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Post by SOWK on Feb 26, 2020 15:18:32 GMT -5
Please discuss any Audio Science Review information here. Keep it civil as well. Thank you.
Review:
Emotiva's Response:
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 26, 2020 15:32:51 GMT -5
[CONTINUED FROM THE RMC-1 OWNERS THREAD]
That is one way of looking at things... but I would say it's probably not the best way. When you purchase audio equipment you are purchasing it to listen to (at least that's true for most of us).
The only reason to look at the measurements would be if they told you something that would enable you to make a better purchasing decision. (Do you really sit down and pore over the specifications of the car you already own after you buy it?.)
So, if the numbers don't actually tell you how something is going to sound, then they really serve no purpose at all. As KlineMJ says, we've sold a lot of RMC's so far, and I don't recall anyone saying that they sound anything other than superb. Most people who own an RMC-1, or an XMC-2, agree that they sound noticeably better than our competitors products... even ones that cost twice as much or more. And, yes, most people who've actually heard them agree that, contrary to what some folks would have you believe, different models and brands actually do sound quite different.
And, yes, we're still working through a few functionality issues. However, there doesn't seem to be much point in obsessing over numbers that quite obviously don't tell you how a piece of audio gear actually sounds.
I don't know if anyone else notices this, but on the Lounge - there are a lot of people who bought an RMC-1, RMC-1L, or XMC-2 (and many more - like me, waiting for the right time). The biggest complaint most have been having is related to FW issues, but I don't recall a single person saying the sound is mediocre. so, those who have been complaining have been saying "hurry up and get me better FW and get me DIRAC!" And, many here have lectured Emotiva to not do ANYTHING else until they get the FW and Dirac done. Now, they launch what is looking like a major step forward in the FW, and along come a few who want to harp over test results that would say the processors should sound bad. (Uncanny coincidence on their timing, isn't it?) And, even when Emotiva shows their data, they nit pick. AND...in their push to get others to look at Amir's data, they have successfully taken the time of at least Ray Denison, Lonnie Vaughn, and Nick Mandara...when they could have been doing other, more important things. I say we let those wanting to tout Amir's data as valid say what they want and not bother any further with them...ignore them. They don't even care to listen to the processor (And Amir can't even get HDMI to work on more than 1 prepro...so...why trust him?) I would personally like Ray, Lonnie, and Nick focused on more important things. Mark The thing is that is probably sounds fine and most issues cannot be heard, but you are paying $5000 for a device that has some very clear design errors. Problems that have been solved over 30 years ago....
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koeitje
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Post by koeitje on Feb 26, 2020 15:37:08 GMT -5
Up to an extend numbers will tell you how it sounds. After you hit a certain level things will start to sound exactly the same in controlled level-matched ABX tests. So the question is who can provide the right combination of performance and features. If I'm spending $5000 I expect stereo performance that beats and Apple dongle. It turns out that I have extreme standards, because it seems a lot of people don't expect that kind of performance for $5000.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 26, 2020 15:45:24 GMT -5
You seem to be assuming that certain specific numbers will actually correlate with audible performance... or at least not do the opposite. How certain are you that this is in fact the case? For example, a friend of mine has a 500cc motorcycle that can accelerate faster than the latest model Rolls Royce.... Does that actually correlate to how well and how comfortably both will get you somewhere?
Or could we, perhaps, be missing something? The reality is that home theater processors do not all sound the same... not even close.
Therefore we seem to have not reached that point yet (although I agree that someday we probably will). (If they really do all sound the same then we should all stop this silly discussion and pick up whatever is on sale at our local mass market electronics store.)
Up to an extend numbers will tell you how it sounds. After you hit a certain level things will start to sound exactly the same in controlled level-matched ABX tests. So the question is who can provide the right combination of performance and features. If I'm spending $5000 I expect stereo performance that beats and Apple dongle. It turns out that I have extreme standards, because it seems a lot of people don't expect that kind of performance for $5000.
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koeitje
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Post by koeitje on Feb 26, 2020 15:51:21 GMT -5
You seem to be assuming that certain specific numbers will actually correlate with audible performance... or at least not do the opposite. How certain are you that this is in fact the case?
For example, a friend of mine has a 500cc motorcycle that can accelerate faster than the latest model Rolls Royce.... Does that actually correlate to how well and how comfortably both will get you somewhere?
Or could we, perhaps, be missing something?
The reality is that home theater processors do not all sound the same... not even close.
Therefore we seem to have not reached that point yet (although I aagree that someday we probably will). (If they really do all sound the same then we should all stop this silly discussion and pick up whatever is on sale at our local mass market electronics store.)
Up to an extend numbers will tell you how it sounds. After you hit a certain level things will start to sound exactly the same in controlled level-matched ABX tests. So the question is who can provide the right combination of performance and features. If I'm spending $5000 I expect stereo performance that beats and Apple dongle. It turns out that I have extreme standards, because it seems a lot of people don't expect that kind of performance for $5000. Why are you trying to compare apples to oranges? I am comparing a simple step: digital in -> analog out. And it is probably true that home theater processors sound different, because some of them perform far worse than the RMC-1 with issues clearly in the audible domain. But most of these differences are due to not doing a blind ABX with level matching. There is no reason we cannot reach the level of performance we want, all the parts you need are already available on the market.
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Post by thxultra on Feb 26, 2020 15:58:49 GMT -5
Moving this here from the RMC1 thread... 34 minutes ago koeitje said: thxultra Avatar 42 minutes ago thxultra said: I'm not a engineer so I can't answer that question for sure. My best guess is "every step" along the way signal to noise ratio takes a hit. This is why a $200 desktop dac measures better then every AV processor. So if you lose less at the DAC stage then the sound at the end will be better. Brings another topic of if expensive DAC's are actually worth it or not. I argue that my XMC-2 sounds great because Emotiva did the analogue section correctly as well. You can take a expensive DAC and have a crap analogue section and the sound is going to suck. Today's multichannel DACs are really good also I have had gear with multichannel DACs that sound great. Anthem uses one in the AVM-60 and it is a amazing sounding processor. Point here is Lonnie hit the nail on the head when he said you can't compare apples to Oranges. Comparing a Av processor to a standalone DAC is like comparing engine horsepower at the flywheel on one car vs the wheels on another... Yes, every stop adds distortion and noise but even if you take that into account you can still easily get very high performance. The total THD+N for the chain is mostly caused by the worst part. At the bottom of this page you can add distortion parts together: www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm. Be sure to use negative values if you are entering SINAD. For example -115 for DACs and -105 for pre-amplifiers. I do agree multichannel DAC's can be very good. Okto Research has an amazing state of the art 8 channel DAC. But didn't Lonnie get amazing results? He ran his test at -20db on the volume which is neighbors calling the Police volume on my XMC-2. If I run my XMC-2 at 0db on the volume control it is ear damaging loud this isn't a realistic volume. Can't compare this to a desktop DAC either since they don't have a volume control... Once again apples and oranges.
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Feb 26, 2020 16:05:41 GMT -5
You seem to be assuming that certain specific numbers will actually correlate with audible performance... or at least not do the opposite. How certain are you that this is in fact the case? For example, a friend of mine has a 500cc motorcycle that can accelerate faster than the latest model Rolls Royce.... Does that actually correlate to how well and how comfortably both will get you somewhere?
Or could we, perhaps, be missing something? The reality is that home theater processors do not all sound the same... not even close.
Therefore we seem to have not reached that point yet (although I aagree that someday we probably will). (If they really do all sound the same then we should all stop this silly discussion and pick up whatever is on sale at our local mass market electronics store.)
Why are you trying to compare apples to oranges? I am comparing a simple step: digital in -> analog out. And it is probably true that home theater processors sound different, because some of them perform far worse than the RMC-1 with issues clearly in the audible domain. But most of these differences are due to not doing a blind ABX with level matching. There is no reason we cannot reach the level of performance we want, all the parts you need are already available on the market. Then build one.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 26, 2020 16:13:10 GMT -5
As for apples and oranges... fair question that deserves an answer... because a Home Theater Processor is NOT a simple "digital in -> analog out" device. It does a whole bunch of much more complicated things... which require multiple digital processors... and lots of other very complicated electronics.
Yet, for some odd reason, we're having this discussion in a thread about a high end home theater surround sound processor, which does lots of other complex stuff.
If all I want to do is convert a two-channel digital audio signal into a two-channel analog audio signal I'm going to use a two-channel DAC. (While we don't currently have one in our model lineup... the relevant models there would be our Big Ego and Little Ego stereo DACs... which sold for less than $200.)
As you seem to concede, apparently home theater processors have NOT progressed to the point where "they all sound the same"...
And, to be quite blunt, we're pretty sure the RMC-1 is the best sounding home theater processor in its price range... And virtually everyone who has expressed an opinion on that specific subject seems to agree...
So, to be equally blunt, I'm not quite sure what this discussion is about...
You seem to be assuming that certain specific numbers will actually correlate with audible performance... or at least not do the opposite. How certain are you that this is in fact the case? For example, a friend of mine has a 500cc motorcycle that can accelerate faster than the latest model Rolls Royce.... Does that actually correlate to how well and how comfortably both will get you somewhere?
Or could we, perhaps, be missing something? The reality is that home theater processors do not all sound the same... not even close.
Therefore we seem to have not reached that point yet (although I aagree that someday we probably will). (If they really do all sound the same then we should all stop this silly discussion and pick up whatever is on sale at our local mass market electronics store.)
Why are you trying to compare apples to oranges? I am comparing a simple step: digital in -> analog out. And it is probably true that home theater processors sound different, because some of them perform far worse than the RMC-1 with issues clearly in the audible domain. But most of these differences are due to not doing a blind ABX with level matching. There is no reason we cannot reach the level of performance we want, all the parts you need are already available on the market.
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richb
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Post by richb on Feb 26, 2020 16:17:01 GMT -5
You seem to be assuming that certain specific numbers will actually correlate with audible performance... or at least not do the opposite. How certain are you that this is in fact the case? For example, a friend of mine has a 500cc motorcycle that can accelerate faster than the latest model Rolls Royce.... Does that actually correlate to how well and how comfortably both will get you somewhere?
Or could we, perhaps, be missing something? The reality is that home theater processors do not all sound the same... not even close.
Therefore we seem to have not reached that point yet (although I agree that someday we probably will). (If they really do all sound the same then we should all stop this silly discussion and pick up whatever is on sale at our local mass market electronics store.)
Up to an extend numbers will tell you how it sounds. After you hit a certain level things will start to sound exactly the same in controlled level-matched ABX tests. So the question is who can provide the right combination of performance and features. If I'm spending $5000 I expect stereo performance that beats and Apple dongle. It turns out that I have extreme standards, because it seems a lot of people don't expect that kind of performance for $5000. I do think that published specifications are worthy of scrutiny before purchase. It is a bit of a hang-up of mine, that high-end processors are have very few, include simple voltage output. It makes sense to start there or we are all doomed to buy sonic rocks, cable lifters, and unobtainium coated cables. - Rich
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 26, 2020 16:24:45 GMT -5
If someone is looking for the ultimate in stereo performance he would be a fool to try to obtain that with a AV prepro. I like what Lonnie said about all the digital manipulations that are going on in an AV prepro- EQ, DRM, multiple Codecs, bass mgmt., up mixing, hand shaking - you need a lot of digital headroom to do all of these things including a built in computer and networks; not so with a simple DAC. This Arim has a high priced state of the art AP testing machine, some management technical background which he has retired from, and is now online publishing unsolicited test results of audio and video equipment. His income is from ad hits on his website. He has nothing to lose. He has no shekels in the game (except for that god awfully expensive AP test instrument).. He has tested many pieces of equipment, mostly DACs. Then he compares DAC results to AV prepro results. Face it, there are thousands of DACs products around but few prepros or AV receivers. He has dissed every prepro he has tested. I have a Marantz AV8805 - he dissed that. The new Monolith HTP-1 - he dissed that. He is dependent on owners loaning their equipment to him for testing (that in itself adds a questionable element). Thanks to Audio Precision, he has an excellent test rig or I doubt anyone would give him the time of day to read one of his reviews.
I would think that he would be open to law suits but he is rather obscure and that protects him (so far). And lets face it, FFT analysis is over the head of 90% of the population.
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koeitje
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Post by koeitje on Feb 26, 2020 16:31:10 GMT -5
If someone is looking for the ultimate in stereo performance he would be a fool to try to obtain that with a AV prepro. I like what Lonnie said about all the digital manipulations that are going on in an AV prepro- EQ, DRM, multiple Codecs, bass mgmt., up mixing, hand shaking - you need a lot of digital headroom to do all of these thing; not so with a simple DAC. This Arim has a high priced state of the art AP testing machine, some management technical background which he has retired from, and is now online publishing unsolicited test results of audio and video equipment. His income is from ad hits on his website. He has nothing to lose. He has no shekels in the game (except for that god awfully expensive AP test instrument).. He has tested many pieces of equipment, mostly DACs. Then he compares DAC results to AV prepro results. Face it, there are thousands of DACs products around but few prepros or AV receivers. He has dissed every prepro he has tested. I have a Marantz AV8805 - he dissed that. The new Monolith HTP-1 - he dissed that. He is dependent on owners loaning their equipment to him for testing (that in itself adds a questionable element). Thanks to Audio Precision, he has an excellent test rig or I doubt anyone would give him the time of day to read one of his reviews. I would think that he would be open to law suits but he is rather obscure and that protects him (so far). I am not looking for ultimate stereo performance from an AV processor, because I know that isn't going to happen. But I am looking for something that outperforms an Apple dongle in stereo. Is that an unrealistic expectation for a $5000 product that has a stereo reference by-pass mode? An example of an issue that just shows sheer incompetence: The AK4490 has its own filters and none of those look like this. This is what they are supposed to look like: archimago.blogspot.com/2018/09/measurements-rme-adi-2-pro-fs-as-dac.html
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 26, 2020 16:33:55 GMT -5
The stereo reference by-pass mode (all analog from input to output) of the RMC_! does out perform an Apple dongle now.
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koeitje
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Post by koeitje on Feb 26, 2020 16:39:25 GMT -5
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Post by htnut1975 on Feb 26, 2020 16:45:50 GMT -5
The stereo reference by-pass mode (all analog from input to output) of the RMC_! does out perform an Apple dongle now. Sorry, I meant the digital input with the least amount of processing enabled. If we are talking analog only I'd expect something in the range of 105dB SINAD. To give perspective on performance, the mighty Apple dongle outperforms most of the A/V products that Amir has tested.
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Post by davidl81 on Feb 26, 2020 16:46:20 GMT -5
If someone is looking for the ultimate in stereo performance he would be a fool to try to obtain that with a AV prepro. I like what Lonnie said about all the digital manipulations that are going on in an AV prepro- EQ, DRM, multiple Codecs, bass mgmt., up mixing, hand shaking - you need a lot of digital headroom to do all of these thing; not so with a simple DAC. This Arim has a high priced state of the art AP testing machine, some management technical background which he has retired from, and is now online publishing unsolicited test results of audio and video equipment. His income is from ad hits on his website. He has nothing to lose. He has no shekels in the game (except for that god awfully expensive AP test instrument).. He has tested many pieces of equipment, mostly DACs. Then he compares DAC results to AV prepro results. Face it, there are thousands of DACs products around but few prepros or AV receivers. He has dissed every prepro he has tested. I have a Marantz AV8805 - he dissed that. The new Monolith HTP-1 - he dissed that. He is dependent on owners loaning their equipment to him for testing (that in itself adds a questionable element). Thanks to Audio Precision, he has an excellent test rig or I doubt anyone would give him the time of day to read one of his reviews. I would think that he would be open to law suits but he is rather obscure and that protects him (so far). I am not looking for ultimate stereo performance from an AV processor, because I know that isn't going to happen. But I am looking for something that outperforms an Apple dongle in stereo. Is that an unrealistic expectation for a $5000 product that has a stereo reference by-pass mode? An example of an issue that just shows sheer incompetence: The AK4490 has its own filters and none of those look like this. This is what they are supposed to look like: archimago.blogspot.com/2018/09/measurements-rme-adi-2-pro-fs-as-dac.htmlCool man, you don't like the review and you think Emotiva is incompetent. Since you didn't drop 5k on one and it's clear that Emotiva is not going to re-design the entire RMC-1 I suggest you look at alternative processors. The HTP-1 did better on his test (even though he based it as well). I just don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by beating this horse.
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richb
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Post by richb on Feb 26, 2020 16:50:25 GMT -5
If someone is looking for the ultimate in stereo performance he would be a fool to try to obtain that with a AV prepro. I like what Lonnie said about all the digital manipulations that are going on in an AV prepro- EQ, DRM, multiple Codecs, bass mgmt., up mixing, hand shaking - you need a lot of digital headroom to do all of these thing; not so with a simple DAC. This Arim has a high priced state of the art AP testing machine, some management technical background which he has retired from, and is now online publishing unsolicited test results of audio and video equipment. His income is from ad hits on his website. He has nothing to lose. He has no shekels in the game (except for that god awfully expensive AP test instrument).. He has tested many pieces of equipment, mostly DACs. Then he compares DAC results to AV prepro results. Face it, there are thousands of DACs products around but few prepros or AV receivers. He has dissed every prepro he has tested. I have a Marantz AV8805 - he dissed that. The new Monolith HTP-1 - he dissed that. He is dependent on owners loaning their equipment to him for testing (that in itself adds a questionable element). Thanks to Audio Precision, he has an excellent test rig or I doubt anyone would give him the time of day to read one of his reviews. I would think that he would be open to law suits but he is rather obscure and that protects him (so far). I am not looking for ultimate stereo performance from an AV processor, because I know that isn't going to happen. But I am looking for something that outperforms an Apple dongle in stereo. Is that an unrealistic expectation for a $5000 product that has a stereo reference by-pass mode? An example of an issue that just shows sheer incompetence: The AK4490 has its own filters and none of those look like this. This is what they are supposed to look like: archimago.blogspot.com/2018/09/measurements-rme-adi-2-pro-fs-as-dac.htmlThen RMC-1 might be using Filter #5 NOS but I'd much prefer (or at least an option) to select Filter #3 Sharp, which appears to be linear phase fast. - Rich Attachments:
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koeitje
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Post by koeitje on Feb 26, 2020 16:54:12 GMT -5
I am not looking for ultimate stereo performance from an AV processor, because I know that isn't going to happen. But I am looking for something that outperforms an Apple dongle in stereo. Is that an unrealistic expectation for a $5000 product that has a stereo reference by-pass mode? An example of an issue that just shows sheer incompetence: The AK4490 has its own filters and none of those look like this. This is what they are supposed to look like: archimago.blogspot.com/2018/09/measurements-rme-adi-2-pro-fs-as-dac.htmlThen RMC-1 might be using Filter #5 NOS but I'd much prefer (or at least an option) to select Filter #3 Sharp, which appears to be linear phase fast. - Rich I don't think its #5, the bump is way too early. We should see it at 44.1khz. Regardless I agree that they should have used a sharp filter, but right now it looks like they don't do this filtering in the AK4490 but somewhere else? Because I can doubt you can create this mess with the built-in filters.
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 26, 2020 17:00:06 GMT -5
That looks like a NOS filter. Good for sharp transient reproduction. What is this from?
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koeitje
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Post by koeitje on Feb 26, 2020 17:03:48 GMT -5
That looks like a NOS filter. Good for sharp transient reproduction. What is this from? Somebody took some measurements of an RME DAC, which is a pro-audio company that knows what they are doing. The RME uses the same DAC chip as the RMC-1, but unlike the RMC-1 the RME allows you to select which built-in filter you want to use. These filters are part of the chip, not something RME made. Coincidentally Amir also tested this DAC and his measurements match those by RME themselves. But like I said somewhere else, this is usually the case with pro audio gear. No snake oil there, just performance. Its also not a NOS filter, unless he was feeding it 24khz instead of 44.1 or 48khz, and even then it still looks really odd.
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Post by foggy1956 on Feb 26, 2020 17:05:53 GMT -5
If someone is looking for the ultimate in stereo performance he would be a fool to try to obtain that with a AV prepro. I like what Lonnie said about all the digital manipulations that are going on in an AV prepro- EQ, DRM, multiple Codecs, bass mgmt., up mixing, hand shaking - you need a lot of digital headroom to do all of these thing; not so with a simple DAC. This Arim has a high priced state of the art AP testing machine, some management technical background which he has retired from, and is now online publishing unsolicited test results of audio and video equipment. His income is from ad hits on his website. He has nothing to lose. He has no shekels in the game (except for that god awfully expensive AP test instrument).. He has tested many pieces of equipment, mostly DACs. Then he compares DAC results to AV prepro results. Face it, there are thousands of DACs products around but few prepros or AV receivers. He has dissed every prepro he has tested. I have a Marantz AV8805 - he dissed that. The new Monolith HTP-1 - he dissed that. He is dependent on owners loaning their equipment to him for testing (that in itself adds a questionable element). Thanks to Audio Precision, he has an excellent test rig or I doubt anyone would give him the time of day to read one of his reviews. I would think that he would be open to law suits but he is rather obscure and that protects him (so far). I am not looking for ultimate stereo performance from an AV processor, because I know that isn't going to happen. But I am looking for something that outperforms an Apple dongle in stereo. Is that an unrealistic expectation for a $5000 product that has a stereo reference by-pass mode? An example of an issue that just shows sheer incompetence: The AK4490 has its own filters and none of those look like this. This is what they are supposed to look like: archimago.blogspot.com/2018/09/measurements-rme-adi-2-pro-fs-as-dac.htmlYup, sounds like you definitely need to invest in the Apple dongle.
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