece of paper... you can minimize the error but you can't fix it completely) - (and there are arms that move horizontally... but that causes other problems) - (and even the same cartridge is going to act differently with arms that are longer or shorter, or heavier or lighter, or hold the cartridge at a different angle) - (and we haven't even mentioned things like suspension, and damping, and arm materials, intended to minimize these things)
And all of those things do in fact affect how the same cartridge will sound when playing the same record....
And some of them do so in interesting and unexpected ways...
For example: - a certain cartridge (which has a certain weight and a certain amount of springiness) - in a certain arm (which has a certain weight) - might end up with a resonant frequency that happens to match exactly with the warp in a certain record - and, if it does, you might hear some really interesting warbles in the bass (or that arm might jump right off that particular record on that particular track)
The bottom line is that, because the system is so delicate, even incredibly minor things CAN affect the way it sounds.
Sort of going a bit off-topic here, but assuming the same cartridge, is there that much difference in audio quality between turntables? If so, like what, and why?
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Post by audiobill on Jan 12, 2021 14:21:39 GMT -5
And, amazingly can still sound better than digital!!!
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 12, 2021 14:35:26 GMT -5
I think you know better than that...
At most I, and a lot of other people, have some degree of input on our new products... But our CEO Big Dan makes all the big decisions there...
It should also be obvious that, just because I personally wouldn't buy a turntable, that doesn't mean I wouldn't cheerfully sell one to you... And, for that matter, even though I don't personally enjoy listening to tube gear, I happen to know quite a lot about designing and building it... I think the technology itself is pretty cool... in a retro sort of way...
(I've also owned plenty of vinyl, and some very nice turntables, and probably more tube gear than almost anyone else on this forum.)
However... as an aside...
I always find it humorous, in a sad sort of way, when I see a company selling tube gear or turntables... and it's obvious they're totally clueless...
Some of the old time engineers who actually designed great tube gear back in the day would be spinning in their graves over some of the modern silliness about tubes... (They'd be spinning in their graves because they'd never laughed so hard in their entire lives.) It may be that if @keithl doesn’t approve, it doesn’t get made..... Streaming, tubes, vinyl, turntables, etc....
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jan 12, 2021 15:39:48 GMT -5
And, amazingly can still sound better than digital!!! If by "digital" you refer to the sound from a $29 RockWood CD player from Walmart, then sure.
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Post by brutiarti on Jan 12, 2021 15:47:40 GMT -5
And, amazingly can still sound better than digital!!! Yep. I don’t know if it’s the mastering for vinyl records or what but my copy of Pet Sounds sounds amazing. Second place for the SACD on an Esoteric transport with an Esoteric Dac. 3rd place for the regular redbook and or HiFi streamed from Tidal. The voices just sound so realistic. Obviously this is my opinion others might differ completely.
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Post by audiobill on Jan 12, 2021 16:59:49 GMT -5
And, amazingly can still sound better than digital!!! If by "digital" you refer to the sound from a $29 RockWood CD player from Walmart, then sure. D Y, may want to rethink your cartridge lol!
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Post by foggy1956 on Jan 12, 2021 17:14:33 GMT -5
If by "digital" you refer to the sound from a $29 RockWood CD player from Walmart, then sure. D Y, may want to rethink your cartridge lol! Or you, your digital source😎
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