koeitje
Minor Hero
Warning
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Posts: 28
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Post by koeitje on Feb 26, 2020 17:09:16 GMT -5
I am not looking for ultimate stereo performance from an AV processor, because I know that isn't going to happen. But I am looking for something that outperforms an Apple dongle in stereo. Is that an unrealistic expectation for a $5000 product that has a stereo reference by-pass mode? An example of an issue that just shows sheer incompetence: The AK4490 has its own filters and none of those look like this. This is what they are supposed to look like: archimago.blogspot.com/2018/09/measurements-rme-adi-2-pro-fs-as-dac.htmlYup, sounds like you definitely need to invest in the Apple dongle. I know you are just trying to bait, but you are correct: an Apple dongle indeed has a better low-pass filter in place. Still not very good, but better than what we see in the RMC-1.
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Post by foggy1956 on Feb 26, 2020 17:11:22 GMT -5
Yup, sounds like you definitely need to invest in the Apple dongle. I know you are just trying to bait, but you are correct: an Apple dongle indeed has a better low-pass filter in place. Still not very good, but better than what we see in the RMC-1. Not trying to bait, just hoping you'll go away.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,938
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Post by KeithL on Feb 26, 2020 17:13:27 GMT -5
At this point I'm going to largely retire from posting replies to amateur design suggestions. Virtually all modern DACs offer a variety of different filter choices - each with different benefits and drawbacks. For example the filter required for "MQA reconstruction" is "inadequately sharp" by virtually every measure - other than their particular requirement. (DAC manufacturers don't offer all those options to give everyone an opportunity to avoid choosing the obviously best one...)
I would suggest that the opinions of those who haven't actually designed or manufactured audio gear be granted no more than the weight they deserve... Perhaps I also need to remind certain people that, while we are quite open on this forum, even to opinions that are negative towards us... And that includes comments and suggestions about ways in which someone believes our products could or should be improved... Actual "bashing" of our company, its personnel, or its products, is an excellent way to have access to our forum revoked... I would also suggest that anyone who believes they can actually design a better processor should stop complaining and do so... (If you can really do so then it would be a great way to prove everyone else wrong... and get rich in the process... right? )
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koeitje
Minor Hero
Warning
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Posts: 28
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Post by koeitje on Feb 26, 2020 17:20:25 GMT -5
At this point I'm going to largely retire from posting replies to amateur design suggestions. Virtually all modern DACs offer a variety of different filter choices - each with different benefits and drawbacks. For example the filter required for "MQA reconstruction" is "inadequately sharp" by virtually every measure - other than their particular requirement. (DAC manufacturers don't offer all those options to give everyone an opportunity to avoid choosing the obviously best one...)
I would suggest that the opinions of those who haven't actually designed or manufactured audio be granted no more than the weight they deserve... Perhaps I also need to remind certain people that, while we are quite open on this forum, even to opinions that are negative towards us... And that includes comments and suggestions about ways in which someone believes our products could or should be improved... Actual "bashing" of our company, its personnel, or its products, is an excellent way to have access to our forum revoked...
I would also suggest that anyone who believes they can actually design a better processor should stop complaining and do so... (If you can really do so then it would be a great way to prove everyone else wrong... and get rich in the process... right? )
Again you are correct, most DACs offer a variety of filter options. But I have never seen one look like the one used in the RMC-1, could you please explain to me what kind of filter this is and why it was chosen? It has become clear to me that I don't fully understand the design choices made, so I'm trying to learn.
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 26, 2020 17:28:36 GMT -5
I just don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by beating this horse. He's trying to remain relevant, after bungling. He has to find an exit point where it appears he's the more knowledgeable, and thus correct. That will take time and a lot more posts.
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Post by htnut1975 on Feb 26, 2020 17:36:34 GMT -5
At this point I'm going to largely retire from posting replies to amateur design suggestions. Virtually all modern DACs offer a variety of different filter choices - each with different benefits and drawbacks. For example the filter required for "MQA reconstruction" is "inadequately sharp" by virtually every measure - other than their particular requirement. (DAC manufacturers don't offer all those options to give everyone an opportunity to avoid choosing the obviously best one...)
I would suggest that the opinions of those who haven't actually designed or manufactured audio be granted no more than the weight they deserve... Perhaps I also need to remind certain people that, while we are quite open on this forum, even to opinions that are negative towards us... And that includes comments and suggestions about ways in which someone believes our products could or should be improved... Actual "bashing" of our company, its personnel, or its products, is an excellent way to have access to our forum revoked...
I would also suggest that anyone who believes they can actually design a better processor should stop complaining and do so... (If you can really do so then it would be a great way to prove everyone else wrong... and get rich in the process... right? )
Again you are correct, most DACs offer a variety of filter options. But I have never seen one look like the one used in the RMC-1, could you please explain to me what kind of filter this is and why it was chosen? It has become clear to me that I don't fully understand the design choices made, so I'm trying to learn. I think you’ll get a lot more mileage and interesting conversation/responses about design choices if you lay off ad hominems/implied ad hominems (e.g., that Emotiva is guilty of being no better than a snake oil salesperson in its response today).
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 26, 2020 17:47:20 GMT -5
Oh no - Archimago - another internet electronics design expert. This is the guy who single handedly took on Bob Stuart and his MQA approach. MQA is great - I love it - Archimago must be wrong because according to him, it can't be. Basically you said the Emotiva digital filter was simply incompetent - hardly a comment to keep Keith in on the conversation. I am an electrical engineer, but admittedly I degreed before personal computers and about the time of ss devices taking over for tubes. So even though I have forgotten more mathematics than most of you were ever exposed to , I struggle to absorb this level of technical discussion. I would trust the people active in the industry now, developing products, to be better informed and more capable than any part time reviewer or hobbyist.
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koeitje
Minor Hero
Warning
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Posts: 28
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Post by koeitje on Feb 26, 2020 17:50:11 GMT -5
Again you are correct, most DACs offer a variety of filter options. But I have never seen one look like the one used in the RMC-1, could you please explain to me what kind of filter this is and why it was chosen? It has become clear to me that I don't fully understand the design choices made, so I'm trying to learn. I think you’ll get a lot more mileage and interesting conversation/responses about design choices if you lay off ad hominems/implied ad hominems (e.g., that Emotiva is guilty of being no better than a snake oil salesperson in its response today). The RMC-1 product page has a lot in common with those who deal in snake oil: they are claiming certain performance levels, yet no specifications to confirm or verify said claims can be found. Oh no - Archimago - another internet electronics design expert. This is the guy who single handedly took on Bob Stuart and his MQA approach. MQA is great - I love it - Archimago must be wrong because according to him, it can't be. Basically you said the Emotiva digital filter was simply incompetent - hardly a comment to keep Keith in on the conversation. I am an electrical engineer, but admittedly I degreed before personal computers and about the time of ss devices taking over for tubes. So even though I have forgotten more mathematics than most of you were ever exposed to , I struggle to absorb this level of technical discussion. I would trust the people active in the industry now, developing products, to be better informed and more capable than any part time reviewer or hobbyist. It literally doesn't matter what Archimago says, all I need is his measurements. But if you do not trust them, I can refer you to the data sheet: www.akm.com/content/dam/documents/products/audio/audio-dac/ak4490eq/ak4490eq-en-datasheet.pdfOr you can look at RME's manual, it shows the different filters the AK4490 offers on page 56 (but it stops at 22khz): www.archiv.rme-audio.de/download/adi2dac_e.pdf
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Feb 26, 2020 18:02:40 GMT -5
This is the filter we are currently using on the AK4490 DACs... it is the default filter for the AK4490...
Note that this filter is software selectable...
This means that we may eventually switch to a different one or offer the user multiple filter options...
(for everyone not familiar with digital filters)... Digital filters work quite differently than the analog filters many of us are familiar with. The odd looking ripple effect in the response is normal and is found in virtually all digital filters. (Note that, between the nulls, the peaks in the ripple remain at a very low level.)
At this point I'm going to largely retire from posting replies to amateur design suggestions. Virtually all modern DACs offer a variety of different filter choices - each with different benefits and drawbacks. For example the filter required for "MQA reconstruction" is "inadequately sharp" by virtually every measure - other than their particular requirement. (DAC manufacturers don't offer all those options to give everyone an opportunity to avoid choosing the obviously best one...)
I would suggest that the opinions of those who haven't actually designed or manufactured audio be granted no more than the weight they deserve... Perhaps I also need to remind certain people that, while we are quite open on this forum, even to opinions that are negative towards us... And that includes comments and suggestions about ways in which someone believes our products could or should be improved... Actual "bashing" of our company, its personnel, or its products, is an excellent way to have access to our forum revoked... I would also suggest that anyone who believes they can actually design a better processor should stop complaining and do so... (If you can really do so then it would be a great way to prove everyone else wrong... and get rich in the process... right? ) Again you are correct, most DACs offer a variety of filter options. But I have never seen one look like the one used in the RMC-1, could you please explain to me what kind of filter this is and why it was chosen? It has become clear to me that I don't fully understand the design choices made, so I'm trying to learn.
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Post by htnut1975 on Feb 26, 2020 18:06:25 GMT -5
I think you’ll get a lot more mileage and interesting conversation/responses about design choices if you lay off ad hominems/implied ad hominems (e.g., that Emotiva is guilty of being no better than a snake oil salesperson in its response today). The RMC-1 product page has a lot in common with those who deal in snake oil: they are claiming certain performance levels, yet no specifications to confirm or verify said claims can be found. Oh no - Archimago - another internet electronics design expert. This is the guy who single handedly took on Bob Stuart and his MQA approach. MQA is great - I love it - Archimago must be wrong because according to him, it can't be. Basically you said the Emotiva digital filter was simply incompetent - hardly a comment to keep Keith in on the conversation. I am an electrical engineer, but admittedly I degreed before personal computers and about the time of ss devices taking over for tubes. So even though I have forgotten more mathematics than most of you were ever exposed to , I struggle to absorb this level of technical discussion. I would trust the people active in the industry now, developing products, to be better informed and more capable than any part time reviewer or hobbyist. It literally doesn't matter what Archimago says, all I need is his measurements. But if you do not trust them, I can refer you to the data sheet: www.akm.com/content/dam/documents/products/audio/audio-dac/ak4490eq/ak4490eq-en-datasheet.pdfOr you can look at RME's manual, it shows the different filters the AK4490 offers on page 56 (but it stops at 22khz): www.archiv.rme-audio.de/download/adi2dac_e.pdfI just breezed through the product page. Please, if you could, show me the specific claims that are made with respect to performance levels without the specifications that verify the claims.
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mike77
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 1
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Post by mike77 on Feb 26, 2020 18:37:56 GMT -5
Oh no - Archimago - another internet electronics design expert. This is the guy who single handedly took on Bob Stuart and his MQA approach. MQA is great - I love it - Archimago must be wrong because according to him, it can't be. Basically you said the Emotiva digital filter was simply incompetent - hardly a comment to keep Keith in on the conversation. I am an electrical engineer, but admittedly I degreed before personal computers and about the time of ss devices taking over for tubes. So even though I have forgotten more mathematics than most of you were ever exposed to , I struggle to absorb this level of technical discussion. I would trust the people active in the industry now, developing products, to be better informed and more capable than any part time reviewer or hobbyist. Second time you attack Amir.Try to talk civil or take cold shower if you can´t handle this. Ridiculous attacks from "electric engineer", more like angry teenager. Is this forum not moderated? People raging against new members and against person who are doing everyone a favour showing how these products measure in real life. Amir doesn`t have anything against Emotiva or any other company. He have actually helped to make products better as some companies have come forward to him. And he definitely isn`t some sunday hobbyist either. Why lonnie won´t contact Amir for clearing up the differences in measurements? Lonnie is still ASR member, right? There is clearly some errors by your part in the measured data. Example post #362: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/emotiva-rmc-1-av-processor-review.11673/page-19#post-337955Amir has also agreed to measure the product in your hands. He said; Regardless, there is an easy path to resolve this. They send me the unit they tested and I re-run my measurements on that. We don't need a third-party to run any test or get in the middle of this. Objective data can be confirmed easily if one of us has access to both units to test side-by-side.
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 26, 2020 18:52:25 GMT -5
Man, I thought the Emo kool-aid drinkers here can be painful, but the Amir worshippers take it to another level.
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,495
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Post by LCSeminole on Feb 26, 2020 19:05:35 GMT -5
Man, I thought the Emo kool-aid drinkers here can be painful, but the Amir worshippers take it to another level. The way I see things, if you don’t feed the fire, then it won’t burn long..
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,223
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Post by novisnick on Feb 26, 2020 19:13:29 GMT -5
Man, I thought the Emo kool-aid drinkers here can be painful, but the Amir worshippers take it to another level. The way I see things, if you don’t feed the fire, then it won’t burn long.. Post of the month! 😁
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,495
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Post by LCSeminole on Feb 26, 2020 19:26:47 GMT -5
********************************************New Members Please Read********************************************
I would like say this to all of you brand new members that have registered here just to promote the RMC-1 ASR Review. This isn't the ASR Forum, and while I'm not familiar with your Forums Rules, I am very familiar with our "Lounge Rules of Etiquette". If you are going to continue to post here as a member you need to respect our rules, just as you would expect our members to respect your Forums Rules. Below is a copy of the "Lounge Rules of Etiquette", please read and familiarize yourself with these, they are pretty much self explanatory. Welcome to the Lounge!!!.....and thank you for your cooperation!.....The Moderation Team
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1. Please keep the discussion focused. Topics outside the scope of a given thread may be moved, locked, or simply deleted at our discretion. For off topic subjects, please use the Green Room.
2. Please use the search function before posting; your question may have been previously answered.
3. Be nice to each other and respect the moderators. Profanity, insults, knocking other brands, and generally rude behavior will not be tolerated. Period. Opinions are welcome, not bad behavior.
4. If you have a problem with another member, please turn to a moderator for help.
5. Do not spam. Also, we do not tolerate blatant advertising. Telling your buddies about a great product is one thing, but this is not a store front for another brand.
6. No cross posting. Please post your message once to the appropriate forum and nowhere else.
7. Use a title that describes the content of your post. Don't use all caps or special characters to draw attention.
8. Multiple registrations are prohibited and are grounds for immediate account deletion.
9. Please read the Emporium rules before advertising gear in the Emporium.
10. Instructions from the moderator team are to be followed. Period.
11. Discussion and opinions are welcome, but we must insist on civility. It’s really simple: Treat others as you would wish them to treat you.
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 26, 2020 19:37:52 GMT -5
[The way I see things, if you don’t feed the fire, then it won’t burn long.. What?!?!! No way. Normally you have to pay top dollar to get this quality entertainment and here they're just giving away their best gold material. I'm going to be sad when they think they've won the battle and move on to defend the hive against the next entity who dares disagree with His Reverence.
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klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,744
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Post by klinemj on Feb 26, 2020 19:42:20 GMT -5
An example of an issue that just shows sheer incompetence Please read the forum rules. Insults like you are making have me surprised you are only at 50% warning. If I were a moderator, you would be banned. Now, once again - you don't like what you see in the RMC-1...go buy something else. You've made your point with repetitive posts. Insults and repeatedly banging the same drum are not welcome here. Mark
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 26, 2020 21:19:22 GMT -5
While it's nice of him to point out Emo incompetence, oddly enough he completely ignores Amir's incompetence.
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Post by hytram on Feb 27, 2020 0:33:46 GMT -5
I was thinking of buying the NAD T578(?) the AVR with Dirac.. Anywho not a lot of in-depth reviews about it but it was tested on Audio Science Review
The thread was About 7 or 12 pages long and no one actually mentioned how it sounded... No one!
Only how it measured..
I don't buy Hifi/AV gear to measure I buy it to listen too
Measurements are important, but how it sounds is far more important, I think ASR was probably set up for the right intentions but its ideology has just ruined it..
It's as much a religion as audiophilism can be.
But it's science and it's proven they say, but most people shouting that are taking one person measurements and taking that as law
That's not science, that's dangerous
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Post by alexreusch on Feb 27, 2020 1:28:30 GMT -5
The stereo reference by-pass mode (all analog from input to output) of the RMC_! does out perform an Apple dongle now. Sorry, I meant the digital input with the least amount of processing enabled. If we are talking analog only I'd expect something in the range of 105dB SINAD. I don't get it... Since you own already a superior external DAC ( "I'm already running a DAC that with THD+N slightly above 0.0001% with all the nasty stuff below -130dB."), why are you bothering to even use the digital input and it's internal DAC of the RMC-1? Simply use the analogue balanced XLR outputs of your external DAC as a source for HiFi stereo music for the RMC-1 and set it to "Reference Stereo Mode". Look, I will do the same thing. I currently own a multi-channel preamp based on the praised ESS chip. But I also had the chance to hear the RMC-1 multiple times. I can guarantee you, the RMC-1 outperforms my current ESS multichannel system for movies. But for music, I also use a superior external stereo DAC, and I am sure that the RMC-1 will work great as a stereo preamp. But I will stay analogue in that discipline on the RMC-1.
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